Guests of the world of politics sports business im show business ill see you then. A little in welcome to cross talk were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle the host soviet frozen conflict no one is not going to look out about is no very hot we tell you what you need to know and its america in 2020 acting out similar events that witnessed the bolshevik revolution in 1970. To discuss this and more im joined by my guest george said he is an author and a you tuber a gaggle and here in moscow we have Dmitri Bobbitt she is a political analyst and editor it interest me internet media project originally crossed up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated ok lets go to the georgian budapest the conflict the call about a buck has flared up again those that have. Been watching the post soviet space gotten used to this year now after over 7 days of the conflict create knighting again georget some kind of stalemate put it into context why is this conflict important to follow. Where you have to go back to the earliest days of the bolshevik revolution and to the decisions of Joseph Stalin who was the bolsheviks point man on nationality he was the nationality. In among the bolsheviks and he decided that the region. Should be a part of there by john b. You know within the within the territory by john. And its ethnic make the exactly its ethnically armenian the armenians were going on about this is the need is there that this would be a part of i mean but he decided to be a part of us there by john in large part because the bolsheviks was seeking to appeal to the muslims of asia and also the muslims of the of the what became the u. S. S. R. And in particular to turkey. Thats right and the nascent bolshevik regime was making great efforts to. Keep turkey happy. So that back when it was set up now of course it didnt really matter so much within the u. S. S. R. Because everybody just did as they were told by the leadership in my. But when he when the soviet union broke up in that completely chaotic. Way then of course these national issues. It was one thing to be for the armenians of the border guard about the buyout of us led by john which was within the soviet union and its quite another thing to be part of us that by john which is now an independent state i mean really going on since since the breakup of the soviet union one of the things that makes it different than what we saw from the original complex coming out of the end of the soviet union was in the late eightys early ninetys i want to be unimpressed this you in this case both countries are relatively well armed now. Even though azerbaijan has significantly more well because of oil and russia is supplies the arms to both countries more or less here but the difference in this case this time around is its becoming much more internationalized turkey is playing a major role here and a lot of people are very critical of turkeys role here israel is involved others want to pull in iran this is the internationalization of it if it were internationalize it would be a repeat weve seen a number of times this is what makes it different this time. Well youre absolutely right i think. A lot of qantas just behaving irresponsibly to this company. I would just suggest you compare the statements of president and the statements of the graben and got just open to say yes i code we will support everything in azerbaijan thinks it makes sense to do it for its security i mean what kind of my gosh you aim to do it if he does that yeah so that is certainly. Sponsible on the side of turkey baster why did it become possible turkey has not behaved so responsibly in during the last conflict and in 1940 basically with the big 3 or one media well i think the reason is basically what happened in the last i would say 1015 years just let me remind you when turkey syria in 2000 you havent 1012 all been everyone reported the western press reports of the turkey supported you know the terrorist groups that entered syria from the north it was not a secret nato was on the side of turkey let me remind you of that when syria downed turkish fighter planes always its territory in the beginning all the war quite legally because the turkish fighter plane was on the syrian the syrian air space nato even had a crisis meeting they were deciding what to do in order to support to make it. Ironically just a few years later in 2000 i guess 19 when turkey moved against their American Allies in the north of syria against the kurds that any future of nato was completely different they started talking about ever gone trespassing the borders over sovereign state or syria which they didnt care about just a few years ago right so it was a complete change of attitude. Unfortunately after gun kind of you know what did you love it so if you do think that the west not object to youre free to act as you walk as you want basically in this situation he decided that it was just about time to to give support to and then by july that early coverage is yours and ill jump back to sid. Then one of the things that we discussed all 3 of us to discuss previously is that why disturb you do it is because it can do it here and thats it thats a very dangerous form almost the ok because youre not thinking about the consequences of it george there are there are media reports that oh well its through a turkish channels that you have fighters from syria and libya and the in the caliber of that these are militants this one description or another theyre being transported into this conflict into the box that is a very dangerous step here and considering what demon just said about the reaction to turkey we have to french president speaking very very clearly that this is a very Dangerous Development according to reports george yes the