You to welcome to the alex salmond shoe in this year of many tragedies perhaps the passing of joined him did not get the prominence it deserved john hume is widely regarded as one of the most important figures in the recent political history of ireland as one of the architects of the Northern Ireland Peace Process and he took a day he was a finding member of the social democratic and labor party the s. T. O. P. And served as a 2nd leader from 1989 to 2001 he also served as a member of the European Parliament im to member of the u. K. Parliament i dont so as a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly Today we look at the contribution of john hume by contrasting the position of disaster reached in the province and the early 1970 s. At the height of the troubles with the peace which still holds to be despite the intense strains caused by bricks it 1st we speak toward winning journalist David Blake Knox about his new book on the killing of Thomas Needham our manager of Northern Ireland factory and then we examine with alice to mcdonnell one of john hume successors as leader of the s. T. O. P. About how the Northern Island was pulled from tragedy to peace just after christmas in 1973 Thomas Needham i was bundled into his car id say to school in west belfast. He was never seen alive again by his friends or family it was an idea of murder and tragedy in the province with 500 people a year dying as nationalist and loyalist paramilitaries mobilized against the power sheeting stunning deal agreement alex takes up the tragic story with journalist and author David Blake Knox who has published a new book on the killing. David yes this book whether they get a station or theres a book come from there you know the very height of the troubles 970 free this great for modern tell us a bit more about it. Well i suppose part of the reason the true move to this story is as you say it was at the height of the troubles and i thought it reflected is a very unusual case it was sort of a case that the only German National ticket to die in Northern Ireland in the troubles and the only diplomatic representative of any country to die in Northern Ireland and with troubles what also drew me to this story was that it was it was a family tragedy as well as being a tragedy of this close and intimate it was a tragedy for it as well and his 2 daughters and all of them subsequently copayments of some of the aftermath of what is a killer so who was Thomas Niedermeyer or of the businessman but he was quite often described in their aftermath of his abduction straightlaced which kind of made him sound as if you were some sort of fat cat plutocratic in fact he came from a very humble or modest working class background he had been inducted into the german war economy when it was still a child it was and turned around he was still a child after the war d ended most germans at his age he didnt go back to school he went he learned to trade. And but the age of just 18 hed already become a froman he worked his way up through the ground a company which was then one of the Biggest Manufacturing Companies and europe and he eventually became a manager but he lived on in a modest others who have a modest income and in many ways some other stuff for oceans he threw himself into his work and bowl accounts he was makes a. Employee manager and also the fact troopers who established in west belfast or some of the 1st of last. The workforce was predominately councillor because it was relatively close to andersons town which is the major catholic estates in both the us but there was also a sizable number of problems from sewer and neither one of the reputation of being scrupulous in that is friendless and objectivity and his lack of any prejudiced so it was he you say that. Was the only German National who. Was killed and in the troubles it was therefore was unusual for people who were as it were walking living incidentally and then off of violent to become embroiled them in where were obviously innocent victims of bombings and carbon that told you so for people to be targeted to who didnt have a stake in the troubles well yes or no it was but it was very as i said he was the only germ and i think there were 2 reasons why it was particularly targets that one was. As a Diplomatic Group isms that as it was thought that he would carry additional weight in terms of around some sort of a state of mind was the on a console and that made him a target of hope why was the precise reason the this man was to be kidnapped what was to be gained from the kidnapping of thomas need a mum. I hope to secure the repatriation of 2 leading our own members the processors the delors and marin who are very highly regarded within our own circles so how did thomas to my end up being assassinated a fight well he was called of his house when movement served at the Road Accident so this car when he came out is bundled into another car it was taken as it turned out only about half a mile down the road crows held prisoner for 3 hours on the 3rd day he tried to make or break a window and shock for help it was over hours and he was distraught whipped around post mortem eventual it established his skull had been fractured so it was in that sense of a 2nd leg and a murder but it wasnt it would have wasnt meant to cause obviously there was no value for they are in and Thomas Niedermeyer being dead exactly it was a bungled it was a bungled effect look it has to be said that any kidnapping implicit is a is the risk that someone is doing because otherwise there would be no point and i mean its a form extortion and if there is nothing that stoic than that its gone plus there was always a possibility that it would be code but they didnt in terms of kill him 3 days after the kidnaps him so youve spoken a bit about the family consequences of social many tragedies resulted from the death of