By Geoffrey Roberts emeritus professor of history at the University College park, an author of sellers library, a dictator and says books, professor roberts, its great to talk to you in person this time. Thank you very much for your time. A frontier for an invitation. Now your book style is library. Ssl is to explore the intellectual life biography and i would say psychology of joseph stalin, whom you described as the 20th century, most self consciously intellectual dictator. And i think its a somewhat controversial undertaking in this day and age because in order to understand the evil one needs to engage with that rather than dismissed it and condemn it out of hand. Why did you decide to do it at this point of time . Well, what would you come on . The most important thing between this time about my book in the past on is that he wasnt intellectual. He was a man, man of ideas, as well as action he believed in the transformative power. While it is not just in terms of changing peoples consciousness, but in terms of tracking human nature and as accomplished, im off as the socialist, you know, he was committed not just to the transformation of he was the thought is, but the transformation of people including himself so, so easy, his engagement with books with reading, move up with ideas was a very, was a very profound. You guys were on the comp, im stand stone as a person. Also because time it has a political act to con, understand all the bad things that we associate with, with, with style is brutal dictatorship of the soviet union without understanding him as an intellectual. And i wrote this book because this seemed to me that this, the source piece is library and the book see rather than how we read them, how we mount them. It is the most amazing source. Its the most intimate source, the most from time useful source. The most revealing sol, so i feel like its an expiration of stones intellectual life is life as a reader. But its also an ex relation of installing as a political actor. He also describe this uh t shaped table in a, in the room where he died. As fact, with books manuscripts p o, because his personal library was very, very extensive. I wonder if looking at him through these lines has, has changed your own opinion of him as a personality or perhaps a may. Is your understanding of hes evil makes you a little bit more new ends. Yeah, absolutely. I wrote this book as she was okay. Ive written a number of books about style and not connected with story by want to write a wide range and book about stanley. But didnt really want to what, right i, i, biography. So it does seem to be an opportunity to see other kind of intellectual pull tre, intellectual box using this particular. So what was the actual but also very, very personal in a, in a very strange way. Sure. Yeah, but but, but what you do is i went to, i wrote wide ranging the textbook was i havent really fully comes tubs with colleagues as a person, though i see as, as a political like to. And so thats why i wrote this particular book. And yeah, it was, it was a journey of discovery as far as i was concerned. And i suppose the most important thing i discovered on that journey was that, okay, yes, you know, style name was the intellectual amount of ideas. A great read the. He was a communist, he was a marxist, right . But the thing, our discoveries, i didnt really understand before what the, he was a feeling intellect for, for the motional that some power, always audiology and politics. Right. And its not emotionality. The motional falls off. Hes audiology these politics, which enabled him to actually rule in the particular father and to pick tutorial, whether you could do something emotionality of style and as a, as a dictator. And in such a that, that what that was the crucial revelation. Somebody, they also have a point which id like to mention here because im actually in the book is that, you know, you might say, well, okay, so he was a feeling emotional intellectual. Would that be emotionality, comfortable . And he asked that question, i think, is that it coming from stallings early christian opry, before starting mostly developed monk safety was a deep christian. And i think that this is the transmission of stallings emotional, really just so you havent really deals to feed into his mouth as a communist the and socialist. Yeah, well i mean, many scholars before, you know that, that the, this a server and attitude towards marxism and socialism was simply, you know, another form of religion for a menu of the leaders or his time. Many bolsheviks at least now. Uh you, you mentioned that many or stalins books contain extensive markings reached to quote, to you reveal that he valued ideas as much as power. And that he was a true believer in the strength of the worth. And it reminds me of the opening verses of the bible in the beginning was the worth, which could also be translated as in the beginning was longer as the meaning making capacity. And i think it already partially answered my question, but i want to oppose it. And on the last, do you think there was something religious or newman thats about the way style is related to not just the ward but know which ignore this . Yeah. And just the truth of the point, you might be the last go. Those have noticed the connection between your stallings religious upbringing on these