And its harder and its drawing but no legislation in our palm thats going to change that we need you know when the peoples republic of china decide to change in india the zaza change and. Then i suppose we can have a some water a mitigant against that the Chinese Communist party claims to be engaging in the largest Renewable Program in World History but what you seem to be saying is its not just Climate Change its. Some of the responsibility has to be the Prime Minister Scott Morrison says well look at china can say that but they are going to put on a lot more call for power stations and stronger as in the coming years. Its kind of which way do you want to. Also we have to acknowledge that china doesnt have to sign up to any of the the you know the Emission Reduction process they might be signing up to the treaty but their actual active active action once started 2030 likewise with india and you know as i always say to people if you think we can change. His actions in regards Carbon Emissions then why stop there maybe you should make a move on getting them to mensa pave the way to people who are incarcerated in excess of a 1000000 a north west of china well of course china also denies that the existence of any reeducation camps of the sort you talked about in Mainstream Media but lets get to our Australian Citizen julian as zoology confinement in britain what do you understand australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison is doing for Julian Assange the worlds most famous publisher well i think is the issue here is weve got to take the julian a songe as the central figure out of the equation and lets just talk about sovereignty remember Julian Assange was in a stray incidents the novices in the United States he wasnt in the United States when they happened they didnt come from julia songe there were leaks from a person who had that thomas called Bradley Manning now called Chelsea Manning so what exactly are you going to extradite julian a songe a citizen of the stroke here to the United States for for the actions of a another party Bradley Manning who gave him information which he then published surely that is no different to the newspapers you then publish what was on wiki leaks maybe they should all go to the United States to be tried under United States law i mean where does this one stop its patently absurd with you like him or not i think i particularly like you in a sanjeev i met him i dont think i dont warm to him as a character and i want to make this explicitly clear this is about the principle of law the principle of sovereignty not about my views good or otherwise about a person im jus innocent. Obviously the un special rapporteur actually spoke to us the other day telling us smears of his character a part of his georgia but after what you just said why do you think then that Prime Minister Scott Morrison is clear he says he is unable to intervene for what you say is a case of an australian facing the wrong jurisdiction well you know i try to. Pose the question ill do my part here ill say that. Even in the United States there are those that have clearly said that they cannot be an indictment against you in a songe is not says and of the United States certainly there are people from the United States who are not even though other countries may wish their presence to be indicted for events is theres no way in gods earth of the United States release them for that we have an issue here they talk about press freedom and that is the capacity of journalists to print what has been delivered to them by another source where they havent actually committed a crime breaking in accessing those that information but merely printed it and my problem is not just with people in sort of premier positions of politics in the stroller its also with the media i think really a little bit hypocritical on this that they railed against other journalists who they feel were if affected in offended by. Raids on them in regards information theyve got. On other issues person and to government policy and they say that this is unfair not rageous but when it came to the issues with mr songe they werent so vociferously in fact though in some instances they lost their tongue now woods suggest you have to be consistent. And consistency should not be on the character of mr assads because that becomes a persons personal views about another person to be on the principles of law and should be on the principles of sovereignty its. To be on the premise of facts but he wasnt in the United States so i mean how do you commit a crime in a country werent in. Here will the United Nations agrees with you so what are australian elites so frightened of as they said i mean this is Scott Morrison says he cant intervene but surely youre referring to Barrie Cassidy of the Australian Broadcasting corporation who runs a Program Inside is apparently. They were revealing u. S. War crimes in afghanistan based on wiki leaks revelations and they were raided by federal police in australia or you will i mean are those follow me on wiki leaks i read about it in the australian i brought it up with president barack obama actually when he was here said are you might have read about me on wiki leaks some rather surprised and your views about me i hope that we have an argument or debate around the principles of loran the principles of sovereignty not some sort of sort of he said she said character assessment about mr songe because that one just gets bogged down in personality bog and peoples fears and and loses sight of the facts now weve had something similar this before and that was the david hicks case is another person that i have are a god for but in that case once more i spoke up against then my Prime Minister which was john howard saying look corpus is a principle that exists beyond the seas of david hicks and we have to abide by habeas corpus now the good thing about that is she was there many senior q. C. s that actually came out after that and supported me and i said you know were so glad someone said that because that is exactly our views we have no we have no real law like or otherwise or affinity or. With the david hicks he image of david hicks was really incidence sent to us torture camp but guantanamo you campaigned for him do you think us are just lawyers should bear in mind given that