Im action or times here. Welcome back to going under ground broke of single around the world from you by in the you a. Where do you think is the most dangerous border in the well, the rush or you grain north, south korea, north, according to a recent special report from the us and apparently the Us Mexico Border is the most dangerous border in the world to and benjamin a journalist author and Senior National security fellow at the us center for Immigration Studies has been reported on the ground for years along the Us Mexico Border in his new book. He provides a full account of what he argues is the west of Mass Immigration for the crisis. The United States has ever experienced the book over run out. Joe biden, melisha, the greatest board of crisis in u. S. History is out now to have benjamin joins me now from cleveland in the us border states, texas. Thank you so much. Started for coming on. I mean, im to start with the fact that the what, what is the scale of the Immigration Crisis . Because normally, i mean, we talk about the fact that the chinese population filled 588002022. And as a shrinking population, the scare in the United States. But your book seems to talk about the fact you need fewer immigrants dont more. Which really the point is you need more immigrants, right . Well, it depends on what your perspective is. There are people who believe that, you know, laws, immigration laws ought to be followed. And the u. S. Is probably one of the only countries in the world where there are a sizable, you know, populations outside us citizens that believe otherwise, that maybe we should just ignore the i n a, the immigration and nationality act in all of the last that or we go out globally towards so, i mean, no one thinks america, i mean, you say in the book americans, youre going to be a nation of legal immigrants that your, a 9 year old Homeland Security intelligence career informs you of use would start with that abiding, believe that america occupies the moral high ground as a nation of law. I mean, no one around the world thinks the United States is about law. So if we, i mean, thats nothing serious is as well. I mean, i think there are a lot of people in the United States that believe that the i n a ought to be followed. The i n a is a set of laws that are very specific, says that dow shout, you must, its not may detain into poor anybody who crosses the legally without permission. In this country, we have allowed at least 5500000 people in over the southern border in about 24 months. This is absolutely unheard of. Its nothing like this has ever happened in american history. And to give you some kind of an idea of scale going back to your original question, which is that maybe we might have had 400300008 year for, you know, the most recent 10 years leading out to, uh to, to the by the administration and now we are looking at, you know, 2 and a half 1000000 crossing that border are attempting to cross that border in a single year. So the scope and the scale is absolutely beyond anything in, in the us experience. And i think that that alone qualifies it as a historic event and certainly justifying a fork. Sure, no, absolutely, but i mean, i dont understand how, i mean, even 2000000 is not going to be enough. At the moment the United States faces folding Life Expectancy since 2019 low birth rates, a fatality rate of 3. 6 and 90 and sixtys below replacement level years ago is now at 1. 6. By 2034, the us is estimated to have more people over 65 and people under 18, you desperately need young people to be legal immigrants. They have children, presumably they all work. I mean i lived in l. A for a while, there were plenty of people from across the border. Im sure some of them were illegal and you desperately need these people to come across the board of otherwise the United States is going to suffer, isnt it . You can all make like, oh yeah, i understand what youre saying. I mean, that is an argument. That is a policy argument for Legal Immigration. That argument is always be any Legal Immigration. Thats why they had all that stuff about the trying to get the papers for the parents of uh, of children that had good jobs. I mean 40 percent of the 500. 00 largest u. S. Companies were funded by immigrants or the children across somebody. These are the children of great grandparents who came over legally. Thats since the menu, right. We, can we civil war . We kind of do, we always have had some ilLegal Immigration for sure, but ilLegal Immigration is not the solution to the issues that youre raising. Thats an issue for Legal Immigration we, we, in the United States allow for about a 1000000 a year to come in. I mean, thats a legitimate policy debate. You could like raise the congress, raise the rate. You could have Congress Lower the rate. You could have an administration, a seat to so bureaucratic ideas of it. I mean, i know it obviously speaking up for the cartels, youre describing the book and the roof a uh, crime, link, gangs that help families to come across, you being on the porter. Im not speaking up for them, but your version the bureau