boxes. I think thats true, but i think the thing about the library is, is that you can actually see that in the soul says on the pages you can see solving spelling, 6 feet, savings. Yeah. Up, i suppose the other thing is that in kind of on a geologically, stalling definitively, did you know the break with his religious upbringing . Yeah. Stalling. Didnt see. Okay. Is that the magic marxist . He believed in the intrinsic and internal truth of marxism. But that wasnt for him. A mattress size, it was a mattress. What do you consider to be thought so scientific of absorbs of ation. Yeah. So yeah, that does an emotional connection between just on is the question, installing this as a communist. But at the intellectual crew, a connection is much less. It is much more tenuous. Now as you write in your book, like all the bolshevik liter style and believe that the reading could help transform know just peoples ideas and contrast those but human nature itself, he, sore writers, ends as 8 engineers of the human soul, which is the subject you have dedicated a separate chapter in, in your book, and when somebody is so eager to transform the human nature or re meg, the human. So i think theres usually something that they cannot accept as this and most likely in themselves. What do you think may style in so bad on re making their human so, and im asking a here not the you, im asking you not as a historian, but it actually is a human being because its a very intimate personal notation as a to you, as a really interesting question of a personal question. Im not going to give you a personal so old about should lead us were intellectuals, right. All of them believing reading, engagement of ideas, all of them had a big library so strongly wasnt unique in that respect. Okay. Yeah, i guess this question about transform submission stuff. Yeah. We got up to why was the cost of what was he and the both is constantly grosse, be in that direction and theyre doing that because to their ideas they, you tokens, they genuinely kind of like believe that this transformation of human nature, theyre seeking, its possible of course they dont, patrice it out because thats one of the fundamental effect use of the soviet project to solve it socially. The site you get to actually create that utopia that theyre striving for. Now, personally, i can understand that because i will see you type in an idea as myself, as a young man. So i understand that strong thing. I also understand, you know, the personal emotional thing. If youre trying to process something, which you cant quite get there and you, you understand, you know, the difficulties you have to. So what doubts the skepticism about it. So i have, so theres a little personal insight into this book as well. That goes to the terms between the install is that still on remind to not do this, you remain the token he was forever across the for this is our uh, protective team from dallas. You to some extent, and then im also an avid student of psychology and then psychology, idealization mental ization of rationalization in a tendency to make things abstract. They are considered to be a typical psychological defense is. When do you dont want to connect with the, you know, of human nature in yourself when it seems to, you saw, you know, imperfect or disdainful that you would rather think about something, you know, shiny down the down the line and then address it in yourself. Yeah, i kind of agree with that, but lets dont forget the point im making the about the emotional basis of storage police. So these are geology and politics list also it and also um still it on the site um the importance of kind of the rational for that. Yes. Yeah. He asked me so it easy. He believed this idea is a no a rational grandparent. Beautiful brown. So his belief, no, im saying hes right, but i dont you know, it or rushing directionality . Oh, its boxes. And so you know, it is like, its a combination of this combination of character, personality and emotionality. Its combination of very typical steps. Human psychological traits. This of this look at the are a function of these rationalist audiology and politics as well. Can i ask you something because you are, you mentioned your book that you see him as what he would now call emotional intelligence. You dont believe that hes feelings or, you know, sensing abilities are split off from his coffin gift capacity. And i wonder if youve been able to track not only hes emotional reading of others, but hes own authentic feelings or maybe even suffering in those. Uh, you know, uh, markings on the sides of the books, but i tried to do that as best i county in the book, but even in a sense, its impossible for me to actually summarize the actually. I think it was the davis inklings in yourself when you felt okay. I think this is a style in writing as a human being rather than as a great leader. He imagines himself to be. And terms of these library. Yeah, thats the whole point of it. Yeah, copeland stallings library has his private reading. Yes. Hes personal. Well yes it is not that he wouldnt be read sometime later. Yeah. Well i think thats probably true. Might be towards the end of his life. Yes. Yeah, he must have been aware that he will become the object of the attention of people like me over our research is just like many a be coming in his ear. So i