Thomas Niedermeyer and this kidnapping tell us a bit more about the the way the impact the ripple through his family and their and their friends well what compounded. Anguish for his family it was that they are all right tonight that they had kidnapped him and even though they had buried his body just a few 100 yards in a shallow grave just a few 100 yards away from his family home. They were rigorous and denying that they had anything to do with it so for over 6 years nobody knew what would happen so him and the cost of the and secure. Of knowing all that happened to them they couldnt agree it really they couldnt find any form of closure until it was discovered and that was through an informant with in the past on the rolls on a trip motion a memo discovered so shock and horror that is bothering not been lying just a few 100 yards from their home for instance experience a dreadful human story tragic consequences as a journalist and producer david you what your way from a bore for the after party in dublin and the b. B. C. In london im interested pollard journalistic perspective was there a definite accent or in the way the the troubles were covered by these state broadcasters year there was that different periods there were those 2 from the emphasis there were also government more governmental restrictions and coverage of Northern Ireland in upland im aware of loans and are you saying there eavis texans were even heavier explain the bit about that theyre under section 31. 00 of the broadcasting act it was impossible for us to intrude through members either option phone or there are only you know obviously about restrict and it was a pretty blunt instrument and tristrem to that our coverage and my mirrors its one of 10 things great rivals big competitors terms of fortson nonviolent was was john hume who died recently at the end it was john hume a probably more than anyone else who decided that she had to be brought back into the political process of peace was to guess the obvious they had dealings with john obviously over the years how i hope he had a decision was that. Well you know john. I wasnt a close friend of joe of johns but i did cover and over a quite a long career that views i think that in many respects human is a moral exemplar as much as a political exemplar i mean he was absolutely stunned on shake up or in his opposition to Political Violence during some extremely difficult times and you know part of his legacy i think is really precious and should be because he came through a lot of very very hard times i think his legacy will be seeing. You know as i said in moral terms that david. John who was a parliamentarian parliamentary colleagues pretty well ive never regarded them as a great speaker sell him on parliamentary terms happened to me were from in the west of ireland a conference in the aftermath of the bombing in 1988 and he delivered that may not the single transferrable speech he delivered an extraordinary address spellbinding. Which indicated that sometimes people were. Touched by greatness not uniformally but just at the moment and tame and perhaps is that something of that you saw in john hume i couldnt agree more with your witness myself some of those moments sometimes when he was addressing large groups of people at the polls or member when it goes from a night dinner with them and he spoke with that degree of control caution that i found extremely moving and the fact of. The matter goes from that is almost changed my understanding of john it was a very passionate. There was a sense in which he in which he d returned to exult to look at times with certain points but i would never underestimate the depth of his conviction or his potential trouble in extremely eloquent. So lastly david as a journalist living through and reporting on and arranging programs on nonviolent you that youve seen the night deer and 73. 00 the Peace Process through what reflection is would you have for the next generation and ireland what lessons from not just from this book but from your journalistic career would you offer on the Positive Side if there was a there were periods when people thought that the troubles would go on forever and there was no way out of this morass of Political Violence and i think that at the very least we have shown that there are ways forward that political dialogue and collaboration and accommodation better ways of solving our problems on this island they would break knox the author of the coming of Thomas Niedermeyer thank you so much for joining me and theyll examine show thank you alex. Join us after the break where alex will discuss with Allison Macdonald the former m. P. And leader of the social democratic and labor party the contribution of the late john hume to peace in Northern Ireland we see that. What happens when people lose trust. In the Central Banks and the bad so were going to find out. Were segregated all the way by social class. People also in poverty by 1st place if youre born into a poor family if youre born into a minority family if youre born into a family that only has a single parent that really constrains your life chances people die on average 15 years old if youre born into generational poverty. Its a. Fight every day she you meet your needs and the needs of your family. John hume was korda sippin of the 1998 Nobel Peace Prize but the victim bo and those received both the gandhi peace prize on the Martin Luther king award he is the only person to see the 3 major peace awards alex examines how he earned those accolades with former leader of the s. T. O. P. Allister mcdonald. Donna welcome back to the show thank you i guess always approach religion a pleasure to work with you now listen lets stop all in the early seventys of this speaking to david blake not some of the coming of thomas need a mile of the german businessman that was a period where we were not the effect of not deal with the troubles me 500. 