My digital producer and cohost is here bringing in all of your feedback and holy cow is there a lot of feedback. As you can imagine. This is probably the most divisive show we have done in a long time. The type of responses are extremely emotional. And a lot of people are not happy we are doing the show. I gotta honor that voice, first up lauren, i am quite certain these mens rights activists got all the air time they needed last month after the usc b shooting. Allison says i will not be tuning in tonight. I have no use for organizations that give voice to bigots. And mark says, its a good question, the question is not whether or not its tile for a mens movement, its what the movement, what attempt to achieve, we heap to answer that, mark. Weve lost fathers tweeting in. Jorge says many of us fathers do more for our children than state, federal government think we do. There is too much emphasis on the dead beats and the rolling stones, as you can imagine today is going to be hot. Yeah. And we want to make sure that we keep making that distinction. The Mens Rights Movement and the fathers Rights Movement both in the show, both consider themselves different organizations. Right. The global Mens Rights Movement is the in the spotlight after revelation that his the u. K. Santa barbara shooter was part of this controversial online universe. While their rhetoric is seen costly and destructive but they are growing, they say they are being stripped of their rights. Critic sides the movement is being driven by ma song any and worry that some members have radical views. One of the groups called a voice for men was forced to switch venues for a conference that they wanted to hold in detroit after public backlash in an onlinechange. Org petition. What type of mends are behind the movement are concerned overblown or on point . Joining us to discuss this from washington, d. C. Is robert ohare action u. S. News director for a voice for men. One of the largest mens rights organizations. And so skype out of chicago, illinois, david a critic of the Mens Rights Movement. And he is also founder of the blog, we hunted the mammoth. Thanks for both of you for being here. So robert, men dominate in american politics, and business, they out earn women by about 20 and have always been afforded rights that women have had to earn along the way. Why does america need a mens rights group . Men make up 85 of all suicides, they make up almost 90 of the homeless, they make up 95 of workplace deaths. Men die on average seven years earlier than women do in years past that wasnt necessarily the case, the gap was much less. There is a war being waged upon system. They are failing miserably. No one is doing anything about it. And there is a terrible, terrible bias in our family courts as well as terrible disparities in criminal sentences and prosecution between minute and women. Robert, you brought up a whole lot of things there. Are those all because of women and the right that women have . Are are these simply functions in saturday and gains in the societal system . Both. There is Warren Farrell who is going to be speaking at the upcoming mens issues conference in detroit, michigan at the understand of that month, said it best, he said that no society has ever survived without making men disposable. And this carry on his throughout history, actually. And its the idea of the disposable male is something thats its something thats very important and isnt talked about much. So you have that working against men. But also feminism has basically entrenched itself in our education system, our Family Law Court system, and in the media. And whenever men speak up as men about problems they face as men, you see an immediate backlash. What we are seeing right now with the ascendancy of mens voices in talking about these problems that they face. David, you have been writing about Roberts Group for years. And from the writings of yours that i have read. You feel that they primarily target and harass women. What led to you that conclusion . Well, when i first started looking in to the Mens Rights Movement i thought they were essentially a group of people who were perhaps misinformed and obsessed with some issues that such as wage gap between men and women and that they have decided does not exist. And but as i got more in to understanding the movement i realized that most of the issues, including the issues that were just raised, are not really what is driving most of the men in the movement. I mean, they will talk about male suicides or workplace deaths, but if you look at the track record of the Mens Rights Movement over the last five years, say, they have done actually nothing to address those particular issues or indeed most of the issues that they bring up that they claim are whats motivating them. And they dont look in to the cause of workplace deaths, they dont look at what groups are organizing to work on workplace safety. Certainly unions work on this a lot. I have seen really any understanding of what can be done to address these issues. And the reason for that is that these issues are not the real issues that are motivating the people. What they the mens right movement has come up with is a laundry list of talking points that they will repeat online and on programs like this that when you get right down to it the people who start the talking points dont know that much about it. In fact if you look at what is discussed on mens on a voice for men and on the red its mens rights forum, which is probably the largest one online , its hatred of women and hatred of feminists. You talk about feminists we are already heard today some say feminist is to blame to the weakening and disempowerment of men. Feminism sports the mens right activists. Mens right activists just hate women too much to notice it. On facebook, chris