Hello and welcome to cross talk were all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle the nato military alliance is a relic from the cold war back then it was relevant in even necessary today it is an alliance in search of a mission that search has almost completely entailed eastern expansion towards russia but a lingering question remains is the average american and western european interested in a war over the sovereignty of dystonia and montenegro. Talking the Atlantic Alliance im joined by my guest look we have a in brussels hes an independent journalist in paris we have emmanuelle gave she is a french lawyer and in oxford we cross to mark owen he is the director of. Crisis Research Institute or across the uk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate it lets go to our guest in paris emmanuelle you have president mccrone just recently said that nato is brain dead how do you reflect upon that because a nato summit is coming up next week and its been shortened to 2 days because a lot of people are worried that. Donald trump will start some kind of Dumpster Fire as he tends to do when it comes to nato so what how is the Nato Alliance stand right now because you have Jeremy Corbyn going into election mode doubting the alliance the necessity here so i mean is mccrone right is nato brain dead go ahead. Well to be honest i am afraid that this time i find myself on the same page as mr my core which is something its something unusual for me and stopped me right time twice a day its but what we have to look at is that mr michael is saying it is a brand this is true but why because what he wants in bottom line is to make an alliance with germany and to sell our french army to the german that has been agenda since the beginning their big idea is to think europe and to kind of congregate everyone in this type of imperial europe they have as an idea a kind of napoleon type of an. And this is a very big challenge for us french because that would mean obviously losing our army losing our sovereignty so he is using this nato this nato thing which is right to have he has a hidden agenda if i could say which is to bind our army with the german army and this is something us the french have to look after because losing our army means losing our sovereignty means losing our identity so i think were probably going to come back in the 2nd part on what is the real combat today its not communism any more well know what the civilization issue is and obviously nato is not the one up for it so thats my point of view on that i would say with a lot of market in oxford but i would make the argument that all 27 from United States being the 28 member of nato their sovereignty is compromised as well and if you look at Public Opinion polls its been pretty. Trending. More and more people in western europe in the United States have doubts about you know having a collective Security Treaty Organization for a countries that are so far in. And that what you always france in the u. K. In the United States want to get into a military conflict over you know a country like. A stony and i mean is that something people are interested in to poll say people arent go ahead mark or i think this is always the problem with a Large Alliance that you find that the fringe areas the border areas are remote from centers of Population Centers of contribution by the british the french and so on so its true not just for Eastern Europe but also for the south if we think about france italy and spain in nato the the immediate Security Threat comes from islam missed terrorist groups operating in north africa and perhaps potentially threatening them a long way away weve heard mention of the procurement complex we have to remember that moscow is much further from the western border of russia in 812. 00 than it is today and one person macros controversial ideas from the point of view of the standard nato for is of course hes talking about reassessing the relations with russia because he doesnt feel as president of france that russia poses a threat to firms ok well lets go to lou came in in brussels i mean you know you im sure youve all been following this ridiculous circus called the impeachment process in the United States and you know i watched some of the hearings i didnt know that ukraine was a National Security interest of the United States and its news to me and oh my goodness its not part of nato there are no obligations to protect ukraines sovereignty but you wouldnt know that from the Mainstream Media go ahead look. Ok well the collapse of ukraine its of course started it all of course and of the sanctions that were imposed both both ways made it worse and gave nato. A reason to have aggressive language to with russia i think what happens now in the wake up call given by michael is for once excellent in the sense that by accepting to discuss with russia to discuss a memorandum on intermediate missiles so nuclear science. Will probably gain points in europe everywhere and he will probably come to a result because this is early 001 proposal of common European Defense failed like most of his proposals actually over the last few years they failed miserably and so this one marks exceed one he said that nato was brain dead he had no no substance in the speech really about this but president putin gave him substance that by proposing to discuss by by hand by giving a hand to nato nato had said no were not interested we can believe in it you can believe in it why dont you discuss it 1st so thats probably what michael is saying this week to worm to the nato general secretary generals stoltenberg whos in paris for that precisely so nato would probably change this this course its speech about. The russia and about the threats that russia could represent ok many many you know thats an interesting point but i mean without you know the russian bogeyman then theres even more doubts about what nato is purposes because the in my mind nato is primary mission is to exist ok thats what they want they have by 1000 bureaucrats working for nato in brussels. So existence is the mission ok but thats a Dangerous Mission because of what something that mark said earlier is that we have a