More than 103. 00 and 4. 00 star generals from over 70 countries with which we entertain regular contacts but also which are engaged in their day to day life into military operations so its the exchange of experience and they have a classical exchange a very Practical Exchange of experts and this is the 1st time that this workshop is being held in russia where Russias Defense Ministry acting as the bounce partner and i assume there are lots of people and cultures who dont like Russias Defense Ministry as an entity let along and contact in military zones such as syria have you experienced any pushback on holding this specific event in this country i. C. R. C. Has no likes and dislikes of ministries and im sure you see here in dealing with the low internal intrigues and well we do have. We appreciate the contacts with military is of defense with armed forces thats the core activity of i. C. R. C. And we have been very appreciative for after some explanations also of the last 2 years to have agreement from the ministry of defense to host this workshop i think it is important that armed forces who have practical experience and who are engaged in todays military battlefield side at the same time host and it gives credibility to a workshop i had the privilege of interviewing him before when the syrian conflict was at its nadir and when the criticism of russias military conduct in syria was very loud there a problem and then. As this war is now a drawing to a close hopefully drawing to a close in large part thanks to russias own efforts how would you characterize russias observance of the laws of war in syria on itself and relative to other partners other actors well you can easily imagine i. C. R. C. Is not here to judge we kick you late concerns obviously one of the big issues that we have seen recently in yemen in iraq in syria in all the context in the middle east is for instance urban warfare and so one of the Big Questions today also in the experiences of the past couple of years is always what are and what do the classical principles of International Humanitarian law distinction proportionality precaution mean when you are confronted with urban contexts of warfare with densely Populated Areas in which you use modern technology modern weapons and what are you are obligations to precaution and the obvious that i see or see as the advocate for protection of civilians may not always. The same. Appreciation and the same exactly according to judge military operations us military story so its really about this dialogue between the humanitarian protection perspective and the military necessity perspective now there has been no one whos been lambasted more for supposin disregard total disregard of the humanitarian law down the syrian authorities and i take it from some of your interviews that this phrase total disregard may not be accurate in describing the stance of the of the Syrian Government in fact i know that the i. C. R. C. Has done a study looking specifically into where when the law was upheld and while it was broken in the syrian context do you understand now the drivers the incentives and the hurdles that allowed or not allowed the syrian authorities to respect the humanitarian the International Humanitarian or in the context when it was very difficult you have to admit it was very difficult to respect that law i c r c is not. Generalizing. Condemnations or generalizing praise on International Humanitarian law we are very much aware and have been for 156 years and how of the complexity of the battlefields and the difficulties as technology is battlefields actors and contexts evolve to apply the basic rules of International Humanitarian law so each case has to be looked at individually we dont have armed forces or armies or nonstate our groups just only does regarding International Humanitarian law this happens very very we dont have those who spoke perfectly so we do recognize that the syrian context has always been a difficult context its a context of fragment. Actors of multiple actors of unclear change of command. Certainly on the level of nonstate armed groups but even complex chains of command in syria. On the side of the syrian army we have seen the complexities also with russias involvement in syria of how you partner with. Amongst 2 armies and where are the rules and responsibility of each one of those armies and i think this workshop that you have alluded to is a great opportunity to look. For just will not be publicized trying to get some information out if you will for the benefit of general audience you you mentioned those principles that guide the legal use of force in an Armed Conflict one of those principles with the military in the south city as well and i think all the military is operating. On the syrian battlefield with claim that they take all these principles into account who is their job whether they do their proper it i think its not about together its not about the judgment its about not knowing generally its well its about is looking at your rules of media and then see what you can introduce in your Decision Making process to have at the end of the day better results i dont think that the end result is the effort off i see or see the process is the effort of i. C. R. C. Looking at what are the precautionary measures that you can introduce i give you an example. There is a big question today in armed forces on where you introduce for instance the lawyers the practitioners in the Decision Making process you can introduce them at the beginning you can give them a last word at the end whether a military attack is in conformity with the law you have different results you can for instance in urban warfare you can have longer or shorter or no warning periods for the civilian populations you have a lot of things you can do went which are completely below the rather screen of public controversy i think we have to go to the granularity of each and every issue and also to recognise there is nothing like virginity in war it is always complex the balance is difficult and i think its about how do you. When you do reviews when youre too training when youre too manuals how and what do you train to your troops but i think its also important to sort of call her spade and spade and throughout this conflict where hard times and times again that assad is killing his own people its a trial now that the Syrian Government is going on youre here to. But not from us. I mean the you know really with the conflict as it is not just as it relates to you but in all its complexity and some forces like the Syrian Government have to deal with where the security challenges openly other sides like the United States for example may authorize convert operations which may do a lot of harm to this issue in population but make it much less visible thats why im asking you who is there to judge whether the laws are applied fairly because you know that western powers for example made it part of their policy to diligent the mise the Syrian Government because of those allegations that the use of force that the disrespect for the humanitarian law is all abundant in syria with regard to