says testimony pitch includes many of the issues that m r. A. S have especially regarding equal treatment. So robert, does mens rights have to come at the expense of womens rights and feminism. I need to make something some things clear we are not misogynistic there are well every bit as concerned about the issues concerning boys and men that the men are. I need to clear up something else. Elliot rodgers did not have a single thing to do with the en in less a Rights Movement. There was absolutely no connection between elliot roger and my mens rights organization. That, that conception is a result of yellow journalism that actually, he was part of a pick up group which is considered a subgroup of a mens rights activist group. That had nothing to do with mens right movement. Absolutely nothing. You said that he was part of the same universe is a better way to put it. Because he did not specifically identify himself as a mens rights activist, but he was part of this online subculture of ma song any that the mens right movement is a major contributor to. One of your groups stated objective is to push to an end of rape hysteria. Recorrect will you you told an al jazerra report their this whole rape thing has been used by fin 30s to garner power and money, its a scam. Do you think women are lying when they report rape . I think women who journal are raped and report it are not lying. I think there is a huge false reporreporting of rape in our society. Its huge. There is no people who analysisly accuse other people of Sexual Assault pay no consequences for what they do and studies have shown its oftentimes used as a way to get out of an awkward social situation, lets get back to the firm niche. What studies have shown that. There are no study that his have shown that. There are two huge studies george cane inning midwest sound in the 80s shows this is a study thats been rejoked by virtually everyone in the profession. In what projection . No social science. I dont think so. Researched in to rape. Its one of the few studies that mens rights activists site simply because this agrees with their preconceptions of what is going on. There are lots of other statistic that his we can site as well. Those studies suggest that the actual percentage of false rape accusations is somewhere between 2 and 8 , somewhere in that ballpark. Its impossible to know for sure. When they talk about this, they take on a whole other level of magnitude and there is no one else who has done studies on this who has done serious studies on this that has found anything remotely like that. Lets assume what you are saying is true. And lets also take a look at whats happened in the our legal system in recent years. We have taken away all kind of due process, for people, men accused of Sexual Assault. This is wrong. This results in innocent men going to jail. [speaking at the same time] lets. Lets stop right there, rob better. If machine is rested i want to get back on track here. Robert, you have made some really controversial statements about women faking rape, using it as political maneuvering, use it is as a way to get money. Of course you are going to get a reaction to that. It feels like now that we are on television you are backing off of that a little bit. Oh, no, i am not. Lets make a distinct between firm 30 groups and women. Feminists have used the subject of rape. They have expanded the definition of rape, and they have exan eighted the i stance of rape to say basically one in four, one in five, one in three women are the victims of rape in lifetime. One in four women will be raped before they graduate from college its not true and its used to generate hysteria and. [speaking at the same time] gather ma money and political power. They get these statistics from the government. No, they get them from other feminists . No. Yes, they do. Three women are killed every day by domestic partner or former domestic partner. Thats not the creation of a feminist group these are real statistics that we should talk about. Who said that . Which study are you talking about . The department of justice reports that every day three women are killed in america by a domestic partner or former domestic partner. Thats a fact. Okay, thats three women in america. There is 365, 385 Million People in america right now. I am just saying if you are going to throw out these kind of numbers and facts and then accuse feminists or womens groups of falsifying them, we need to know how you back that up. I would like to get back to this issue of feminists exploiting the issue you of rape for money and gain. I have a friend of mine who is quite involved in rape advocacy, she does it for free as a volunteer, as a rape rice us crisis counselor. What she does is helps when someone is coming forward to report a rape she goes to the hospital, she sits with them for hours often in the middle of the night, trying to help them get through the complicated bureaucracy, trying to help them as they report the rape to the police and trying to give them support. There is she gains nothing momonetarily from this. And the organization that she is a part of is essential a feminist organization, but in addition to helping out women who are victims of rape, they also help out men who are victims of rape and my friend sometimes when shes not working as a volunteer volunteering as a crisis counselor helps to coordinate the other crisis counselors and so essentially what she is doing is shes getting. [speaking at the same time] let me get . Community in real quick. We have men responding. Brad says this is a reaction air movement in response to, lease, extreme feminism. Christian says these are misogynist reactionaries that must be exposed for what they are and stopped by any effective members. So as we have seen, its hot. All right, robert we have about 