thought no, no but but no to the actual quality of these markings. Its very spontaneous, its very, its very, very, very, very well. Thank you. Thats absolutely correct. There is an element of performance here, but its a very, very um, simple and adam and i have a context with a confidential context with style in you speak your right to your editor. Yeah. Then it is much, much more of a performance foot 4 foot for the item. Obviously hes putting on the chart. Thats not the case when were talking about his personal event thats, thats the interest, thats the power of the socially watch. What to do if i try to, you know, tell you this to show showed read how this works for now we have to take a very short break. We will be back to discussing it in a short time. Thank you very much. The theres no end in sight over how youre going to continue to destroy the earth. Is the case for the med, most of the people. I tried to go to the gym, but im certainly not ready to fight russia. This is also of soon. This is the 3rd world lunacy re washing press for so the funder line likes to say we have the tools while we just start with stability and business deals to me on that. We have a very quick propaganda, you know, price here in new york. I think we dont know the aftermath any time that youre not allowed to ask questions, you should ask all of the questions. Some more questions, ask a better. The answer is will be the question. What is the parchment in chapter roberts, americas professor of history of the University College, of course, and also felons library, a dictator and his books. Professor roberts, in your book, you suggest the style in div notes recoil from reading the works of his arch avenue as likely and trust keisha was also very much interested in the history of desires times which soviet propaganda, the time official soviet propaganda fully dismissed. And in order to engage with that kind of material, you consider a wrong or adversarial one needs to have a degree of flexibility versa, till it to m toler ends, which is not how styling is remember, what do you think compelled him to engage with the other do you think it was primarily his own personal drive or perhaps to come out of the office . Im not sure the id, id used the color of the simulation to stall it, but certainly flexibility. Okay. So its the opposite of us a bit. So it does to, to that, to yeah, in the context of him being an adult, much at mazda of yeah, yeah. So it wasnt a big surprise to me when i discovered that the stone has an intellectual red to light. Yeah. He was a learning intellectual. Thats not such a know such a big, big, a big surprise to what this surprised me was how much you engaged with his political opponents and how much he, he loved the farm as a political, political opponents. You have. Okay. Starting with a marxist, he believed the boxes and a lot of these reading was boxes, stuff, so obviously stuff, communist stuff. Right . But, but he was prepared to read anything of that and then he won. Right. And he was prepared to learn from title ideas from and from that in coming to the christ to using the book is, is the study is his prostate trust the time was much more in the image of trotsky as an intellectual. Yep. For quite a long time, let me quote with what the trust key wrote about style in which you describe him as a gift to the risk practicality, a strong will and persistence in carrying out his aims, but also devoid of creative imagination, restricted him, he was learning methods and political horizons and stubbornly empirical in his mind and trust. He also wrote that style, it always seemed to it to humans based as a man who was destined to play 2nd or 3rd fit though i came playing 1st was not due to style. And so who talents but the rather the backsliding of the system. I wonder if you detected any sort of intellectual inferiority on the part of style and dont you think he was trying to compensate for something that he saw in trotsky but lacked in himself . No, no, i dont see that. So style he most of probably confidence as an intellectual, he was his own mind, his own monks. Its just, you know, his autonomy as a person, as a political outcomes. Now georgie came from leaving himself as an and an intellectual. Yeah. He didnt call to any what any w e to present himself as being the names of people who got the, the best student of land. But he did. He was a photo of learning, but, but he, uh, yeah, he wasnt a prison of learning. Im labs. Okay. Says personnel, because the i think clearly demonstrates that the insured was the bed. So yeah, but, but trust is denigration of stallings that youd like to very, very influential view. And the select shaped perceptions are starting from many, many, many decades now. Yep. Oh, you know, especially perhaps in the west 5th across. Absolutely. But, but that, that perceptions change even in the less than that possibly a function of the fact we felt the collapse, the sort of hearing in the open up the rush all cause you storage. And i was a much, much more materials, but you know, to work with. And this is your painting a completely different picture. Not just installing the house. So that system from the one you can get from chelsea and one of the discoveries of the, the post soviet period in the all cars has the, the extent to which time it was an intellectual, unintended