Large Alliance like this with divergent views and interests and actually been going to happen in and then there are some people that want that to happen here go ahead many well and parents yes i think thats a very good question obviously its like taxes once they are voted its very rare that you come back on it so nato has its own existence its a kind of artifact in itself it stays because it is and this is always a problem we have when we create a monster you where you have walking dead frankenstein and this is what we have today but i think President Trump addressed this question 2 days ago and said well i think if we had to reassign maybe a mission to nato it would be today to deal with the enemies or of our civilization and who are the enemies nowadays its not communism anymore its something far more real and it is something that is that isnt really a war per se were not going to build trenches were not going to silo my cells we have we have a civilization war so is nato adapted to that type of war is the question and the 2nd we we question we have us french as you probably have seen in the recent news we lost 13 men in mali yeah 3 days ago in an operation that promptly was. Bumping into each other the sunda what we dont know so do we have the means of saying no to nato also if we dont put more money into our defense french im saying because every year the Defense Budget is going down and so you know theres a saying in no way i think its an done mark if you dont have an army you have the army of the country next door you know well we dont have an army anymore in france so whos the country next door. You know you know market the. Trump is already been mentioned here and again you know im agreeing with mccrone and trump on the same program i think everybody is on this one which is a landmark in itself on this program but you know hes complained about the lack of defense spending by european allies and i mean some people can say take the counterintuitive way of looking at him saying you know make it so exorbitant that they say they dont want to pay for it ok and that will give a reason for trump to say ok if i will go home if you dont want to pay for your own security if youre so afraid of russia why dont you pay for it i mean thats a very good argument ok and of course the europeans are not going to go along with that but i hope to get back to that dr go ahead mark in oxford. Here but i also we have to remember that the europeans are primary focused on their immediate vicinity even if they dispute which is the direction of threat or concern but the americans are global one of the things i think we shouldnt perhaps obsess too much about is trump personally because i think quite often we overlook the American Security establishment shows trumps dissatisfaction with the europeans probably because it wants to spend more money in asia its primary concern is the growth of chinese power and whole issues to in east asia so they want the europeans to provide more selfsufficiency so that america will still be the lead in nato but it will be having to develop came a recent mara think thats a very thats a very good point here and i think that that would erode if i was a european i would be very irritated by it so you want us to pay more money but youre still in charge how does that work ok i can see the in the idea about that keep going mark. But i think this is where we see tensions both between washington and its allies in europe but also within europe because we can see that the if you like the 3 big players in your britain from germany are all moving in slightly Different Directions mrs merkel after all was the 1st to criticize trump when he became president and say that perhaps germany in the europeans would have to do more for their defense and then the germans suddenly thought we have to pay for it. We dont particularly want to and we as a culture germany has been transformed the british are moving closer to the United States leaving European Union and so from speak comes the central player but as weve heard from a menu of the problem is that france wants to play a role that it cant really afford to pay for so actually all of this discussion reveals really how fragile the nato situation is and at the same time its sort of bureaucracy continues to plow forwards ignoring the fact that Public Opinion domestic politics in the Member States is beginning to drift more and more away from it. Ok im going to jump in here were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on the Atlantic Alliance with our. Is youll be via reflection of reality. In the world transformed. What will make you feel safe from. Tyson nation full community. Are you going the right way or are you being led so. Direct. What is true what is faith. In a world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or a maid in the shallows. Medical use downs to leaks last leave. When you. Present that it could look at the distance was more than a book called a but. Chose to its course still its about seeing mean theres. Just too little. Welcome back across top where all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle to remind you were discussing the Atlantic Alliance. Ok lets go back to luke in brussels i want to reflect upon something that emanuel was talking about these outer Area Operations under the. The banner of the flag of nato here it seems to me that thats also. Europe is being used as like an Aircraft Carrier as it were a base for american objectives going into africa i mean you know if you look back you know the chinese for whatever you think of them they are building a huge amount of in infrastructure in africa the United States is putting in more and more military bases ok and again this is this kind of. Effect the nato say in search of a mission you know what lets go to outer area right now lets go to afghanistan and see how that worked out ok i mean nato is constantly looking for something to do to justify itself and at the same time it will not answer overtures for im russia and i. Give you my opinion even if they did now i wouldnt trust them ok. Then with the eastern expansion all the way to russias border and now this nonsense going on in ukraine