critize in all of a Legal Immigration thats really expensive to the us tax bank. Im on as well. I think that theres a, there, there is often a conflation, an inappropriate conflation of Legal Immigration and, and ilLegal Immigration as so its one in the same. It is not in any country in the world, not only existing countries, but all kinds of trees down to ancient tribes. A boy, the usa is founded on a Legal Immigration, isnt it . By definition, your country is founded on ilLegal Immigration. Uh, not that im aware of, you know, ill asylum, you know, the native americans clearly than that. You said ancient times obviously just speak to any native american in any of the so called reservations. Theyll tell you the bottom usa is founded on the Legal Immigration as well. Okay. So yeah, if you want to go back to pre pre nations, but you could talk about that. I think the comanche went back to differ. They fought, tooth and nail against mexicans, ilLegal Immigration incursion, armed incursions, that kind of keeps the doors and all that. We can go around about that if you want. But as a matter of modern nation state, all nation state sea to control their, their bores with laws and with arms guards, its a guarded perimeter and always has been illegal. Immigration is something that, as far as i know, no nation on earth countenances, they try to counter it and, and stop it and block it into turn it as much as possible. And i think that that, that, to the question of, you know, low birth rates and labor markets and that sort of thing. Again, the place for that discussion is in the congress and to amend the loss if we want to amend the loss. But we have walls on the books right now that would, uh, black stopped a tour with detention and deportation. Like every other country on the planet. Yeah. But its really interest isnt it . Of american. The leads as the economy found, is in the midwest in the area which trump so eloquently spoke about and voted for him, the, the destroyed Manufacturing Base of the United States. So the address of it leads to, to alien that is the other. Its race basing and this kind of thing has been use rivets. So in congress, theyre never going to get legislation to say, look, the United States and desperately needs immigrants, otherwise it will turn out like west virginia, wherever i think this is the population. I know just yeah, i dont disagree that there are a business the leads and corporate leads that love the idea of having a cheap labor coming in illegally over the border. But it just doesnt justify whatever or whatever the economic interest or political interest is served by massive ilLegal Immigration of the greatest numbers weve ever seen in the history of the United States to flout congressional will and mandates. We have a loss in your book. You talk about the countries where the immigrants come from and i should say, you do say in the book to unlimited point, i empathize with these immigrants is somewhat similar to the determined peoples who hit the wilderness trails during the California Gold rush and the 1950s although give me not as much gold in california as to whats in the 1850. Why do you think conditions as such that people would want to leave . Leave cuba, venezuela, nicaragua, haiti, risk their familys lives coming over and trying to look into us . Well, because the United States has probably the most powerful economy in the world. I talk about, oh, you know, my interviews with many thousands of immigrants. I know their stories may be better than anybody else. I spend a lot of time with them. But so you dont have, nobody wants to live in haiti. But by the same token of the vast majority of haitians who have been crossing the southern border were living quite safely and prosperous. Lee in 3rd, other countries like chile and they decided to come a lead because they saw the gate swing open and that they could do an upgrade. And you can argue the same thing for venezuelans. Theyre living in 1520 different 3rd countries, often very price. Firstly, for many, many years and only now to sign it across the border because they saw the gate swing open, at least thats what they tell me and i believe, oh yeah, and you talk about it or imply the soft power, perhaps of hollywood. What is, what is it that gives them the idea that life will be better in the United States when theres an image projected to all these other countries the life is fantastic in the us. But as we know, as i said, Life Expectancy is following those. Uh, i dont know how many uh, 40000000 tonight to me wouldnt be able to eat without the snap food stamp program. The right is all about, you know, its comparative analysis and immigrants, you know, or smart ive, ive met probably, you know, hundreds and hundreds as not thousands of immigrants who are very keen, fully aware of Us Immigration policy far more than your average american out and, and they analyze our policies in a way that would tell them whether this is a good time to late or money down their smuggling money to get into the United States. They want to get into the United States because a lot of