the 26 hicks case. Against the Australian Government was also about extradition this going to the Australian Citizen rights well the thing that annoyed me thats a just one of one of his grades advocates was a former marine u. S. Marine went to listen to a u. S. Marine. Basically condemn us and say why dont you stick up for your own citizens its not a character of system as a belief in your own laws now. You know i had to agree with him and what i want in this instance is the same sort of. Clear thought that were not going to bat for mr assads going to bat for the principle of a strain sovereignty and the promise of a strand lords over straley ans. To be quite frank who were in australia ok but you were deputy Prime Minister are you seriously saying the north who is a at the cia n. S. A. Base at pine gap near other springs could commit a crime and would be tried in australia or not immediately bundled off to one of the United States is black sites or or even going to have them or would they have a different scenario there 1st of all there in australia and then be initially tried by strand lords and if there was an offense against the strand laws then i suppose. That you know that what course of action happens after that im not familiar with all the can or espionage or laws in the strobe it if that was an offense against a strand law for which one of the actions is so prescribed by that law was that you could be extradited to the United States and thats completely different issue but in this instance i dont think society even broken australian war there was no law to break he he didnt he didnt go in and break into a computer Bradley Manning deed he was merely the receiver of information from Bradley Manning so we can at least reveal the gulf with bloom was a victory overthrown by the usa for speaking out about buying gap saying it might be close if you threw the cia out do you think given that was by the governor general of australia. Might have to explain what the governor general is this quote morris is a bit frightened of intervening on his because david hurley you know governor general zack Scott Morrison well look i dont think thats not a look on trying to be a straight shooter and im telling you the way i see these signs so im going to be a straight shooter on this other hence absolute rubbish and you know that the cia i changed is trying government is trying papal change is trying government because everybody misses the 2nd part of that story yes. Governor general her at that stage. Basically sacked or put aside. Gough whitlam the promise to go off with them because the palm it was becoming an operable and things were and i bill to get through it now the then they had an election and the astronomy and people decided who the government would be the final arbiter of that was these trained people play thought that you know mr whitman was the right person i would have elected him back in but i didnt and just finally about election interference and xander down of the 4 were foreign minister a controversial figure being attacked by one of the old drums full of Foreign Policy advisers george problems in the United States he is warning the british people of a corbin government in the United Kingdom the interference from a former Australian Foreign minister. You know if you want to listen closely to Alexander Downer and i bet youve had a straw poll of 100 people in the streets of piccadilly ill be very surprised if more than 5 of them knew who Alexander Downer was i dont say that is interference for what everybody has to thank you youre welcome thank you very much after the break with Mainstream Media coverage of politics ahead of thursdays u. K. General election down for bias could know him chomsky the author of manufacturing consent about power and propaganda actually be wrong not about propaganda but about linguistics we talked to professor marc methot about the cradle of humanity all this is. Well coming up about 2 and going underground. Globalization the dollars a share you know thats happening in the world us time drifting apart a lot of different ways we look into it because theres an Economic Force spined it as always. Welcome back whatever the result of thursdays u. K. General election one of the key themes of the Campaign Leading up to it has been the propensity of particular politicians to lie to the public but where does this human characteristic to manipulate come from and how did it arguably become the most important evolutionary trait of all time one that guaranteed human supremacy over the other apes joining me now is professor mark madison whose new book the cradle of humanity have the changing landscape of africa made us so smart is out now mark welcome back to going on the ground tell me about the cradle of humanity you what what 3 and a half 1000000000 years in this book well i to start watching the beginning of the universe and what we really want the bike shops are you know but really on focusing on about the last 5000000 years where the real key steps for Human Evolution are things that make us who we are now before we get into the skull im going to ask you with Climate Change obviously being the most pressing issue homan ns now which is what you call them there in the book. Some people might be surprised to see that you talk about obviously the book is about Brain Development and evolution but you talk about the hugely important aspect and influence of plate tectonics from climate over. Geophysical changes on climate you dont think putin in trouble read the book and say drill away with the fossil fuels well i think the interesting thing about plate tectonics is it sets the scene if we look say at the difference between say amazonia and east africa at the moment amazonia is flat and has been flat for basically 2030 1000000 years whereas everythings changed in east africa and thats the driving force so without the uplift of the rift valley without the fragmentation of the vegetation those primates that living there wouldnt have a volt and we wouldnt exist so that fragmentation in those shoots mountain ranges are absolutely essential to produce the environment which then created the right conditions for us to get smarter but it is landscape and climate together continually into change affecting how our brains became brames what the key