Until that ultimate conquered. Because of the nobility in 4053 and there converted into a mosque now under other turkey in the early 20th century they made it into im you see its part of it secular i say sion to make it into well as i should put it positioning it urges a secular state and also along with and or sister to be a good bridge between the east and west so imitating some of history but also being more european so again i can understand why turkish muslims then would like to we will not care for the fact that our most cus been clear to me see him for almost a century and it would like kept returned to a place of worship however they shouldnt also recognize that for christians to have similar concerns a serious affair was not billed as a most ill thats like a video. And this kind of this is the National Sovereignty of course of turkey to decide what it should do and how everything indicates what kind of country turkey will be obviously things like pluralism and respect for other faiths this doesnt really signal that this is our skipper to use a rather specific that in itself. Will essentially history now represents one of conquests and subjugation of christians so its its i mean this major between east and west the seams turkey a suspect or worse as setting itself on the front line and that clash of civilization by session it s. That being all over a christian landmark. By solely converting it to mosques now run the thing that. If youre not going to hurt us and we see if you can at least how does a place of worship for christians us who are so far the turks are simply are you. Know it will be you know buddhists hindus increases their ok coming this is a tourist destination. But its not of this sort of this nation is our christian landmarks confidently so going to misses the whole point about seniors yes social robots are cathedral you know its a bit i think what glenn said it is and is well said because this is a obviously historically important to christianity however the nominal christian west was kind of hohum about the whole thing i mean that theres very little. Reaction to a unilateral decision to critically sense turkey is under International Obligations to be sensitive to the religious artifacts of other religions and now that seems to been abrogated and and this tossed was go ahead alan wasnt it i mean i think this is punch at the fact that christianity is not a simple thing to in the west is it wants woese in fact you see in the west increasingly not just the secular i say she friends but perhaps tear i say it in some places and anti christian trends we shes been gaining full size and i think that these events does not have the significance in the west that he does over there he wants to act in the east and east and also doxie its different i mean also doxie to a great extent actually develops in its present full as pawns hope the system of worship lets to place in this chip and it is as important tool as the docs christians as say peters basilica in rugby is to catholics say hes easy radek. Full of events and the other concern that i think many Orthodox Christians would have is that of course hes full of treasures leftover from the time when he was a church their existence is inconsistent with it being a mosque there may come a day when the more militant form of islam decides that these. Christian symbols and christian art work and simply inconsistent with the present. There is another factor which i think is not me given the attention that it deserves which is that when adults are made the decision to confess the church into the last back into the museum he was doing to say things firstly he was secular ricing and westernizing tacky now that is being rude 1st he was also doing Something Else which is that he was signaling to the neighboring countries the neighboring christian and former christian countries greece so union and all the rest the turkey was intent on being a good name is very much part of camelot or to extoll or see it thats on a major route across not with soviet union people tend to forget very major red cross more with greece now values facing this decision at the same time the gun is a joking a much more assertive Foreign Policy that signals to many people in the in the area around that policy that answer so cannot it so it had is being abandoned is being pushed aside so it has the major resonance in the east it is not absent such great interest in the west glenn it is there to lend making a statement to the muslim world i mean obviously hes made this decision because he can do it i mean if the sovereignty issue. In a modern sense but this is and he certainly doesnt care what the nominal christian countries of the west now say and and of course its of an affront to to greece being the most important or the ducks country neighboring it and this is a message to the muslim world it is a kind of been a neo ottoman ism issue headline well and it could be because so a lot of us authorities. Express this the cyrus take a bit of a leadership position in the role and again as you mentioned its a neo modern and. Their position is how it was to some extent its also influenced this all takes in syria i think its been very gone and now i think this ability to essentially stand up to the International Community and also stand up to the west and say listen we will do as we want to please. You with that are we to chase you know islam and in this fight against the western christianity i think you know that has some. Cultural. Value if you want and obviously this could have your negative cases for the wider region because if they really