00 people were dying a year loyalist part of motive violence nationalist part of militant violence how did that would be the the the point to which the trouble seemed all consuming. Well i think what happened was with the civil rights effort and movement in 196970 and. Basically that was overtaken by people who spano it im sort of to buy alarms on the violence just fed the violence you know you have been all sorts of cut for top murders and on crazy stuff we had a senator putting wilson was murdered for for instance a nasty lp senator in the storm in parliament and then started how to be perot because the unionists were so resistant to granting basic civil rights and human rights to to the nationalist population loyalist paramilitary groups that responded the previous provisional ira they to gun violence started killing those they saw or perceived. Enemies on down toward the lower start and just its split a control. You know what it was a great tribute to shoot him on to the s. T. O. P. At the time that they basically started against violence so still are still 3rd basic civil aced a decent political negotiation despite no matter how difficult the circumstances where i was itself as a young politician in these days as a constitutional nationalist as the town used to be and the s. T. O. P. With all this violence and mayhem going. On and people on the past will fret and danger how did that approach that somehow oh the bridge could be could be crossed i did that approach develop a few up to john hume and others well up not approach was up all their. You know what was happening almost of carlo a carload of universe 2 to the violence was the steady steady march of sensible politics and they were the worse you know i think we have to realize that in those days people who were peoples views or not it should have the motions were all over the place on you know they were there were a lot of people who would have us maybe s. Think a regard for what the pressures were doing printed up to 2 union as a hard line loyalism but they still at last age stole the s. T. L. P. D. I was the party the 1st making sense so you know youre not great muddle through the politics of the time and people get angry and maybe. Some lurched in the direction of violence after a violent absent a provoked them or annoyed them but by and large they were still right through the early seventys and even up until the late at the end of the seventys the majority. Approach if you like by people was that politics had to be made work as one of john hume successes as leader of the s. T. O. P. When john was making these over which were deeply unpopular with many many people the time to try and get the man of violence into constitutional politics to build these bridges was out of consciousness among you in the rest of the s. T. O. P. Leadership that you might be politically putting yourself a disadvantage by bringing a rival nationalist party into the spectacle politics. What are you aware of that you could be creating the sucking stances where youd be superseded by sion thing i dont think it was you know that was one element of it wasnt the overriding element though the overriding element was that there have being many. If you like blue grid approaches in the past there have been cease fires way back in the early seventys that had broken dein and i think them that emotional response of you make turn for a lot of the s. T. L. P. Who were uncomfortable with the humor out of negotiations discussions talks was common we trust should be and can we trust gerry adams are the sincere about this or is this just 8 tactical move to buy themselves some time to regroup and of course you must have been aware as the s. T. P. Were under attack for making over of tools to feign you must have a way out of the large element lives of hypocrisy because the British Governments been in secret thoughts of sion thing that it was an intimate connection between the loyalist possibilities and the and the forces of government so these were the people who were attacking the the links with sinn fein in their p. Well civil painlessly they they had the hands deftly with sic that those well i mean nobody ever shops the British Government theyre always double dealing on their history and i are just been one of double dealing for those and years on there for you know the aware having of course back channels all the time and i think there was a conscious or so it there that there were back channels available all the time but i mean a result of that was also conscious of very clear consciousness. Security interests both army policing i dont flew into over lawyers part of militaries and particularly the army used loyalist paramilitaries i was if you like a 3rd force or a 4th force to do their dirty work and a lot of the Intelligence Security intelligence was handed over to loyalist paramilitaries. Of the amazon as a 5th column attacking. Members of the National Population that whole tragedy of it all was though that basically it constantly and assist people that the loyalists attacked soft targets anywhere they could find a soft target people working people leaving work and difficult derrius or or people coming home late at night walking along a lonely road song or the all risk clear that they were attacking members of the provisional ira but i dont think that lawyers ever killed one member of the provisional larry it was always a best people and a lot of this was set up. And driven by British Security interests and of course they asked to help the one of the rivals of should and fein and was subjected to a great deal of thought out right violence and certainly intimidation and many other black ops how could you how could you manage and how can john human protect the man is to through that to one side as he tried to embrace people back