thing is if you think about living on africa you want fresh water you want to be able to have food etc and if those change or they drop off the menu you suddenly have to adapt and so thats what evolution is its a way of basically changing organisms to actually cope with the rapid changes around you and actually one of the key things was asking smarter well ill get to the brains of the 2nd but then what do you use this phrase climate rollercoasters what are climate rollercoasters and their influence on human habitation and all animal life so one of the interesting things is its a real mixture of all the influences we got the tectonics uplifting africa and fragmenting it we then have changes in the way the earth what goes around the sun which changes the rainfall patterns in east africa so we suddenly get wet periods and then dry periods which fill up these huge lakes in east africa and then they disappear and its that stress that rapid stress that roller coaster or of between joe. Narrations is a desert is of the lake thats whats actually driving the evolution but you maintain that all that powerful influence and determinacy is nothing as compared to the past 100 years or so of the Industrial Revolution in the last 100 years we have completely changed the face of the earth and its not just Climate Change if you look at all of our impact when the best stat i have is if we think about the weight of mammals on the land at the moment 30 percent are humans 67 percent is all our livestock only 3 percent of them arent life that David Attenborough and others keep running around trying to film so we completely change the surface of the earth in a 100 years and getting back to the skull yes. So crucial of all the influences of all these cross influences these girls are a testament to that so if we have a look at the skulls i mean the most important monocles is here this one is sort of lucy now lucy. Is probably came up to your mid sort of arm and was slightly smarter than the chimpanzee but was walking up like by peter and thats the 1st thing that happens thats fragmentation of east africa meant that food sources became further apart and therefore if you have to be a primate like a chimpanzee the easiest way to be fish until locomotion get up and walk so thats the 1st bit ok so we go from the this were seeing from australia to see. So we have here the start of d our own lineage which is homo and the interesting thing is as you notice there isnt really much difference in size the only reason this one is called home hubble is is because it was found with stone tools and that time in these of late 6 in the early seventys stone tools for supposed to be amazing these were the things that set us apart from other animals we now know that other animals used tools and we also know that stone tools have been found much much earlier now many years separate them. So this one occurs about 2 and a half 1000000 years ago in east africa this one occurs about 2 and a half 1000000 years and then we go on to my favorite not abstract thought yet when you go into a when not this is where the controversy comes in because this is homo erectus this is truly the step forwards they stand about same height as us their skull is about 80 percent bigger than sort of previously it has social groups it has changes in our movement so we know that they could throw spears if they wanted to they also have nearly a 100 adaptations for Long Distance running and this means that this is actually being kept in home a ses i smile there bravely because later in the book you talk about female undergraduates using a male partner based on spear throwing but i gather that the 2nd well actually its not specific its sense of humor because in the book im trying to illustrate that actually we move forward socially once we get a bigger brain most important thing isnt how fast are you how strong you are its basically how do you controlling that group how good it you are manipulating a whole country to vote for you i know thats a big political. But theres one there so this one is robust i this is. This actually occurs 1800000 years ago and it occurs at the same time as homo erectus and this is really interesting for us because theyre both at the same time and its looks like we have this species homo erectus trying to get smarter to think their way out of problems and then you have this one which has a much smaller brain so this is a shrinking brain so you have 2 different approaches about 1800000 years ago which is the environment changing so rapidly you either think your way out or you basically can eat anything. The 2 different approaches and our understanding is you just mentioned they were contemporaneous yes there has been interbreeding between coexistence species for hundreds of thousands of years oh absolutely of the one new thing we found with all the beautiful genetic data coming out of all the fossils particularly out of the anatole things are is that there is no true species here all of these were interbreeding they were competing with each other and therefore were a hodgepodge of all of that theres actually made it through to the modern century what is the nature of scholarly internal politics say between these is these 2 its these 2 other so the problem is that because of the way fines are found during time this species homo habilis was found by the brilliant louis leakey and he described it and found it was stone tools and therefore they honestly thought in the late sixtys early seventys they found the leap forward and therefore they described it and talked about it we now know with loss more data i mean we found 15 new species in the last 25 years so our knowledge has grown exponentially we now know that really its homo erectus is the start of homo and the problem is the species name is there and its just too much effort to change it these surprise surprise when you do your work how long it takes for the mutations to act i mean you say it took 100000 years from say 200000 years ago for homo sapiens to get abstract thought. They were important so the interesting thing about homo sapien is that we have here about 302200000 years ago in africa and then what happens is those waves of us coming out so theres a big wave about 100000 years ago that makes all the way over to china into southern russia and that species we found tall zick cetera but theres an interesting thing because there is a new species or actually its the same species but slightly altered that then comes out at 60000 years this one more than humans or homo sapien 2. 