i. C. R. C. Israel our role is not to judge our role is to facilitate a better implementation and to support states who have signed up to the Geneva Conventions in their effort there are as you know national and International Accountability structures which are here to deal with violations with serious violations with war crime with crimes against humanity you know what these structures are but deliberately i. C. R. C. Has stood away from accountability processes i think still today the prevalent accountability has to rely on the national processes on the processes within armed forces to see whether they are directive and their instructions have been respected and in case you also know that there is an International Criminal court there are procedures internationally to deal with war crimes and crimes against humanity but rarely deliberately there are 2. With regard to the respect of International Humanitarian law and ours clearly with regard to our mandate from the Geneva Convention is the one. Supporting and facilitating implementation and this is a different pathway. Let me ask you then a specific question because there is one battle been constantly postponed in the syrian the war im talking about the battle over in flip and i heard you say that due to the interrelatedness between this of alien population and the rebels you personally cannot imagine how a lawful war can be waged in lip. Are you saying that an alternative that is living the situation as it is where tens of thousands of extremist i mean terrorised by un stand there its waging attacks on the military on this of alien population in the state controlled areas is a better outcome should they should these guys just be left to their own devices when we advocate for highest precautions in context were civilians and military is ours so we intertwined and when civilian and military infrastructure are so intertwined i think this is really the time for. Negotiations for. Alternative solutions you have seen for instance in the context of for their goal that the Russian Military negotiated for quite some time the evacuation of city there are no other areas these people could be evacuated to unless there are example switzerland wants to take their men this is exactly what the goshi ations are here for and i think it is important that even in the context of International Humanitarian law one in view of the prevalent risk such complex situation in order in warfare be it most school or easily eventually in the future that space is given to alternative solution to a massive military attack in or you know of a nereus we dont see that. This should not happen but what we do see is that appropriate time and space has been given has to be given in order to find alternative solution for civilian populace whats left of our we have to take a short break now well be back in just a few moments stay tuned. Welcome back to worlds apart repeat them our president of the International Committee of their brother crossed mr mara just before the break we were talking you were talking about. The importance of negotiations and allowing safe spaces especially for the civilians and this is what has been done in the context of friendly for at least a year now during that time the territory controlled by the new reincarnation of al qaeda in the province has increased from some 57 percent to around 4045 percent and these people continue launching attacks and harm the civilian population elsewhere when you advocate for that as for that small process for essentially ignoring the military necessity because there is a military need to take them out indirectly privilege joining the civilians in rebel controlled areas it is part of International Humanitarian law that there must be a reasonable balance between military necessity and the protection of civilians if in the context like youd leave the protection concerns are sold visible so great and so preponderant it is important that in the balance is is factored in we cant have rules of war ended to National Humanitarian law only following the logic of military necessity thats the very least cannot ignore it altogether and very certainly cannot ignore it and thats our point all together as you may need to review in organization and as guardian of the Geneva Conventions that we are trying to see through dialogue through your many tyrian through. It is that we are for space also for this pond the ration to be done that we try to be and to advise. Countries and to cross sexually and globally also to all learn from one battlefield to the other what precautionary steps can be but we dont exclude military operations its the very essence and difference between the humanitarian and the Human Rights Organization now a few years ago i heard you say that the conflicts in syria and iraq allowed the i. C. R. C. To develop a more sophisticated methodology for distinguishing between civilians and combatants are you still confident that you can do that especially in the syrian context and especially as it relates to mine there is an younger man who may not have reached 18 young but her have been trained by their fathers to kill or who have witnessed killing i mean from a humanitarian point of view there they are civilians but from a Security Point of view they are present them as bigger risk than their elderly grandmother serial have to agree to that well the i. C. R. C. In the customary International Law studies has proposed to deal with the distinction of combatants and civilians and we have always maintained that it is the direct participation and the immediacy of diary participation which make a civilian the combatant and make the civilian lose its status so whether. Somebody is a minor but is carries a gun and is involved in a military operation though he loses civilian status when he is a minor according to the Childrens Convention then we still have a preference to look at also as a victims who have been drawn by adults in. To this situation so its upon duration of the concrete realities that we have to be able to do or the present moment but i do not neglect. The the fact that a lot of young men below 18 have been weapons bearers in some of these conflicts and has been involved is a big challenge to International Humanitarian law which takes away the a certain stability that the International Humanitarian law had been previously in into a state of war fear and this is of course the new battlefield reality which is of concern to us now i think its also a challenge when it comes to your combatants you personally called for what i say is humane treatment of former combatants and subjecting them to a fair trial. How confident can you be in that somebody who invested 5 or 70 years of his life fighting alongside isis witnessing and participating in all the atrocities can ever become a former combatant. Well look our experience over the last decades and i would say over the last 100 years of clearly demonstrated and showed that whether de yard prisoners of war combatants who came into the attention of state or nonstate on groups that ill treatment of these people will lead to another sort of cycle of violence i think