them have relatives that are living here who are sending back reports about their lifestyles. It is a fable lifestyle, the United States, lifestyle theres. Theres a kind of a sense of that theres, theres a limit was the opportunity whether you achieve uh, you know, material success in the United States is an open question. But a lot of those immigrants want to have a chance to gamble it, to make it to make it rich, to strike it rich. Just like the people that took the klondike trail back in the 18 ninetys in the United States, etc. And nobody knew that they were going to strike gold. And i think that theres, you know, its understandable that they wouldnt want to do that. However, theres a legal way to do it. It may not be a great legal way to do it because it takes time. Its not as quick as just the legally jumping somebodys borders, but it is the legal way to do it. To benjamin, ill stop you. The more from the Senior National security fellow of the us center for Immigration Studies after this break the the, the welcome back to going out of the garden. Im still here with us center for integration studies to at benjamin. The also has a new book over run hydro, by them at least the gracious border crisis and us history. You said there were legal ways in which people can come across the border for these people that have left countries sanctioned by the United States by policy. The United States has tried to destroy the economies of venezuela, cuba, chile, a while back brazil to ecuador, and the United States is actively engaged in destroying those economies avowedly reusing sanctions. And then you said, well, youve met them in 3rd countries. For vitamins just put in a ball, if you live in a 3rd country, you cannot apply for asylum in the United States. What legal ways that for them to come to the United States. Do you apply uh for an immigrant visa, or you apply for uh for uh, im not talking about crossing the border and talking about applying to become a resident of the United States. It takes time. It costs money. Uh, theres not a guarantee that you will be accepted, it does, it is a pay, i get it, but its just not much different than if you were to apply to become a citizen of germany or australia or any other country, south africa, wherever canada, you can become a refugee, you can enter as a refugee apply as a refugee i go through reading, there are lots of legal way. You dont think that is the only mil to kind of southern border yes. Just learn in build prejudice against people south of the rio grande though. I mean, obviously a ukrainian can get or an irish press and can get that legal residency much quicker than a person from a country. Originally there was actively, uh, uh, in economic war with the United States one sided economic war caused by the United States as well. Yeah, i think youre right. You know, there are certain countries that would, that would have their entire populations empty out overnight and enter the United States. If there were no impediment whatsoever. Certain countries, i dont think that the, that us policy makers are worried about the entire population of france crossing our southern border. But they are worried about the entire population of haiti or cuba, injury to the southern border because they most certainly would if they could. And so i think that there is some kind of pinpointed uh, application of the, even the legal visas for people from countries that are a really dire stress. He took in the book about the appalling nature of us policy as regards their ability to say, oh, well go into other countries, tackled the roots of the reasons for the immigration and show how catastrophic, how that policy is. But you mentioned 8 and cuba, and id say that there are populations the sizes would propose they want to stay there, but clearly hate the Obama Administration accused of a coo there at september 29. 1991 february 29, 2004. The Police Assassination jumbotron wars or state is guarded out by a bomb. Is goons. Really, its the other way around is that the us is sanctioning. Cuba has an embargo on cuba. Its interfered in hazy, and this is the blow back if the United States wants to carry on like it does around the world. It has a budget in to give Legal Immigration to all the refugees from the countries who are being the stabilized by u. S. Policy just to let them in. If youre going to go to war with the, if youre going to bomb iraq, say anyone in a rug who wants to come to the us, you can come because clearly were doing this to save the oliver rock. Not uh, uh we, we only want to hurt the 12 people. Well, you know, i mean, i hear that argument all the time that you know, we did this to them and so therefore we, we owe their entire population illegal entry at the southern border. I dont think the legal use or legal for sure. But right now its just, you know, those countries are across and youre legally and very large numbers. Same with venezuela. But you know, i dont think that as a practical matter that you can mean at some point the life boat fills up anyway, and you have to, i think, be able to set some kind of a limit. Those are policy debates that are worth having us do we need to increase the cap on refugees . Do we need to increase the cap on you know, gas workers . Do we need to increase the cap on this data or the other way . Far too many categories to list here, but, but you dont have to be a great have the debate, i guess my position is just that. That is irrelevant to illegal migration over the southern border, which is what my book is about. So you think that so you think they should legalize more . Because right now the estimates of the United States immediately as of today and hes 1600000 more Healthcare Work is 1300000 in accommodation and food Service Employment right now is a huge labor shortage in the United States. So 2. 