20 seconds before we have to end this block. Your Group Complains a lot about women. What has it done for men . We advocate for male fertility control. We have gotten some headway on that. There is gel being clinically tested next year which will provide fertility control for men, a discreet very tilt control for men the first time we have ever seen that. Your group has nothing to would that . Yes, we do. Whawhat has your group done. We have helped raise thousands of dollars for research for that. Our time is up. Thank you, robert and david. We appreciate both of your insights. For that segment. Divorce is never an easy process, specially with the children in the mix. But with our current family law system are men getting the shortened of the stick . The government that came in wont allow the people to speak up. John stewart and Maziar Bahari the film is about democratization of information the fight for free journalism. These regimes are aresting more and more people. Primetime news only on Al Jazeera America welcome back. We are discussing the various ways men are organizing to demand what they feel are deprived rights. The fathers Rights Movement is largely concerned with equal treatment of men in child custody cases and many say it should not be confused with the broadest Mens Rights Movement. On june 13th they they would a rallies across the country including in front of Capital Building in washington, d. C. Demanding their rights on what he this called national fatherless day. Here to discuss more out of new york is mark green, sr. Editor of the good men project, a website devoted to discussing masculinity in the 21st century. On skype from washington is Brandon Lions a family reform advocate and Claire Huntington a professor at the Fordham Law School and also author of the book failure to flourish how law undermines family relationships thank you for all being here. We are just come out of a really contentious segment extreme views being throne around with the Mens Rights Movement. What is the fathers Rights Movement and how is it different . I would like to be very clear in saying that the fathers Rights Movement is a vast and Diverse Movement with a lot of different voice voices and it iy similar to what you find in the feminist movement. And m r. A. S if they do have a place in that discussion make up a very small part of that. They represent the kind of binary discussions that arent going to carry us forward. They may make news, and they may get people motivated and tweet and make comments on facebook but they will not rep resolve the questions of how we can best help our children once they are children of divorce. Claire, one of the issues that the fathers Rights Movement frequently brings up is the court system, child custody system is weighted in favor of mothers. Does the court system favor women . Thats a good question. If you just looked at the statistics of where children end up after divorce, you would certainly think that because children are overwhelmingly either have primary custody or most of their time with the mothers not with the fathers. But it is not true at least on its face that the law discriminates against fathers. We used to have something called the tender years presumption which said very Young Children should be placed with their mothers. We have done away with that now and both mothers and fathers are equal candidates, that doesnt necessarily mean they get custody. Libel i said they dlike i said p with mothers as opposed to fathers overwhelmingly. But that doesnt necessarily mean courts discriminate against father. Fathers do three times as much childcare as fathers in the 1960s, they still do less. Both work about the same number of hours in terms of paid work, total number of hours, but when you divide that up between paid and unpaid, mothers are doing far more unpaid childcare, housework, than fathers, and so its not necessarily surprising that children are ending up with the person who has done more of the care for them while the marriage was ongoing. Jorge a Community Member thinks there is a bias, hes a father thats been through the system. He tweets mens rights is about fairness in being dealt with this courts there is a bias that puts men in jail without trying during divorce, culture plays a role. A father might be struggling providing for his family is seen as not a good dad and most time a fathers role is ignored. Brandon, you have been through the system. Look, has our legal system evolved and adapt today the adapted to the modern understanding of fatherhood . No, it hasnt. A lot of that comes from the fact that when you are talking about a twoparenting system its looked at like an accessory rather than something that you absolutely need. So when you first start the initial process of separation, whether you are just in a regular relationship or married, you really are dealt a lot of the bad laws if you are a noncustodial parent. And first of all, they make one person right off the bat a noncustodial parent and then you are faced with a lot of birds from child court when you are still trying so hard to be a fulltime active parent. You are dealt with having to go to court and most of the scenarios mean that you dont have the money to even finance those, you know, a lawyer or the days off that it takes to make that happen. So you are really put in a bad position to move forward and become a fulltime parent and you are really at a disadvantage to becoming, you know, the parent that you want to be. That you aim to be and that you were when you are in a relationship. Brandon, you were actually a construction worker and you switched to becoming a family law advocate after your fight to be in your daughter life. What was more difficult for you as be unmarried dad in fighting for custody for your child than it may have been for