want to be kind of a role model and a leader of the wider region now is to be noted out across the middle east christians are treated as you know sir court record anderson a lot of oppression of christians so therefore a target and. Especially abound in. This protection of this. Courtroom at the trial and for christians it does stand out as being a very negative Development Also dangerous for the rest of the region so but again its not quite clear if if its meant i mean for the mystical audience or d international. Well lets i mean irrespective it is that it is making a an impact in the muslim world i mean you know i visited. It is a stupendous architectural achievement considering when it was founded and built but right across from it is the blue mosque which is an absolutely exquisite piece of architecture as well it seems to me that this is being made for political and even religious reasons because theres no shortage of mosques in turkey obviously and the blue mosque itself was built and designed as a mosque itself in the hug a sophia. It was designed for very completely different purposes and i truly regret that the International Community secular or otherwise doesnt want to step in and and exert some kind of pressure to preserve the essence and the origins and the meaning of this church and i think not and thats whats most regrettable in my book this is actually region because of course hes in fact age of caution from traditional muslim practice to convert a church into a mosque if you get back to the 7th century when the muslims captions jerusalem the patriarch of jerusalem christian patriarch invited the colleagues up to pray in the church of the only separate and he refused because he did not long stick to convert the church of the whom he sent into a mosque he was consent of the interests of christians and also establishing a new religion we had sent places of worship this is a departure from the tradition of his mom think it is also an assertion by. All the new policy of tacky which is to try to become the elite are all a form of this long since its a signal all sex is that of a country which has been asserting its own. Recently as the leader of this we saudi arabia its a turkey is now the real eater of islam and its very interesting to see the country search our law in saudi arabia in the muslim world like egypt egypt has a major role eastland. Scholarship to see all of the the land leadership media has opposed this step because they see it 1st it isnt compulsion but they also see it as a challenge to these stoutish leadership all places like mecca and caro as a center is all these let me well so its actually a very assertive step that guns done it puts you back in the tradition also they also lets couper of course also claims leadership who slum when they were in that primary when they were trying to at least leadership of sunni islam says it is a necessity step one which im jency is fully recognized in the west as it was a major challenge and ken youre going to say youre absolutely right when you mention its huge on tuesday significance this is this church as an extraordinary. Example of whats and again that is perhaps discounted and maybe. Being a little bit about this but i mean if a major cost outside of the muslim world were converted into a church or secularize to be a huge outcry again i think this is a more of a comment on the. Lack of faith in the west than it is their adoption about their ideologies like secularism communism postmodernism right gentlemen im going to let jump in here were going to go to a short break and out about short break well continue our discussion of say 30. You cant be both with the yeah you like. We go to work some straight home. Welcome back to cross up were all things are considered on people about to remind you were discussing some real. Ok lets go back to alex in london we have this major diplomatic brouhaha heating up over the north stream pipeline the gas line gas line from russia to germany the germans are still are updating in their heels here give us the background of the story mites and or well known stream suit is the latest lloyd its the bills between russia which used to generate the all the supply of natural gas to Central Europe its the east built on lines to germany stream long now theres an old street suit understood street which is the sultan want money partly these are intended clearly john this isnt far away from the plot lines that went through ukraine but theyre also 8 economic the economic construction which makes sense both for europe. And for russia russia has lots of gas which is wants to sell Central Europe specially has need of gas which it wants to vote like what is now happening is that the United States is increasingly acting against these economic developments and hes trying to block in the street just as he has tried to gloss quire way in britain because hes trying to impose the law just all the members of the western alliance it doesnt straight china it doesnt want to thank you russia it wants them to take only the United States all with each other and to separate themselves from the launching world that exists in full is openness lee provoking a very strong reaction in germany because it is going to be a blow to germanys economic independence from the United States but it is also. Going against germanys interests as a country that hes feeding more mole selfconfidence and wants to such itself independently since it is obsessing about this ok look let me i know its didnt mention probably the most important word and it mean im not and im not downplaying his wonderful answered my