0 is that 3000000 people you need right now. Whereas in your book is saying, well, these millions that coming over, well, why not just as legalize that increased limit, then you dont have to bother with all these expensive federal. Its expensive to the Taxpayer Services and problem solve. Youve got masses of people that want to come in and you need people, as you know, does a deal to be made that if you need labor, you do what canada does and you seek out legal. Uh you use you, you open up to legal avenues to immigrants around the world, canada as bringing in 4 or 500000 a year right now to meet their labor needs, their labor shortages. But again, those are things that the canadian part argument and the, the true jo government agreed to do. And its part of the canadian political process that they did that. Um, but the ilLegal Immigration over the border is not the way to do that. No country does that anywhere. How many do you, what, how many immigrants view, what . Because youre saying, you know, there are huge numbers that could come into the here us, how many do you want to come in . You have another numbers in the book. How many more immigrants from latin american Central America do you want to come . Thats not really my expertise. Honestly. Uh, you know, but i, i would say that if, if theres a, if theres a labor market demand in industry circle actually because they dont have a worst. I havent seen any industries collapsing yet, then, you know, have to be somebody decide on what the number is. I think the United States is probably the most generous nation in the world for Legal Immigration, a 1000000 a year at least we bring in, you know, many, many thousands of, uh, refugees and uh, people who are coming in for a student to, to attend our universities and to offer for exchange, these exchange of students, scholar, it Scholarly Exchanges and that sort of thing. I mean, the categories are vast of the people that we do allow and legally, i think the United States is pretty generous. Um, but you know, maybe one day when uh, you know, of industry started to clash for lack of workers. Then, you know, Congress Needs to step in and decide to lift a cap or to somewhere. Yeah. Those kind of going to say those kind of conversations that clearly being admin the chinese communists, buddy because they are facing a population shrinkage. Catastrophe arguably, you say in the book, others are arriving from adversarial nations into the United States as iran, china, russia, venezuela. Posing the threat of espionage will terrorism will proportion from iran, china, russia, venezuela, coming into the u. S. Poses that threat, a less been large and tears. Remember, you know, the problem with having an open open southern border. Where do you have a mass migration . Thats kind of the class, the system is that we really dont know whos entering. Its a the ultimate stranger danger. Really. A lot of immigrants just before they cross drove their id, uh their passports in the dirt on the mexican side. And then they come in and just say, my name is mickey mouse, we have no idea who huge numbers of these people are. We had about a 1700000. 00 ways, just in the last 2428 months. I got a ways for those that we never even got had contact with. We just counted their footprints or caught them on video or Something Like that, but never caught them. Uh, but the issue there is course that weve got people coming in from a 160 countries other than mexico in Central America. Really, the entire world has heard that you can get an over the southern border if you just cross it. And so the whole world is coming to take advantage of this really. Right . Yeah. But do, do you think spies normally come in through legal roots because its like an added problem. I mean, i just dont understand what, what the evidence is that theres a threat to the United States of immigration, ilLegal Immigration of a child, uranium mines, and russians into the United States, to spy on the United States and commit to her. Right, well i mean, youre right we, we have seen a lot of chinese spies wold up who came in through a legal routes on, on student visas and people who came in on, on a Scholarly Exchange for use this Cultural Exchange reasons. And that sort of thing, and were catching on pretty often actually. But we also have have 10000. 