guy, simple ideas of mike book is, is part of that that body of work, but of course i have a particular and a sustained focus on strong as a sexual 15 relation to his life as a reader and his and his personal library. As before, now its done is access to for him. Books was limited, not only because of the logistics, but also because he didnt know any other language other than russian and trojan. And yet to point out thats telling how the high regard and diligence, interest for hes political contemporaries, like Winston Churchill or uh, franklin down there was a what do you think that the interest was reciprocated . J thing they, they saw a nickel in him as he saw in them. Oh, available. Uh absolutely. I mean one of my other specialities is you must know was the stone is will lead to stalling during the 2nd world war. Im particularly the relationship between style in a churchill and was like, yeah, and this does know to look like respect that the rules of the contractual access dont include respect for stallings. No, much you know, no, the 2 books and the profundity it also, oh obviously thinking what i saw on fascinating is that style and started the american constitution. And i think it was almost unknown. Both in russian in the west was that he was a keeper sided over and was very much engaged in the works of the of the soviet Constitutional Commission that was tasked with drafting the soviet constitution of 1936. That, at least in writing, attempting to give uh or a to encourage more active grass roots. Political participation in the constitution was passed barely a year before the great terrors which some millions of people to that dest or to the, to the glove. And one thing that i, as a russian cannot understand, is this interesting proceed between putting so much time and effort into starting have various societies for government. Because i think that was his key interest in all. But he is a reading for, since he has verging so quickly so ruthlessly, to the tyranny of the iron hand. How do you understand that, you know, the patients with books and toto in patients with the imperfections of, of life and governing stories overriding the bro to you was the defense, socialism. Defend the revolution for me to sign them. I just want to do whatever he could to contribute to socialism and the needs for pattern engaging all kinds of projects, activities which he saw us to bring the goals, including your link, you know, this new constitution on the 36 constitutional kinds. Kinds of other things, but, but in the end, you know, he was prepared to do whatever was necessary to the play was standing there and revolution. Add the uh, the costs to and the huge cost to his side to and hes people. Absolutely. Because yeah, apps, because he was the utopia. Yeah. He believed this action was necessary. Believe he said it money funds that actually forced upon us by enemies. Right. If we dont do this, our enemies all going to cross us. That that is the less than history stones or read it. Okay. Its times of boxes. Most of them is a big thing. Paste. Favorite topic was history. And the, and the list especially. Yeah, you too, you mentioned the constitution. I was very surprised about stallings interest in constitutional law. And if you meant your integration, its an interest that seems to come when the discussing the new saw the constitution. He thought hes a, hes on we saw it personally very important point. Strong always thought is im research always talk is on really professor rovers. I mean, the display that i see here, or if hes perceive, is that people so much f for the interest in researching those patterns, you know, a constitutional, uh, governing, etc. But he doesnt have the strength of the capacity, the patience to put it into practice. Because if you want to defend the revolution, you can defend it by your actions, you know, putting those ideas into practice and materialize and realizing them. But its almost like he persist um, im damaging drops and the refers to the old methods that hes defending against. Yeah, well i think he possesses them as far as he can. But as i said, you know, he, hes prepared to, to work nicely. But the kind of argument youve made, its kind of argument many people invite it in relation to style. It was just the note, the disjunction between his theory and his practice time, yeah, you know, it has been limitations. The limitations are okay of him. So as to how does that need to actual if i single, essentially i to very serious read in song. Sometimes you can be quite profound and certainly the very effective, but in the end, you know, the piece of limits, its good for the human being or had they understood the geology policy so deeply full right is political practice is usually kind of problematic for the reason you said because of the impact of these. So if hes your design or real on society, i know im on im, im familiar with people folks. Yeah. Im not trying to cover anything off the month of yet for any points. Ones time is less to, its a force he has any height dates, height, and hes books. And for a whole book, i mean, gauging with the questions your raising about strong is big to, to lower real. Im trying to reply to some explanation, some of the come on. So to, to, you know, why this kind of look, actually quite sensitive feeling intellectual is in many