00 other than this one over much better maine where where where it came with the modern human 2. 00 spreads out an interesting lee takes over from the early homo sapien and it basically outcompetes possibly kills all the other competitors and thats the species that were all related to so its about 60 to 70000 years ago something changed cognitively in homo sapien in east africa that meant that we started to cumulate knowledge quicker and quicker and quicker and thats were as species does too were not talking the language yet because you you do criticize the interim view of linguistics arguably or because you dont believe it was a single event or chomsky suddenly thinks that homo sapien appeared and went i can think i can speak no again if you look at say chimpanzees communicating they already have communication if you look at say homo erectus theyre working in large groups they were communicating im pretty sure that homo erectus was already using language though primitive language to organize remember this is a species that is going out hunting. Well maybe not generative grammar though they will get where they are going to turn is read on the show before we get them back going to say yes no specifics will get ahead of actors here im a glee all of this evolution its impact on brain size you talk about new theories about the fact the brames has the need for it was to do with sexual interaction sexual and social interaction and the choice of partners and also this opportunity of 150 people within a community the basically the brain is about community not isolation oh absolutely so what the ideas are about why we have such a large brain is not so we can do advanced mathematics is not me so we can understand language it is so we understand the so short situations where in it so we can basically protect ourselves in a social situation its so we can manipulate others and again they sexual bit comes in if you happen to be looking for the perfect partner you dont necessarily want the tallest the strongest the fastest you want the one whos basically most persuasive you want the one that basically looks after 150 people go why now i think youre really good at hunting you should go out hunting you should be collecting berries im going to stay here make sure what he does everything and im going to control the group this is why when you ask people what is a really important of kalak to mystic that they want in a male sense of humor and just for anyone who wonders why they are always communicating with 150 maximum whats behind the 150 on social media it works as well it does know i think and people think well ive now got a 1000 friends no you havent so the 150 is what our brains can actually deal with and 150 is people that we know lots of details about so you have some idea of their backgrounds the way theyre going to react in certain situations beyond that we can go up to about thought. Only 1000 people that we actually know their faces and put a name to thank you so we still have much wind in that 150 is repeated its Christmas Card lists it is church sizes its mediaval village is all about 156 is a number that keeps coming up and they are not they should also given that this program talks a lot about extreme violence between humans. In that you talk about these numbers of people within communities you call them ultra social were ultra social we are animals unlike any other and we are but we have disproportionately less violence as human beings than to any other as a living i think this is what many people not good believe well no what people dont understand is that man no male violence ok reactive violence which is you looked at me strange im going to hit you its so rare in Human Society ok so we live in london in a city of about 8000000 people ok and men are walking past each other all the time without trying to hit each other a male chimpanzee in a small social group cannot go a day without hitting somebody ok or getting annoyed ok a lot of animals are like that because all the testosterone we as males has so many subtle ways of sizing up opponents making sure that we have some status lots of smart ways of showing whos smarter whos got more money etc loss of little showy things which then deescalate so we were really really good avoiding one on one violence so if you and i are out we will Work Together as a Brilliant Team make an abscess of the taking down mammoths ok as regularly this isnt a well lets take a mammoth less do it once what we want them all out of as a mcmansion thank you thats over the chair well be back on wednesday still in the u. K. General election reporting restrictions and on the eve of the vote until then people talk about social media dont forget to subscribe to going underground to you tube. First ukraine leaders from Russia Ukraine germany and france meet in paris to tackle ukraines internal divisions are there reasons for optimism and impeachment are the democrats secretly scheming to have trump actually really. The world is driven by dreamers shaped by those great. Military says thinks. We dare to ask. When there is only mr johnson mom. And i just got out of prison for. 41 years. Im 72 years old now i gotta rest for tomorrow for some of the. Big fill in on life just everything was taken out of. My work in the hospital bed was from a. Mental snowman that looks a little bit like me. I would rather color about. Homicide want to come. Now. And work out how tough the units battle so you go. So they dont need to go to the corner. On the phone. Trying to get a. Snow do something right. Now breaking news story for years off the world stage the International Anti doping agency shuts the door on team russia over what it said was. The key doping. Russia though cries foul saying it provided all the answers necessary claims its been ignored for at least plan to take the decision to sports scores as an athletes punishment is harsh politicize. The leaders of russia and ukraine france and germany with the normandy for summit in full swing to agree a road map to peace in eastern ukraine
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