00 chinese nationals across the southern border, justins october. And i, i mean, im sure you would agree see that . You know, why would you, why would your s, why would your espionage services not for a one or 2 wins to cross that way . I think its joe notes a very, i mean, the Chinese Government obviously said that those academies, which were legal, werent full of spies. But of course now ukrainian immigrants can legally get into the United States. Im sure youve seen the pictures of neo nazis in ukraine. What threat do they pause as they arrive in the United States . Weve seen so many youd be as well for one thing, you know, again, the distinction between legal and illegal. If, if its legal, theres at least a shot. Its not perfect, but theres at least a shot to do some kind of betting on them when they cross the border and throw the idea in the door. You have no idea if youve got the ukranian mafia coming in, or criminals who have committed a rate or murder or whatever it is in their home country. But you know, we cant really do a quick and easy uh, intelligence share with, with the government. If we dont know who they are, and so i think thats the problem is you just dont know what youre getting when you cross over the southern when, when you have all these people crossing over the southern border. I mean, weve had probably about 200 people from islamic majority countries across the border who were on the the ice terrorism watch list. And thank god we caught those. But again, we have 1700000 dollar ways and we dont know who we didnt catch them when you have a border thats just, you know, wide open like this where everybody and anybody who crosses pretty much gets a pass in a you dont really know what their hearts are mines is best of the problem with ilLegal Immigration and just finding the what, what is the solution . Do you think federal bureaucratic structures are capable of processing all of these legally and protecting that border . I mean, the wolf, you know, many people thought was i, there was a perception when it came to trump policy, which as you throw in the book, reduced ilLegal Immigration. But in actual practical matters, people will come over the border. How can, how can federal bureaucratic structures in the United States organize all of this in the face of the threats who just said, as well . I write elaborately in the book about how about the calculus and about how us policies actually were on the ground and play in the calculus of immigrants who are deciding should i stay or should i go in and really what the basic is not that complicated and it is addressable bureaucratically because how do i know this . Because i interviewed the emigrants, thousands of them who just tried for me consistently across nationalities, time, and geography. About what it really is that theyre, that theyre doing. Is that what it is that causes them to pull the trigger so to speak. And that is, if im going to spend 10000. 00 on a small or to bring the to the border so i can cross, i want to know to the highest, but i have the highest degree probability possible that im going to get in and stay in to pay that money back and then multiples of profit by the multiples after that, uh, either through illegal work or a be could eventually be coming, legal or whatever. But if i know that im going to be pushed back, im not going to go, im not going to pull the trigger. And during the trump years, he had policies in place that really lowered the us, that you were going to get in and stay at his policies meant that you were probably gonna end up stuck in mexico for years. And so they stayed home. Where do they stay . They sheltered in place and places like chilly or brazil, or all of the 15 countries surrounding venezuela that, that now harbor venezuelans. And its really that simple. There are policies that cause you to have to stay in another country. So its a lot of it is about perception. I, i should say im low, would definitely say that the mexican dream, adult benjamin. Thank you. Thank you. Thats it for the show. The book over run out joe biden, the least, the greatest boy, the crisis and us history is up. Now remember, were bringing in new episodes every day monday until then. You can give it to us by or less, which will meet you if its not sensors in your country and had to add channel guaranteed the hon. Dont come through watching you and old episodes off going undergrad. See you soon. The the, the, we are ready to go. The lead time the is that d d is also, besides potential military intervention against the shares, a coo government moves step closer as the equal was group of west african nations says its prepared for action, but the countries people say theyre ready to defend that their nation will wait for them, and they will have to go through our dead bodies before reaching the purchase. Were waiting for. The gantt and authorities slammed the world bank after a halt at all Financial Aid to the country over a controversial new n t o g b t. Law Ukrainian Security service and drives about conducting terrorist attacks against rush
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