question here but the word sovereignty comes to mind here i mean the germans are expressing their right to sovereignty and theyre all in Energy Security and not just germanys Energy Security but for Central Europe is this these 2 pipelines will essentially be a hub but this is something the United States of course i mean they want their european allies to buy liquefied natural gas from the United States ship sent by ship that is far more expensive ok and i would like to point out to our viewers during the worst times of the cold war. Europe important russia soviet and natural gas that conflict is over whats whats whats in play here lets go ahead well it is interesting because every since the 2nd world war this set is huge and presence and influence d of the United States over a year as opposed to the day and to protect here and indeed this recent just by the United States was to ensure p. And Energy Security so again its america will be our protector however this kind of this ng to david a little bit from the latera because theyre not going sanctioning the russians all in other sanctioning state sanctioned europeans so its like america is now the guarding of europe however. Exactly what does it or read about souls or captive nations of the us or we merely in our children of the us must an issue if were unable to take care of ourselves so sanctioning European Companies in order to keep european Energy Security it does seem a bit absurd and obviously ad and this is where you know the may conflict comes in between the u. S. And germany now as well so of course in many contradictions there are on the european side been saying European Security its our Energy Security as a concept where they would have greater ownership over the infrastructure of their you know course insurance if your current form or forms however now that European Companies are fearful of american sanctions a lot of this is not ending up with russia so it is unclear exactly what theyre doing in denmark now so you know its reasonable to speculate that theyve been loosening restrictions lately only under german pressure and it is only because they want to finish it sooner now because its either american sanctions are coming in so lets not drag this out lets finish it all so there is this very weird dynamic at the moment and again the u. S. Is very mush reacting to losing this economic levers of power salis on. I know that they have similarities with roy no of course the you know they had taken the streets theyre losing a bit older its so different the dysfunction of their allies as well the Russian Energy section their ally the new transportation kooris well youre also threatening the european allies new investment banks their Payment System you also threaten your own most of the more the u. S. Loses its leverage you see the more it will use economic coercion not just against other serious are also allies and as alex put out puts a critically i guess that outcome is. Dog sit up to come just like germany down more incentive not to not completely the couple at least the 1st 5 or ties and that is an interesting outcome the germans are now taking a stand against americas this is very unusual this is very much american a result of their policies well alex its some its something that the u. S. Has initiated i mean its not germany looking for bad relations with the United States apart from it ok but i mean its forcing the issue i mean germany is not a country that you trifle with ok i mean its its making sovereign decisions about its economy and its thinking about the well being of the European Union is well its trading neighbors i mean the most amazing thing for me historically at least is that the last time we have this kind of blot discipline is when the when the comiccon countries the the countries are in the soviet orbit they were forced to trade with got countries they know it was mandated from moscow ok and now and now you have the same kind of behavior being mimicked by washington because the more they do this the more theyre pushing their trading partners away this is exactly the point and in fact will again she says it is that they can to encourage more will come to this to find ways around the use the american dollar system because that shes been used to enforce the sanctions ultimately. Asia is a self defeating exercise the whole countrys you sanction and sanctions now almost out of control the United States is sanctioning left right and center as glenn correctly said theyre not sanctioning their allies the sanctioning companies oh theyre not honest it is completely out of control more you do that the greater the incentive for more people to get together and find ways around the United States and that will ultimately undermine it all the system which is not in americas interest however the europeans have to some extent its been very clear about his own selves because they joined. Previous american sanctions exercises against didnt run against russia rings you sound it is way lower venezuela exactly nothing to them paula they find it this way they hate to some extent helps to construct hes being used against them and this i think shows how misconceived some of this really of policy decisions actually europe which is a much more open in terms of trade defense germany is a country thats tense heavily on trade so does the netherlands so do other countries a year they should be extremely wary of going down sanctions routes the United States is a much more selfsufficient so concerned he told me it can be seen geo political objectives of the europeans went along with it and now theyre paying cross