wise control of this bad stuff as well. Now we talked before about this quasi religious attitude. The started had towards the books and knowledge of the nurses, and i wanted to what a center thing the phenomena of style him was specific to russia is collect of sold. Because if we look at the russian history of russian literature of the nonsense or the beginning of the 20th century, with all these painful soul searching, i wonder if the emergence of uh, leaders like styling the whole landing was also in the out today. That was the inevitable. Yeah. What as far as the roster is concerned, started the closest very kind of look skeptical about all this stuff about you know, the russian. So and the central excuse is buried in some sense, a very typical representative of anything you know, its own way, just a way out of that im doing things by yourself exploring. Yeah, i mean very supper and yeah, i feel good. I dont suppose i make 2 points to, i mean, i dont think strongly but so you can self that way. I dont think he would accept your analysis and i dont think i do of, you know, i think i dont think you need to result to those kind of explanations. You know which one, you know, i think, you know, its much more straightforward, but to, to actually see stein for what he was. Because we saw him play for as a communist, as a marxist, as a political back to us. The products, a child of his society, and thats the side as long history. Im certain for the like tens and patterns, but he was not that he was fundamentally of product. Categories on, did you say is dont i thought that was on south education, right . To my office, Political Police and commitments, marxism Company Makes much more sense to locate stone in that context. I think anyway, down it does in the context of the russian tradition. But maybe maybe thats the mistake. Thats me speaking from, from my experience. So as we mentioned earlier in needful as a young man, i was very large strong except i was a pacification robin b like boy thats but very like very lucky. The menu i so Political Activities some, some im speaking from my experience. Right. But maybe from the russian perspective, and thats the only kind of a very different i dont want to get too close to contemporary politics. But i do think that they sort of alter the adapt, know, stick tendency, coupled with a sense of the rushes, this thing, destiny is very inherent to the russian leadership. And if you look at the right and they put him, hes also out today that he also has a sense of a special way for, for russia, not exceptional, but special way for russia. And i think hes or hes very open about it. He reads history, books, norful azure, but for governing the insides. You know, think about that. There are lots of very interesting um, comparisons to me by between stalling and i, i dont think about that. See coaching as intellectual. I have to say in the same step. Okay. Put anything guides of ideas, but i dont think the, i dont get the impression anyway. There was central, hes to his consciousness to is, is like being that they were stalling. Yeah. So, so yeah, so, so to me, certainly in case of ideas with reading, with literature course of history. Yeah, i mean, just poking is fanatical about history is the only was actually, you know, that, that the 2 main comparisons ought to voice free to my while. Im thinking about stalling them. 2 things, 2 things. Firstly, that was patrick, its a set to lead to the both the voted multinational sir. And thats the right content that the seat between the soviet union, the saw, and the Russian Federation that both will forensically, of Multinational Multi ethnic studies, but stalling and polluted committee to defending that multi that multinational character of all of their respect, respect, just respect is things i have one last question and to be only have a few seconds for you to answer it. But i wonder if the sense of autonomy is also one of the main underlying reasons for the current confrontation between russia and the west. This argument over lois, over of the wars with capital w, the ride to the worth and the ride to come up with your own thinking in your own way forward for your country. I, i guess i would tend to agree with you in a way, you know, in the west you have to kind of like all the geological stuff that always breaks to my mind, the origin of, to prefer both the soviet period to solve. So if it does all the system right, and you know, a good deal at d deal at the logical stuff of fanaticism, dogmatism, or style in that as, as, as, as, as a marxist, a company. So i think that, yeah, thats a very interesting point that you might have to live in there and thank you very much for your time and thank your congratulations on this very intriguing and very insightful book will fix the super true, very intriguing and insightful laugh. Pleasure and hope hopefully it was also your pleasure. Thank you for watching and hope to hear again and was a part of the, [000 00 00;00] the, [000 00 00;00] the, to take a fresh look around as a life kaleidoscopic isnt just a shifted reality distortion by power type vision with no real opinions. Fixtures designed to simplify will confuse really once a better wills and is it just as it shows you, fractured images, presented to this, but can you see through their illusion going underground . Can