this is not a partner you can trust because their motives are very very unclear go ahead look. Well totally agree with you in the sense that. Europe doesnt pay for its defense so donald trump is right about that and has all the priorities than europe understandable to the the warsaw pact to be it is this appeared in the ninetys i mean why still keep nato so of course hold the military in the National Armies composing nato in europe there are salivating at the idea of the Shopping List that theyre going to give to work in germany for example to a k k 2 on the minister of defense new minister of defense germany is accepted again in poland and presence of the of my can pay off for example that is accepted again to pay 2 percent and it will be in a few years that they have reached out level so there will be a huge improvement of European Defense potentially wherever it is as you say africa is very important for the moment i mean the french are fighting nearly alone there in mali for the moment with some help but the trickle from the u. K. From belgium from all the armies so the hope is that if europe wants to improve its defense it will not be by looking at russia as an enemy and the letter sent by president putin could well change the face of the world order in the coming years because nato now under pressure by my craw and its good of him to do that will have to think again about its purpose and about what it does its much more important to look at the southern frontier of europe and the problems that are created by immigration and by thinks of the kind and so the french need help in mali we dont have logistics enough in the european armies even the french or the british that fulfill the 2 percent request that by by the americans so we need to make a big improvement and then only can we speak about European Defense so michael had a point this is not even. So none of your own friends i contacted to any peace today and they said that they are of course curious that book will happen but that they agree with the president just like ok lets go back to paris to many well i mean the poles have talked about creating. Trump the poles i lived there for many years even under communism theyre one of the most proamerican countries in europe but you know showing theyre being proamerican actually has a price tag to it and its something that i would have liked and that we had to say i mean building a European Defense against what ok what do you need all these planes and tanks for is it to defend the boundaries in the sovereignty of these countries are they or is it just to make them spend money so these Arms Companies get all of these contracts i mean it seems to me that again theyre. Creating monsters to slay that dont exist in their real monsters out there that youre dismissing like the Southern Tier of nato with immigration in the mediterranean you have islamic charism it seems to me nato is a blunt object and it just expensive go ahead emmanuel. I think you are right on this point. The fish and machine they are creating their own needs and bottom line is when you speak to persons in the army they are saying that their most of the time their planes are in really bad condition when you are in mali for example that the sand was a big problem i was talking to a european m. P. 2 weeks before the event in mali and he said to me we are going to have big problems there because our men are just trying to stay alive they knew that and 2 weeks after we see that so i found there is a deckard to me between what nato asks for and what we really have to work with what the layman what down to earth men have to do when they are on missions. They have to work with the equipment they have i dont know where all the money spent on nato goes but i know its not on our guys because they have to do with very little of it and. You know its the saying they are tigers led by donkeys really if you think about your question i think that i think we did i think will change the title of the program just to that i think that there mark if you if again Public Opinion polls that the majority of germans would like to see american troops go home ok i mean thats and thats not reported widely in the Mainstream Media of course i read antiwar dot com and they made a big deal about it but the average american has no idea that theyre not wanted in germany anymore theres a lot of troops in germany and thats as for operations the United States is running in the middle east ok again using europe as a conduit a menu well brings up a very very good point is that you know these militaries are not high tech theres not a lot of money put into it there its not high prestige as far as i understand but its for washington its an important public figure leaf you know that they have this big expensive shiny alliance but its more for ego than anything else not for a purpose ok look what happened in afghanistan all right and again you have all of these armies and we dont fight in the snow we dont fight in the rain we dont fight it dark i mean these are all fig leaves ok the United States wants to say this is the International Community well its not the International Community its washington and its allies and europe thats all it is its a huge fig leaf and its a fraud go ahead mark well certainly its obviously true for american Public Opinion it is good to be able to say look we have all these are we have the mother of all taking part but coming back to a point youre making earlier about poland and you know weve both been of a generation that remember these places in the cold war and yet i did europe the huge change it seems to me is that when you have a crisis for instance over the issue of the cruise missiles and. And in the 1980 s. When push came to shove the german public the British Public the French Public all voted for candidates who supported american policy today we find even amongst quite conservative people theres an alienation from trump and in a sense ironically the Mainstream Medias relentless parrot against trump has actually damaged the links between the americans and their european allies because most people so trumps the american president they dont think of him as a person and the other