reports certainly credible and i dont know what extent theyve been going on but they are widely. Accessible reports and its certainly consistent with Everything Else that no one has done i mean a great remember initially there were these jihadi terrorists who were transferred from libya to syria you need to talk them out of the overthrow of gaddafi and then recently transferred. These from syria to libya so that we would be publicly plausible. Now be transpiring jihadi fighters from syria thereby get. It as you say why is there no one doing this yet because he can he figures that if he creates enough trouble than he is heavy defeats on the armenians then you know russia and the rest of the mince group will have to accept realities on the ground. You know the armenians will have to give up some territory within hours or by johnson to the charity of my going to be reduced and then aired on will. Hale this is a great victory yet another frances Foreign Policy but also that we signal the defeat for Russian Foreign minister. That they really dont think is you know i mean people talk about america while in this neo ottoman is a 1000000 things like that i mean theres a literature on it and maybe its a pipe dream too but one thing is undeniable in all of this this is a major irritant for russia because russia trades with these country i mean even to the point with the kind of military hardware with planes very example both governments need permission from russia to use them in military absent here i mean this is a real annoyance for the kremlin here and maybe thats the whole point go ahead. Well i would say that both sides of course have arguments in their favor and i dont buy junk some arguments too because well i just you know lets be clear the cannot about a bishop legally under International Law is part of us or by juggling absolutely and when the war ended in 1904 as i said it was armenians victory and most of their refuse genie is from the government car park where ethnic azerbaijan yes not only is and i want to cover a bar armenian control but also several jason. Districts or over again by jump rope on armenian control so i think what we should all pray for is that baku just wants to get back to these areas which are not populated almost by a new one right now that would be i think the best outcome because it would be you know the formula security in return for terrorists in action but unfortunately there is a high risk its not going to happen because both sides are raising the stakes you know the latest reports are that armenian missiles some army and a huge area have targeted ganja which is the 2nd largest city in azerbaijan. That just kind of raises the stakes dramatically in this situation so both sides have arguments in their favor and the russian interests at this very simple just stop fighting trying to resolve with by peaceful means because if there are if youre just of course a lot of them will go to russia. And and then the more i think. A few due to this conflict because if we go back to history you know both sides will find those arguments in their favor. But you arent absolutely right that its an era for russia i think its not just an irritant its a very bad situation for all the International Community and the west is also in a precarious situation here because initially in the late eightys the russians liberals. And the west basically supported an armenian side but i was there by john joint who are you know this anti Russian Coalition or for soviet states the exit use in the west suddenly changed and there was more and more sympathy for i stand by john so basically i think. There is only one solution is just to stop fighting and restart the formula experience in return for security because you know what destructor weapons its very interesting is that in the in the late eightys and early ninetys. Around could have played a very important mediating role but that they were shut out by the west again and again a regional player a very important and powerful one was shut out of a process that could have. Had a Peace Process internationalize instead of having someone like everyone trying to flare up the conflict. Will quit will end on this point george i think well know its all over when everyone is summoned to sochi. For a good. But i think that at some point russia would have to intervene in a more decisive fashion russian novel to be marginalized in this process so if one is able to hail this as a great victory. For russia as the great power in the region russia mediated the the end of the previous conflicts it chemical will to weaken in a decade that there were going to go to a short break and after a short break well continue our discussion on some real news state with our team. Because i want to look at what why yes why do you know. How lucky. We hope to be but there are also friends that the us are still slow but theyre still feel hoping to do something to see. The charge. They have about the physical act the cell phone and i will say with some of them that you know well look at that. Welcome back to crossed up where all things are considered im curious about trauma. We were discussing some real news. Ok lets go to d. M. Lets switch gears a little bit here i came across an absolutely fascinating article in the american conservative by a writer Helen Andrews and her her article is a 2020 is tumbling towards 9 117. 