Hello and welcome to the program. Im how much im june. The United Nations peacekeeping mission has been around for more than 60 years. And that time, its helped many countries transition from conflict to peace and stability. Its troops are deployed by Member States, a number in the 10s of thousands. But theres a growing pushback against the blue helmets, especially in africa, where some host nations say theyve lost confidence in their mission. Democratic republic of congo is among those calling for their withdrawal. Who have already sent unpacking . Critics, a peacekeeping needs reform. All other say it does important work despite its shortcomings. Well get the thoughts of our guest in a moment. But 1st, this report from phantom on un peacekeepers have been deployed to democratic republic of congo for around a quarter of a century. A large part of their mandate is to protect civilians from armed groups. But now the comedies present says theyve failed in their mission and wants them gone. You live, i deeply. It is to be deployed. Thats a peacekeeping mission is deployed for 25 years, and the democratic republic of congo have failed to cope with the rebellions and Armed Conflicts which are tearing apart the region, need north to protect the civilian population. They knew many civilians in d r c. Feel the same way. Earlier this month, the protesters demanded the peacekeepers go take use, do you end up doing little to protect them . The Congolese Army cleared the demonstrations. 43 people were killed. You wouldnt peacekeepers and also went out there. Welcome elsewhere. They left to don star for region and 2021 at the urging of the government. And molly has become one of the latest countries to the man they pull out. The un has admitted to shortcomings, but says without peacekeepers, things will be much worse. Growing divisions among Member States combined with the increased complexity of todays conflicts poses a formidable challenge to peacekeeping and the girl, the task of maintaining the decent, secure test. I encourage you to consider the alternative and to have me to imagine how these situations with evolve is peacekeepers were not present to undertake these certainly efforts. 6 in many places, mercenaries are filling the void, including those russians. Wagner, group and as criticism of Un Peacekeeping gross critics, a reforms are needed in order to overcome this crisis of confidence. Been monahan for inside story the. All right, lets go and bring in our guests in new york was a condo executive director at the Head Institute and a former special adviser to the president of molly and london, tara oconnor founder and executive director at africa, risk consulting, and in geneva. Okay, a couple of a former you in resident entry, monetary and coordinator for suzanne. The one. Welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. Um okay, so let me start with you today. So the r c is set to begin discussions with you and authorities for an accelerated withdrawal of un peacekeepers from december 2024, to december 2023. I want to get your impressions as far as if you think that as a realistic timeline, why not . Its good, so yeah. So i think that can do it. I dont think its going to make much difference to the situation on the ground. Theres the to leave some months early or something. Okay, so let me also ask you, uh, you know, Un Peacekeeping missions and after are coming under a lot of criticism, you, of course, have experience as a un peacekeepers in sudan. Um, are you in peacekeeping missions actually working anymore . They used to work when the bought uh much more comprehensive the operations. Uh, which made the piece which took the key piece and was bitch the piece. But in recent decades, debit gone from them and did not be as well. Resource as been made to of course, really know much about caught on some world where that keeps providing the peacekeepers on the nations funding them are longer had. So they are more and more effective and i think that should be put out to them is the most um, un peacekeepers have also worn out their welcome. In other places theyve left to them star for region to 2020 at the urging of the government. Molly is now the latest country to them and they pull out. I want to ask you, what do you think will happen in molly . Once peacekeepers pull out. Oh, thank you so much. Uh, since they decisions the window they mention is from molly. Uh, were still having a lot of things going on. So as we mentioned it, we have different realities according to the countries and it gives you according to conflicts. Also the case of molly, the un mission was, will compile the they, they, they area where the different and us get fathers, the former rebill groups now to send it to the, of the Peace Agreement in the governmental model. So now combined is by right after them it is my history, a little problems in the field then. Reality and see what municipal was bringing for the piece. Is that the, the in the country most uh, let me also ask you from your vantage point. What exactly is the alternative here . If peacekeepers continue to pull out, is that going to pay the way potentially for private armies just to take over more and more. I mean, who, who fills the void in this instance . So now before you read the dimension, uh, uh, withdrawing from molly, the government managed to migrate and transition and no authority to star recruiting a lot of my got a military person. Those if you have seen in the past couple of miles, but the problem itself is the question of the presence of the un keeping missions in model. Because when we finish at the beginning with the monday of 42100. 