a couple that had gotten divorced . Well, i think like a lot of fa thirds out there you go through a time in, my scenario when my daughters mother was going to school, i was naive enough to think that we would stick with the status quo of coparenting on a daily basis, and i think thats what a lot of people arent aware of. And when i fell in to that situation obviously we had been split up for a long time, to try to correct that and to try to get acknowledgment for the hard work that you do, is something that for one you dont think about, and one you arent keeping track of unless people are knowledgeable about the system. And this is just another issue that goes on with, you know, Equality Movement or fathers Rights Movement to his try to gain or give people the knowledge that they need to empower them to have those capabilities to make sure that they keep records. Claire, your research actually shows that married and unmarried fathers are treated differently. What drew you to that conclusion . Yeah, well, first of all there are different laws on the books. So in 15 states if a child is born to unmarried parents the mother automatically has full custody of the child. And the father has to go to court in order to secure some custody for that child. And as brandon was saying, that can be incredibly difficult. Lawyers are expensive. In many states most people going through a family court are unrepresented. Often on both sides, both mothers and fathers dont have lawyers. And courts are also just an extraordinarily difficult place to resolve these really tricky issues. We can talk about that in a minute courts versus other systems. But certainly the law for unmarried fathers they treat unmarried fathers differently than married fathers signing parental rights that typically married fathers there is a legal presumption that if a child is born within a marriage fathers have rights, unmarried fathers dont always have that presumption. And custody is an enormous issue that they dont either they dont formally get custody or they have to go to court and fight for it. And many of them just dont, and as a result, it means that the mothers become the de facto Decision Maker about whether or not a father can see a child. And mothers may keep the children away from fathers for very good reasons if there is Domestic Violence in the past or they may keep them away for somewhat less sympathetic reasons. We have a lot of fathers chiming in. Those of dollars spent the mother has all the power, courts help the mother alienate the father. When question come back, one of the things that we want to talk about is the de facto decision if the de facto decision by the court should actually be joint custody. Well ask claire about that. And talk about some legislative activity in favor of dads. We are seeing movement i in a number of states what, it means to the future of the of family law and child custody. Well see you in two minutes. Welcome back. We are discussing the fathers Rights Movement. And claire, before the break, you mentioned that it seems like its often the de facto decision of the court to side with the mother for custody. Should the courts be gender blind and look at both sides equally . Right. Well, what i said is that children were more likely end up with their mothers but thats not because courts are biased for mothers they are recreating the situation that the family had before the break up where the mother did more child caring than the father. But in terms of de facto child custody it sound good on paper its not necessarily a good idea. Certainly both parents should be candidates for custody and the idea should be to try and maintain a relationship between both children. But between both parents and the child. But to have a presumption in favor of joint custody, can raise all kind of concerns, especially if there is violence in the past. Whole bunch of community feedback, lisa. Gerald on twitter says if unmarried fathers have to pay Child Support they should have the same rights at married fathers. In most states mothers whether married or not are considered the primary parent not the father. And in paternity custody and support, the matters the court automatically assumes the woman is an angel when many times she isnt. Mark i want to get new this conversation. From the good men project, et cetera lets move forward. This does this have to lead to a gender war or can there be a meet in this middle between both parents for the best interests of the kid . How do we achieve that . Whats remarkable for me here in this conversation is we have we are talking about fathers rights to have access and be engaged in their childs ar lives and the whole 20 minutes now has been about courts and law. Which implies a divisive and conflicted view of divorce. Culturally we need a discussion about divorce where we destigmatize it, where people arent automatically and by default put in to a mind set where they have to go to war with their spouse in order to determine the outcome. And one of the big challenges that people who are men who are raising their kids, stay at home fathers, which some sources say the numbers as many as 7 million fathers now, is that as soon as the issue you of divorce arises, as soon as a as soon as a couple of decides their marriage is not going to be sustainable. The implication is that the family has collapsed and it has not. Families can continue to function and operate, coparenting a rain little and coparenting partnerships can a actually revive the sense for a child that their family is vital and living and going forward. Good note to end this on. Thanks to youll of our guests, david, robert, claire, mark green, and Brandon Lyons until next time, we will see you online. Real reporting that brings you the world. 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