00 subtitle we think were safe from revolution were wrong its already in the works what do you think about the comparison of whats happening in the us politically in this very formal she was year and reflection about what happened historically in 1970 and in the russian empire that would soon come to an end. Well its rare that you read sides being seen in the American Media because its and then for the American Ultra liberal to compare more than the United States to the soviet union you know the the poor comparisons to will spot in years more but in fact for me you know due to my historical knowledge of russia and due to their summations that i made up to go wife right now the perilous up all of us you know that not just because theyre striking you know i think that the reason for that perilous is that theyre out there now we have basically to look at than it did in his most here which have a lot of things in common you know tromp is on a board to do so and this stood to put it in his mind you know the 3rd off the nazis and corman which is now basically rooted in do think that states you know instead of him and elected president this is that i do all your ultra liberalism that is really in the United States and trumka not trivialize it so he just traces it back to you know the soviet ball should be examined and the marxism well there are parallels. But these are different and youre just paradox in ready because you know the technology is seen you find a Certain Group of individuals a social group you declare them to have been oppressed historically no you claim to have the right to represent the is formally oppressed minority and to act on their behalf indicator to bring russia into right even though theyre going to read between the lines there so theres also makes them look like life matter going to historical in the whole is absolute and its not just had an endurance that drew attention to this but also peter suffered in europe in the tablet which is an american magazine on religious affairs here published fascinating article called. Walk america is a russian novel published it in july and let me just quote that you know he talks about you have given your bizarre effect character or turn again of snow will return in the mid 19th century but not a few bolshevik so to speak a nihilist you know this is when the war nihilist became popular in russia and later on in the whole world so let me just called Peter Sullivan one wonders even buzz out of is there different from todays protest and state you populace the twinkies some thinks sowing discord in our news rooms the castle culture its the global hawk the social part who police our social media feeds well this is exactly true because you know the problem with bolshevism is that its less of an ideology its less the communists it says its acknowledge of coming to power. You shut down all your corner you declare everyone who disagrees an enemy you to go. Everyone who disagrees and reactionary and story just walked in the wall street journal for example where you have that opinion beach fighting in the news room you know that being in beijing all today would be gross theyre like the constitutional democrats who toppled the czar in february 1017. 00 be called to create a new rebuttal russia and me if you will and then you throw out the bolsheviks you know what was actually us there already sidelining all the American People in the ways in the same way bolshevik sidelined constitutional democrats in russia and you know the reason why this can happen on george the reason why this is going up because theres a crisis of legitimacy ok thats this that is the ultimate parallel its the bolsheviks in 1917 or of france in 1789. 00 i mean its always about the lack of legitimacy and you have people within the power structures that are fueling on this illegitimacy ok they are actually destroying the system then sell its a this is not a bottom up thing thats a top down thing again jurors know theres rights mentioned to gain of fathers and sons i would cite in other great russian novel which is perhaps even more apt which is does the us is the process because it was condense that the nihilist or you know some of them and some of them were. Extreme socialist were really are the product of the liberals of the earlier generation the liberals of the earlier generation that encourage this nihilism this destructiveness and they had lost the radical movement but what was really a stunning about that novel is the complete collapse of the order of the old all of the just collapse like a house of cards and so you know just as you wrote this almost 40 years before 917 and before the postal exactly what happened the entire. Russian governmental structure what it has been there for hundreds of years collapsed like a house of cards and thats really whats and thats what there was a kind of a rock from within and thats what you see in the United States because you wish trumps real problem its within the intelligence military security establishment they are openly defying the elected president theyre openly speaking of them does it with disdain as if he had no legitimacy they they criticize he is his moves when he went to that church and play at square you know has the military chiefs criticizing and trump really didnt have the strength you dont have doesnt have the political strength to fire all these people and which and therefore sure you know this election turned out to be the chaos and that it looks like its going to be then we should expect some sort of an insurrection within the government and trump made might be able to do very much about it you know in the in the know the people on the political left in the United States are indeed are are just. Absurdly historical in their thinking they think it cant happen to us we can control this we know how to manage it know that that theyre missing history here theyre good theyre not theyre not students of history once you start stuff like this its almost impossible to control it and they end up being the victims of it a bench a leap ok this is not this theyre playing with fire here just because they hate the man in the oval office here the implications of which