00 events. Uh it started changing and the objective also start changing. And finally the just relies. It is not necessary to have 16000 people in the ground and not even starting what people expect from this mission. So feeling the got by them, so by the transition and megan hobby is the one point to also the different partners, as they said, uh, even some se, buckner groups. And might even say the restaurant centers is kind of feeling. Youve got these empty spaces, letting by dimensions. Sir, i want to speak more specifically about the issue of you in peacekeepers and the d. R. C. The presence of you in, in new york, it has become increasingly unpopular in recent years. Critics say thats due to a failure of un peacekeepers to protect civilians from violence. Now, earlier this month, protests are demanded. The peacekeepers go, they have accused that you end up doing little to protect in the congo. These army cleared demonstrations. Dozens of people were killed. What is the current level of anger about the presence of you and peacekeepers in d, r c . And how exactly did we get to this point . Well, i think it does take the levels to bind girl pretty high and you know, which is that she led to this cool for rapids withdrawal. I think what you have to look at where we got to and, and how this came about. And i mean, if we look at the origins of the mission to come go, it was at a very particular time when the country was actually imploding. And there was a significant risk that it would split apart. But definitely over the years that the u. N. Has been the is its ability to actually deal and to improve the security for civilians has been severely and pat. Its also, you know, the terrain is impossible. The region is largely pretty much from a Military Point to view lots, the ungovernable because of its boss size because of the, the poor city of infrastructure. And also because of the, i think the results are lack of willingness amongst the lack of commitment and to really deal with the massive problems to the eastern eastern congo faces. I mean, you know, without actually ever having, you know what, you know when you havent been there, as i, as i have, it is extraordinary to think about the size of the area the, the, the un forces meant to govern. Its impossible. Yeah. Its a i want to follow up with you and ask you about the fact that the u. N. A has admitted to shortcomings, but theyve also said that without peacekeepers in these areas, things would be much worse from your vantage point. What did you say to them . I think thats supposed to be true, but that they all going to be replaced as far as i understand it by a Regional Force of military from the regions. And im, i dont think they will necessarily fire any better. And the real risk is that you will get much more profiteering as we sold before the u. N. Force came in because youre talking also about an area that has a numerous mineral wealth, but many, many countries, many region know players and many countries have a great deal of interest in that goes cables and further south in d. C cop. Uh, and so no one has to guard against that. But i do think this is also comes into a context of political context to cheer political context that we have to take into account to. And that is where African Leadership is seeking African Solutions for african problems. And so the, you know, the, you and the departure for molly from congo and replacement with local forces or Regional Forces. Im seems to me to be the next step most. There are a analyst, an expert to a blamed the lack of success of peacekeeping forces in africa on the operational mandates of the missions in africa. And theyve said that those mandates restrict the forces activities. What do you say to that . So this is actually a really great depression, and honestly about it understand the end in the queue around the un mission as well as like we just mentioned about what happening in the, in the code from your question. The same thing happened into molly a bunch of the days where Mission Personnel were involved in the lot of candles, including sexual scandals and also the context reality 5. So that maybe people in pollution wondering a lot of patients why these guys are here. Even they are not really didnt you . I didnt find them through conflict and also to see the fire and you have seen in the case of molly demanded when really not just the whole. And even the definition of why this 15000 people more than that because 15200 something. What in mind didnt even not eligible to be whatever wed expect from them in terms of uh, what would be showing this stuff in addition of it is the turning of the national forces. But the past couple of miles before dimensional weight. 50 molly, do you envision it with a new face . The much more money and the resist is on the truck man. Area. Been busy keeping. So we already know the u. N. A has already adjust the as focusing on this area. As also the government of molly in and local public to reach is, are working to do the same. So now, if the money is going to this, to these areas, are they really going to a peacekeeping mission . So does that mean really, very complex and very and argumentative around whats going on here . The other side, about emission for like when you take such a part of the world, what dimensions be like a dictate mean . One of the bridge reality in, in the conversation ended right just in this countrys location most uh, actually uh, in his answer brought up one of the points that i wanted to ask you about it. And thats about the fact that peacekeeping forces have also been accused in the past of committees. Human rights abuses, including pervasive allegations of sexual abuse and exploitation. There have been you in investigations into these allegations, but they, they rarely lead to prosecution. How much have scandals like that tainted these pieces, keeping missions, i think, scandals like that on the computer. Impunity that comes off to that. How does a so think brought to thank god name to such operations. You know, its not really the you in the come on sold because the, so it does come from many different countries. And there you go to those countries and the purchases off of accountability and just as a take place in those countries. But very often the countries are a shame, what happens they are kind of embarrassed, they protect their own kind and the poor and gets the blame for that. So i blame not the us, but i blame the, the big country so we should be skipped. This come all come different to be to full says bill discipline and the people playing the blame of which is like bob, the rich does up me blame. What do you know when the, when the soldiers. Oh, well, no countries for me to these kinds of if use is difficult to know, but that was worse than that. So it was a bit to goes to those countries as to why the lot of these, this one does it, but is disciplined filled minus. So just to take part and be sensitive operations. Okay, if i could just follow up with you. Uh, but there is still a criticism by many that say that whether or not its local forces who may be committing those crimes. They