into the Peace Process the context she got up. From the beginning of the seventys that was constant a term addition by people who were. Given to violence are people who want to support people given to buy a lens on our countless hours of time for beaten up i can recall many instance where canvassers were beaten up across the city a belfast i was intimidated many a time myself and i was formerly formed by one individual that i know very well that he was going to shoot me but what i was seeing so all of this all might adopt the pressure was there but we always had a vision that there was a Brighter Future somewhere out there and we always had the vision that the real politics would ultimately win note so how would you assess then john human no hes gone on his contribution to getting people to cross that bridge and to solidify a Peace Process. Been jones contribution was unique and was most of the combination of them selfs. Tony blair both left. Bertie ahearn and double m b shared a vision over time but you know they werent always in the same space but gradually over time clipped and Blair Bertie Ahern and hume were on the one page and with the 4 been on the one page the move towards peace was a battle almost because you know it was just a resistible force. That was the school were and it was he was a unique individual at a unique Pivotal Point in our history we ship future generations will forever be indebted to him for moving us for moving our politics out of violence and the human legacy is that politics are not are you top of the agenda and effectively to all intents and purposes the gum has been taken out of irish politics dot as a tremendous achievement and finally last mcdonnell given the all youve experienced through your political career im walking with john hume and the others who built the Peace Process what would you say to politicians anyway who would for other objectives for the be black that up or whatever would do anything i told that the jeopardize that prize which has been so hard won well i have been very angry over the last 23 years over the who practice of thing because our whole Peace Process was to turn large extent and door stronger written by the European Union and what happened was that that nationalism in north america and was able under the umbrella of the European Union to to accept. Part of the deal that the aspired to be secure we have got economic uncultured progress and turn large extent a lot of people were prepared to accept not in the short to medium term that we had we had the breathing space to live and prosper in our own country and that we werent been big marginalized or are impoverished by the system that existed previously i mean the problem with hob was the previous to the seventys a lot of those who saw themselves as irish or a had irish aspirations of Northern Ireland were forced them a bit by dipping to england ironically it might have been to america made to be destroyed but we were forced to emigrate it and thus unionism kept a majority if you like politically and then and they still do that today and so obvious and your hope for the future. My hopes for the future are that progress will continue im a little bit disappointed that critter progress and greater grit or achievements have been made of storm of the last 20 years but the fact that the violence are stopped or the vast majority of it there are still a handful of people out there who do not say no so they feel they want to go back to violence but 95 percent of it is gone. People are talking to each other they made out like each other they may not even tolerate each other but theyre forced to talk to each other. Thus maybe a bit short of making advances we do need a much more coherent system of government that will bring Economic Prosperity the young people today 17181920 what prosperity they want opportunity. Fortunately when we have. Brought the violence stopped and got a great degree of stability over the last 20 years we havent reached the Promised Land we have a we havent robbed that many of the Economic Opportunities that are out there i was the baby doll thank you so much for joining me on the alex on the show like you are lakers obese the kidnapping and killing of Thomas Needham are was one of the darkest i mostly forgotten episodes of the troubles however it illustrates the night made a spiral of violence i to wish join him in his cell a peacemaker eventually drag their province by the pride of patients who just taking on force of will it seems extraordinary that Northern Ireland having travelled so far towards a Civic Society that any politician led to replace it at risk again. The troubles have cast a long shadow over generations of irish women and men but they have also cost to quote over the politics of england for generations and indeed for centuries peace in ireland is not just a precious thing but it is a tender flower it would be best to cherish it isolate john hume to it so well may he rest in peace and i for myself alex and stacy good bye i hope to see you again next to. Me is going to be more restrained in which you used to write when this is like breathing norms not necessarily a good way to become smarty 3 is the. Right is it as you strain is what the reality is. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy on sunday should we let it be an arms race is also a spirit Dramatic Development that only really im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. Russia says its job will cost less than 10. 00 per ounce at present sputnik the 2 u. N. Member states. Pull people. Off to a large explosion at a Wastewater Treatment plant in the west of england. Town reportings on c n n stuff meetings on the project very tough the conservative group claims the tape showed the networks clip bias against president trump. Just gone 10 pm here in the russian capital thanks for picking teams