your main treatment of detainees is absolutely essential to break the vicious cycle of violence and to reintegrate those who have been involved in unlawful operations are brought back into society i think its evidence speaking about bringing them back to society its not a secret that there are now major tashas between the United States and europe including russia about what has to be done to those 5 areas and the United States wants them to be repatriated many western countries despite their normally very strident stance on human rights are not eager to do that the preferred option is simply to dump them in syria and i think thats partially because of the fear that their Legal Systems could train them to leave me in plea and that they could present a security challenge in the years to come dont you find that perhaps this is this is a bit ironic that this is what the syrian war has come to after years of lumber asking the Syrian Government for its choices western governments who now have more resources more advanced Legal Systems are not really eager to set an example and treat those combatants humanely and subject them to a fair trial well you have probably heard myself and i. C. R. C. Institutionally advocating for all the countries who have detainees or have families of detainees in the camps at the present moment been in in syria may. All the efforts to pay their people back this is because theyre not feeding your calls so thats well we have 74000 people in the whole 6 months ago we have 68000 at the present moment there are around 11000. 00 are foreign nationals most of whom are believed to be former isis fighters nobody wants to nobody is rushing to take them home nobody is rushing to take them home because exactly of what you mentioned our argument is more humanitarian when i look at the situation in the camps for families when i look at the detention situation we do advocate that those countries will have the economy possibility to do so and have probably despite all the security challenges still more leverage to do so help in voiding some of those camp or at least in easing the pressure i think we have still 30000 syrians we have still 30000 iraqi in the nationals in the camps of the 4 of the families and i think it is much more difficult to repatriate those people in the complex and the fragility of the syrian and iraqi context today and thats the reason why i have always advocated that European Countries and other son make an effort to east attention and tore allow a better that billet he also in terms of humanitarian assistance in the he asked specifically about the whole because the station there may become even more precarious with the recent announcement of the american pullout and the looming turkish a fanciful on the areas that are. Still controlled by some of the kurdish groups do you have any concerns about what may transpire in that part of Northern Syria in weeks and months to come well obviously we are concerned by how bad is this there by the new situation at the present moment we are the situation is much too fluid to even say whether yes or no we do have access in the in those areas which are now. Under control of the Turkish Armed forces but i feel. The next few days have 1st to give us a clear picture on what the humanitarian impact is and then also to materialize and to see what are do you have a news with which on which we could have access but this is certainly our determination to continue the work we have done in the past and we hope that all the parties involved will offer us excesses and as we know the situation is as complex as ever in the north east and north west of syria now i heard you say in one interview that what distinguishes the syrian war is the sheer scale of destruction which will make life difficult for people for years to come when the white house still it is hopefully sees what do you make them of this very open very deliberate sabotaging of the iraq instruction operated by western governments and the tying of. International record structure funds just specific political outcomes i think its fair well you know the debate on the reconstruction which is has been forth in the open and which is basically a big debate which is not that the core of i. C. R. C. Is preoccupation that we are engaged in your many tyrian their efforts at the present moment and 1st things 1st i think looking at the dimensions of people displaced within syria and in the neighboring countries what needs to be done 1st is really to bring back basic services to syrian blood. Is to syrians as we interpret those basic services to people is very much still part of a basic humanitarian agenda its a 100000000000 taishan of basic services afterwards its a political decision on where mario actually recognize that their ability to bring those Services Back to pass on the availability of funds and in one of his recent interviews James Jaffrey the u. S. State Department Special representative to syria openly bragged about quote having blocked all reconstruction assistance from anywhere including the un d. P. World bank any place anywhere inside assads part of syria is that now the continuation of war by other Means Development funds and reconstruction funds have been political for your Care International for Even International funds your words come un d p operates on the political conditionalities you have to make the difference i think the concept of International Aid efforts is to distinguish between your many tyrian and very happily taishan efforts which are part of unconditional funds which are available in syria to which. Countries in europe and the United States and elsewhere contribute it is kind of an artificial. The bait that is taking place internationally because i think there is a concept to be to have more read happy taishan and more humanitarian funds for syria at the present moment when you look at the reality of syrians that its not big reconstruction that will happen to model what they need is schools still function is hospitals to go back to function is water tap still have again clean water and this is very much into reality of what we would call your money and be happy. And for these efforts i feel there are International Funds available but i agree with you for hours it is of utmost importance that our donors and International Donors are flexible enough to address immediate needs of syrians so that they can go back to their homes they can restart a normal life wherever it is possible in syria mr maher its always a pleasure talking to you thank you very much for my sick time price a lot i encourage our we are sick of this conversation going on our social media pages and help the syrian gal same place same time on worlds apart. Our own. Backyard. The. Simplest so. Very well might continue watching us in such. The United States and iran stepped back from the brink after tit for tat airstrikes in the region as President Donald Trump limits his response to fresh sanctions we look at whether the disasters of the 2003 iraq war are going hot heads in washington d. C. But thats not stopping t. V. 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