do say, and they blamed that you in for not really doing enough to make sure that people are the people are actually being put on trial. Uh they say that theres very little accountability. What do you say to that . Certainly from my time in the, in the you, in system, in a number of different uh, positions. Then you in the past crime, then un has made representations to the country as well. Citizens can be described, you know, that you want. It doesnt have a quote sitting in new york, youll be able to do these kinds of things. It is true that sometimes when you, when the leadership are often the us, they just shipped, im still stuck, pretty general downwards. Is to timorous in terms of the saying 2 countries, which im misbehaving as to that, that they should not to do that. And then then off site sions that can be deployed against those countries. Like sort of no more peacekeepers from those countries that has actually happened. For example, the government is coming to no longer the blogs or certain units from certain countries will no longer be deployed. Then thats a very, very good thing. But this issue a whole kind of the birth date is not just unique peacekeeping. It is thought of a general climate. Impunity, the effects my name or the other areas in relation to present security. Im associated to, it shows the standards in gusting from toppled around, but it wont affect demik where, where, where, what goes, what goes, where it was, where it would be processed in return for jobs in organizations. So. So in that sense, many took a bigger view and then look at why they complement it is like, its easy to blame, but you, when s the central come on back onto the dont have the means and tools at the disposal to be uh, do a new stop at tara, it looked like you were reacting to quite a bit of what my cache was saying that i wanted to give you an opportunity to help sent yes, i mean, i think there is a question of it, of accountability. It goes back to the original financing. It goes back to financing of these operations, where to some extent youve got the global knowles as its becoming moon really funding label. Because most of the financing comes from very wealthy g 7 and g, g 7, countries to finance in pool countries for countries treats to be up to leading these peacekeeping operations. Whereas, you know, what you really want for peacekeeping operations is professionally trained peacekeeping operations that just do that. So i think the, the financing, the stuffing, the training and the operations of probably need to face for full. And i mean, this being Un Peacekeeping forces being asked to leave is a crisis and confidence in the you as the but you have got this know, the, you know, financing from the global troops from the, from the imaging market. Countries in the countries with a, a that students have the tools, all the training and all the equipment, and certainly in east and congo. Do you know its a very of the, the infrastructure is just not the need. The ability to protect people requires all because much small aerial, uh, uh, cave capacity and thats what we see enormously expensive and im very difficult to run a. So i think a lot of referral is required without throwing out the would that throwing out the u. N. Peace keeping missions, i think they, they just need upgrade a. Uh huh. Uh most, uh, i wanna ship focus here a little bit to, to something that was brought up a little bit earlier in the show. Um, you know, in many places we or are you in peace keepers have either left or are considering leaving mercenaries are filling the void. Were talking about everybody from Russias Wagner group to other groups as well. Uh, wagner has worked for governments and militarys in Central African republic, libya. Molly, sedan, exciting rebel groups there. Um, what is the outlook if this continues before that i want to like, uh about what my police say about the accountability ended sensibility of uh, disorders and how to take them out from the minutes my had i, i completely disagree with this because this really the reason im not. If the notifications they are supposed to be highly babbled missions to our country for when the right we see them as an invasion of forces. Because you might know you have already very more of your government expanding. The government is not following the government stage and the government up for an hour. And 15000 people come to help the government and also create a system which we defend them to. What we call the categories because there was no be built after the signature of the agreement. So that means the government ended, the former rebuild the groups on bills, groups i dont know or in fact, so the ones who are fighting the government, ive got to do the groups and even it doesnt suffice. So the question is, why the mission . The stage in the city is s as the same as is the same area. What i fucking and pushing and pressuring the population. And it can affect back and even the outside in the box. So this is what we should learn from in moving forward, different what this mission to go forward and about the integrity and honesty in this origins also is not just about the countries providing much, did it to our country is as you envision, which is a Global Organization to maintain and also protect civilians all around the world as weve seen, divisions in other parts of the world. So they have kind of presented us was that really t on the network as well. So just when they accept to send them and if its not about sending a family, i mean its a document is also about following up. And when i scan does happen, you should have your procedures and protocol to make Justice Blake justice as evidence in your situation. No, otherwise theres itself cannot do some sort of crosses or procedures. It gains the by the person, the field. So how can you imagine if the, from definitive in molly or, you know, for involving to make justice for them. So they can not because theyve got the whole, the procedure to slow and its happening in new york city. So just all the things you run up to be very careful when defending by selecting people. Just been in a few minutes. The money that you sent me to or to engage with either by any means fortuitous groups in the field most. Uh, im sorry to interrupt you, let me stop you there. Ill get back to you with my original question in a minute, but i do see more cash reacting