side of this course is that when one was 1st in soviet bloc in the 1000 seventys eightys you never came across and western opinion even members of the communist party were not anti western whereas now in particular we see in russia but in some other countries to the disillusionment with the west since the collapse of communism since the failures of the economic advice that went badly wrong means that we actually now have a popular base for anti western policies in some countries which didnt exist when you had a monopoly of communist propaganda but people didnt believe it now in some ways you have a kind of popular underpinning of this so we have 2 things we have. O. D. U. Dissolution with its links with the americans which is growing as you say particularly germany and also the rivalry with russia has a popular base city didnt really have in the time of creation of nixon or even reagan and gorbachev. Thats a very good point because i can tell you living ive been living in moscow for over 20 years and this is this illusion meant with the west is very very real because words and actions are very different they see the the hypocrisy all of the time and a lot of russians that i that i know that have known for a very long time dont understand why they have to be deemed as an enemy when they repeatedly reach out to try to have a european house again i go back to we can go back to got a bunch of president putin when he came to power in 2000 said the same thing when president made their voice president he said the same thing but the answer is always. No or you can join the club but you have to sit at the childrens table thats the deal go ahead luke while i agree with you fully we can all nato is outdated and we dont need tanks because were not going to fight tank battles like the battle in the past the. In the in the plains of poland to this is chris so the European Defense must adapt to the threats which comes from the south as i said from africa france cannot be a law and we should help more there are other issues with iran with pakistan and that have the bomb bore or could have it soon so i understand what europeans need their defense organized better its probably not for the nato i agree in the sense that america wants to go they dont want to be the umbrella protecting europe anymore the cold war is finished and so they have other issues in the far east so they want to get the military back in and free for other missions so europe must think about its own defense so i see it in 2 steps 1st nato must refocus and thanks to Michael Moore it seems it is possible all thanks to putin in a sense but one that as we focused will be on Different Missions to the fowls and it put it to the south it wont be nato anymore it could be a European Defense force ok and as it should be emmanuelle before we were almost out of time should turkey stay in the need to allow an alliance i mean they always talk about nato values turkey in line with that real quick one minute of the thing is if were going to make a if if we have if we have decided that nato is outdated and we want something more of a European Defense we dont want turkey its about 130. 00 in our in i mean i dont personally so thats that well i want a i mean theres a lot you know thats very short but you know that thats what i think its really important to mention that in this kind of conversation because we talk about values having shared values here. And weve seen since the the attempted coup in 2016 with all of these purges of the military and then you have going on turkey going into syria as a nato member again thats a trip wire that we all have to be careful of why would we want to fight a war against syria because of turkey its food for thought there thats all the time we have many thanks to my guests in brussels paris and oxford and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r. T. C. Next time remember. The buzz but if she won you probably couldnt i do the dishes at the baltimore theres no g. s newbie to see me you. Know muffin when you guys e. T. S. In the news i mean that without infringing balls. A lot of people see flowing as if i had to cut the most hard most cold. Doesnt need a misdemeanor as if i had. The. Cab at 5 am dazedly. People who support you. Would include in. This idea as you point out the anecdotally cheney fired all the cia agents in the field because they were too sympathetic to the locals and he felt that was a liability in the major media spheres of washington d. C. They dont want those reporters those stars to rub elbows in the great unwashed of the fly. I overstates because they may become sympathetic to the working class they may become sympathetic to the disenfranchised. Thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the countrys military and the decision a little sheltered lives every song came to a complete. The day that i was right. You know told to shut up kill me and i see how it destroyed my life and he screamed at me and he made me come in the gram my arm and he write me with this bird thinking if you take into account that women dont report because of the extreme retaliation its probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military rape is a very very traumatizing tat happen but ive never seen trauma like ive seen women who are veterans who suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished and the offender and almost 10 year career which i was very invested in and i give a sex offender who was not even put to justice or put on the registry this is simply an hour in violence male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there to prey upon whether thats a man or women. Who leave here in moscow in the headlines for you 1st saw the United States assassinated irans top military commander in an Early Morning in a strike in iraq provoking threats of retaliation from to run militias reaction is still coming in will bring up speed but a busy news day this is a. Live pictures coming in from paris next Something Else happening in the last hour or so police in the french couple of shot dead a knife wielding man enough to stab one person to death or wounded 2 other
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.