you know glad to have the argument that the administration the Us Administration is making weve had it from donald trump and from like a oh is it we cant detach all this from nato because its much their own bridge you know you have a country like germany that wants to connect its Energy Fortunes with russia but russia is supposed to be the enemy and you need to be things putting more money and nato in for them you know you know for the germans to say you want to spend what money on nato but russia is our trading partner here and this is what drives trump and pompei or crazy because how can you be become a trading partner with an enemy why arent you spending more money on nato and ill tell you why the germans and most of the europeans like but there is no threat there thats why they dont want to spend the money on it we want to have trading relations because you know what russia is the Largest Consumer market in europe. And thats been one of the key challenges of the United States in the past there were you know leading military power and economic power but now they see it out there that their ability to convert their role as a Security Product into this you know geoeconomic loyalty to you know use their technologies their companies their you know thats in the back there their course is actually weakening so so what did they do to try to make this link that if you if you depend on the store security this us to be are also expressed in your economic policies again not a very unreasonable proposition to make however as you point out that this idea that you know russia is waiting you know russian tanks waiting to roll into berlin no one really thinks that its this great of threat so you can hide their russian threat in order to create further security dependence and try to convert it into economical it is really it is it seems to be failing and making it worse its not just it was just russia will be one thing but theyre doing the same with with with the chinese and across the board so its a its becoming is and the americans are the mounding more and more and theyre capable of delivering less. You would think that some point they were going to change their ways because this is obviously pushing europeans away and if you get some actions are best when you use moderately and. And this excessive amount of sanctions youre senshi just teaching the rest of the world to live without the United States and thats i think the lesson that you know the europeans arent speaking up to us the interesting thing is real traditional prickly alex is that you know we had president ial candidate joe biden outflank trump and have a new buy America Thing or strong has make America Great again but you know i guess no other country can make themselves great again because they want to protect their sovereignty is only a one way street ok only one country can have sovereignty everyone else has to do with less. Well the survivor seconds go right this is exactly what the United States has philosophy has made for the last 30 years i mean ever since the socalled unicode a moment happens the United States sees the world very much as being the United States leadership and that most agents Economic Leadership and it doesnt want to see that challenge and of course the question aids whether other countries all prepared now to sacrifice zayra interests in order to keep the United States british position primarys every relationship has 2 parties at the very least ok and i think people in washington have to realize that the other party has an opinion too gentlemen thats all the time we have i want to thank our viewers for watching as the iraqi see you next time remember us up walls. I 1st heard about we you know. From the helicopter for troops in iraq. I think that down actually people in the know i mean its military who have never forgiven or. Forgotten frater the truth of the book and every little thing you believe you saw it was really starting to happen. In the pentagon journalese died because you dared to see a lot of crimes to outnumber the audience. The idea of developing an anonymous digital top dogs and applying it to Media Consultants except that was a friends. I didnt destroy and just retain it with me for a short while. In the room one of the worlds most powerful news will remain very serious and its going to celebrate founder to the song to the song knowing. That there was a great deal of jealousy the right spring for the song the fit why wont it be more like oh they have hugh seen all. The suits me. Smile good. For. Me julia aside in solitary confinement in the prison for terrorists await you know how its a live person. I dont see him dying. And i. Know what hes saying. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation whole community. Are you going the right way or are you being led. By. What is true what is faith. In the world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or a maybe in the shallows. The American City of portland turns into a war zone is double trouble sons and fund agents. Will look at how its tactics echo those used by previous president s over things through improve their reelection chances. Paying for historical damages to cities in america to initiate reparations for minority communities a move that is being questioned by some. Whos going to pay for it are you dont pay for a reason to your own tax money how about me out of all tax money really ends up dollars to come up with payment for people. And they couldnt come up with the same amount of money feels restored africanamericans in this country
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