to what youre saying. So im going to give you a chance to jump in to talk just inside. Its great in an ideal world, but uh, we have to understand that the peacekeepers have diplomatic immunity, yukon. Just follow the impulse, the crime scene where theyve committed to suck to these or whatever, and bring them to me all the time to put them up one. But its not cool that there is no present, there is no process. So, you know, we must not let the countries get away with this. The past is that many developing countries use the contributions of these keep us as a way of earning revenue. And the cost of good money for every soldier this set to send up. And so what, yeah, subsidizing the quotes is back home. All the peacekeepers, austin, because of the, a part Getting Space for which that comes sometimes very often the find as much as they put it says or does it somewhere else or other than the back of the country creating the tools and may have so i dont think that to this isnt entirely a matter of a, but you wouldnt be having the, in the response of the, its a, its a combination of the 2. Maybe we need good need International Call time in need other to be sure process as we building this morning in terms of just disappointing these people. And thats why i think code quite honestly, but now were moving into Regional Peace keeping more and more because nobody wants to be a variety of this conflict. So mm. Okay, montgomery. So im sorry, im sorry to interrupt you as well, but, but we dont have a lot of time left. I do want to get back to mussa tara, i see that you want to jump in as well. Ill get to you in just a minute. Most of i do so want to ask you, i want to ask you just a few moments ago, which is, what will the implications be if we start seeing more of these mercenary groups, these private armies going into these countries . So, so 1st of all, people are looking for solutions and it would be probably the army is, are, it would be viruses do for the price, includes our country is like legally because each end to is 24. And while i have, while you bring the higher, missing the rates, as you said, and you mentioned in 20 different places. But now when divisions the Un International and mission failed, people and countries have to look for a to lucky because we cannot just seat and look at people dying. But the problem with this problem, it is also the door to report to anybody. So when it happens to your mind abuse suggestions me to get a report of the videos of the 42, no one. So this is a very dangerous situation and they also just problem it all means are missing this week, trying it again. The person will be implying that this is not a for me, the, because this is a business, this is not about you want to write this and about humanity. This is not about, this is a 100 present money related corporations. So the day you would not be there would be them on the, the, you would not be in the same page. Maybe that can be done just this, suggest on. So the implication of russia in this is this, uh, this is because the minutes of the holding up for a laptop in silver stay there is uh, a fuck new google. Great. And you just fill in the uh, dual credit from the government. Mm. So the government, yeah, yeah, yeah, and most, im sorry to cut you off again. Well, we just have a couple of minutes left. I know tara wants to jump in and tear. I also want to ask you about a point that most it was raising there, which is that, you know, there has been a lot of debate as to what laws cover, private armies. And if private armies are mercenary groups can actually be held to account when and if their fighters commit crimes. I mean, this is a real growing concern, right . You know, they govern, they loudly govern themselves. And as we have seen in, in, and we really have to look at a recent to not too distant in history, you look at sierra leon. If you look at the private military companies that go samples, that in my view, they actually excel rated. They increase the conflict because the main interest was to actually get paid us as was said earlier to get paid either in diamonds or we have a whole lot diamonds debacle. So its definitely n. Uh, we also see that the, the, the most res, where actually seeking how they were going to be paid, putting pressure on pressure on the various military contests that have now matched in model end inputting a file. So that should be paid directly, either concessions or action goals. So its um, you know, the commercial elements, the lack of accountability and also the effectiveness um we sold the time to wagner through it failed completely in capital. Got a, im a company in northern mozambique and what was required was a regional, a single country intervention by rerun the military single country and 2 bedroom to restore order to cover the got it effect to boost. Yes sir, i do apologize. We have run out of time, so were going to have to leave the conversation there. Thanks so much to all of our guests, most a condo to our oconnor, and well catch computers. And thank you to for watching. You can see the program again any time by visiting our website obviously, or dot com. And for further discussion, go to our Facebook Page at facebook dot com, forward slash ag inside storage. You can also during the conversation on text or handle is at a j inside store for me and how much im gentleman holding bye for now. The on the stories of hope and inspiration. Schultz documentaries from around the world that celebrates college and resilience in the times of time on the phone and on counting the cost, the Interest Rates may have paid. But where does that leave the finance against inflation wise . Prices in the philippines off storing, we speak to the nations finance minister plots of using promising workers would keep them in the jobs they can get counting the cost on our 0 the a, carrie, its on seminole, how the top story is on out. Is there the head of saddams routing counselors warning that the months long conflict in this country could spread to the why the region of the fact to all the hon says the fighting could spit into neighboring nations and lead to a broad humanitarian disaster. You spoke with alexs here was mike hannah on the sidelines of the un general assembly, which he addressed on thursday. Im the mother of course. Those games came from outside to den
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