are are are enormous you cant control this kind of thing go ahead. You are absolutely right and the problem is that you know what you should be exposed to want and russia and them the you with bolshevism you know their Foreign Policy in the United States its vice versa you know theyre all to liberals 1st you must. Give one a speech and of political leaders outside the United States they used to. In serbia they used it against ukraine they used it against russia and now they using it against their own president so that they can or would you of come into power over the new bolsheviks of liberals as they hold them its very simple the persona you fight evil you know they they dont talk about historical process they dont talk about according to history just there is an evil man you know running this country and life will be beautiful you know ok they removed and what do we have that we have a civil war its a much more complicated society than just you know one evil man controlling everything and i agree completely with george you know in the process by just ask you please know that. Im a negative character that evolutionary. Hes father is an all star ribeiro you know and hes portrayed satirically in the beginning of the novel so basically he does that yes he predicted that the future bolsheviks will come from westernized liberals they will stem from them you know he also george you know if you look what you know we all know the techniques that the bolsheviks used to come to power and they understood how collar work i give them not the rest of the ideology i know but they understood that but if you were if youre a student of history and youre a student of the bolsheviks it makes me think of Stephen Cohen who just recently passed away he wrote the seminal book i think on the bolsheviks and that was one who caught it and what happened to him he was a victim of a huge purge committed in 1937 and the same kind of courage will come to these people ok because they let this this very toxic i call that ideological possession theyre possessed people this is this is beyond reason you know it will come for them eventually history proves it over and over again go ahead george because were rapidly yes i think thats exactly right and. Thats what happens when you Start Playing this very dangerous game people who should know better. Think that oh well you know this will get us the power once we are in power then we can just call this a cold war these mad dogs and well be nice and safe no it doesnt really work that way you know as the old bolsheviks found yeah i think got rid of all of the enemies the cool actually. Are is bureaucracy its either you know the entire sotiris establishment they would be safe no it came up to them and it was the old bolsheviks who were swept aside so yeah thats exactly what what will happen here and what is it already this very very narrow goal of seizing power they you know they they seize power that is they believe that it is their legitimate their right or this power overthrow and there would be there and it never works that way you know again the one of the interesting thing for me i mean when we talk a lot about ideology or nights and youre the best you know it particularly in the in the west in general but particularly in the United States theres a huge economic turndown this is adding on to this because you have these elements that use this ideology for political reasons but the inadvertently or are slaney the economic and financial discontent of people so youre going to get this this mixture of this and this is going to be a very interesting a brew hear it because people are going to countries poorer i mean nobody wants to admit it in media your country is poor and now were not like a lot like matter we have this intentional need the legitimizing. Tradition law rule of law and thats why i wanted to talk about this article last 15 seconds going to you got him yeah well im going to commute and i about iconoclasm here you know. We will be dismissed by liberal media for comparing this name to states now to russia 1700 more for you guys to get angry just off me a wash you know all by the liberals the polish historian and writer your old why bolsheviks was also important in wait for just the feel the void you know what o. B. L. Am and others are doing and doing a speech theyre creating the boy they say a destroyer legion thing youre lucky with theres a whole lot more to talk about on another episode of cross i want to make my guess it must go in but it doesnt want to make our viewers watching us here arent you see you next time remember. The us economy was booming doing numbers of people made homeless. You can work 40 hours in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still is the land of opportunity the reality if it were not financially equality and the lack of fordable housing or living minimum wage give many people no choice. Thats been a problem with the city and always turn their backs on and told you stay way out almost. Its worth it if there is no answer because yes the reports resource the most vulnerable are abandoned on the streets to become invisible cooks. The world is driven by. The. Thinks. We dared to ask. Armenia and azerbaijan edge closer to all out war as the conflict over to go back and as a 2nd week we report from inside the disputed caucuses territory. Things like this one home one here in the corner care about this tiny village alone was battered by 6 massive is one of them landed and this is all the devastation that it has left. Tensions boil over in israel as antigovernment demonstrators defy new coronavirus restrictions banning mass gatherings. While in paris a major spike in daily covert infections they seized the french capital
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