The day or thinks. We dare to ask. Hello and welcome to cross talk were all Things Considered im Peter Lavelle 70 years ago this week china started down the path of communist rule over the past few decades china has emerged or rather really emerged as a leading world power rivaling the us the communist party can rightfully claim a string of stunning successes but. And his remains whats next for chinas extraordinary revolution. Cross talking chinas revolution at 70 im joined by my guest fred tang in new york he is president of the american China Public Affairs institute in hong kong we have andrew he is an international and independent china strategist and in knoxville across the same issue she is c. E. O. Of china Rising Capital forecast a Research Technology company all right cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate sarah let me go to you 1st in knoxville the 7 do they honor verse 3 of the. Communist china the advent of establishment of the communist state of china is a remarkable event without the soviet union only lasted 69. 00 and now china is at 70 and theres so much to talk about there are so many successes and there are so many challenges if youre the average person in china if there is such a thing what are they thinking on this day go ahead sir. I think that people are generally interested in celebrating this day its certainly an exciting time its a major anniversary and i think people are generally happy with their living circumstances theyre wealthier than theyve ever been its definitely something that in 1949 people could not have imagined would be the case and i think generally theres a celebrate torrie feel like in the air ok for fred kind of the same question because what do they what is the communist chinese light leadership what are they most proud of 70 years on go ahead fred. Well i think that china in the last 70 years for 3 stages the 1st is the 1st 30 years is a lot of challenges and then we have a 10 year period and they try to open up to the west and theyve been firing their work so that really is the last 30 years that they have livy the 3600000000 people are the problem tedious theyre working on the science the technology the infrastructure every way education d for the people like sarah said. The the people are very very proud and this is the time for them to look back and see how far they have come charley just but also looking back make you realize where you are i think thats thats whats going on in china you know andrew but its only been in the last couple of years that china is seen as a threat a growing threat a challenge to the International Order and in any in western media is particularly very unkind to china remarkably so theres a lot of people to talk about china they dont know much about it i have a panel that know a lot of about it and have a much more nuanced view of china the world is the world celebrating all along with the chinese 70 years on go ahead andrew. Well youre going to trace back history a little right back to Tiananmen Square and of course the whole world and. All who rose up against a common is china which is all the terror in suppressing this people and so on so forth but ill read the bill and there came nixon and also Henry Kissinger and there came a period honeymoon period where 5 United States want the china on their side so as to thought otherwise all russia. And so that there came a honeymoon period in the side of china with a ship and then also for the little bit china was more into the night with theo the World Trade Organization ringback because it was felt other by brain china in philadelphia theo tonic could produce all the all the cheap products of production that we all souls the china and then all the. Of the cheap products the benefit the American Consumer goods and then also the whole china would be more d like the west you have to see more would become more liberal and then even more than credit. But end of the so many years this hope was was lost i mean that the the the this this up newitz of the fact that time is a lot like the United States by any means and not ringback only is is is d is a mockery they are saying that he shares the nike shoes anymore is lollop trying to eat americans lunch in 5 g. Knowledge and so on so forth and and so the fear that there is a rising power with a different regime with values at all d its with those in in in the west you know sort of the east into a rat race all the china threat and then this translates into d this he had was 6 the pushback against china across the aisle in. Well senator i mean it wasnt really naive because i thought it was naive is that well get them in the w t o and theyll become good jeffersonian democrats which is ridiculous here why should china change its culture for the dominant power the United States ok it worked within the its an unbelievable Success Stories on so many different fronts again there are a lot of challenges and a lot of challenges are facing them now because of their success i would say year but it was naive that they were going to become like the west why should chinese become westerners thats a question that is not often asked in washington go ahead sir. Well china is sort of the case that proves all of the other cases wrong that is that a commies that are rowing have to be democratic china went against the grain for that and i think that the west lost hope to some extent that china would change its authoritarian regime after tenements where happened in 1909 i think for the entry that westerners believe that china would open up its economy fast which it has in terms of trade but its been far less less quick in terms of financial liberalization and i think that you know thats something that a lot of westerners are disappointed and there is have seemed to come to terms with chinas status as a communist nation up until the recent administration trumpet ministration in the us. Some bad feelings also in europe due to trade differences but it wasnt until recently that the west started to call out china and view them as being somewhat in the wrong yeah i mean fred it was its interesting to me that its only been in the last year or so that if you look at the Mainstream Media the for a decade it decade and a half it was china china is rising china is developing its expanding. Look at the success of the chinese but it was only when the last year or now the communist regime of china is a threat to the United States i mean theyve actually kind of changed the rhetoric here because theyre looking for well of course china is a threat to the western order because it doesnt want to play by its rules i dont see why china should you need to negotiate you need to deal with each other in good faith thats how youre going to move forward here but its our way or the highway and that doesnt go down well the country that is successful is china fred. Well i think that thats true and however it didnt start really from those Trump Administration i think globally is a nationalism and this lot of dissatisfaction with their own government you know using china as a scapegoat its one way that this administration is doing i think if youre looking in terms of the were order or human the definition of democracy i think that all nations should have a role in terms of defining this right now the current way of even defining democracy is by a very few countries who were the victors of the 2nd world war but theyre not including china or russia into that discussion and that definition is set however that might not be. In the right for everybody a suitable for everybody you know when he was talking about in terms of the the other nations i do think that china is respected by a lot of countries except a few western nations i think thats very good sandra i mean if you make a comparison of the just in this century in the 21st century all of the money the western countries particularly the United States leading the way washing incenses all the trillions of dollars wasted on foreign morris but the chinese have spent all their money on infrastructure not only in their country but across the world its not exporting its model its economic model or political model its certainly not spreading democracy is it me the chinese might understand it i mean and i think thats a lot of the anx that people get from about the chinese because the chinese still and i says a criticism of my own still cannae say below the radar and there are you know theyre building factories here bridges theyre all kinds of things around the world and they just keep moving on and the west everyones well wakes up in the middle of night and says oh my goodness what are they doing theyre trying to conquer the world well theyre theyre expanding world trade bringing tens of millions hundreds of millions of people out of poverty i can tell you in the part of the world that i live and they youre asian landmass Chinese Development is welcomed ok it creates prosperity go ahead andy. Well 1st of all you can look at the experience during the cold war for example i think either way both china and russia and the us as all are in those days were trying to explore the common ideology around the world and the west saw ringback that as a con of. Communism its why the overtake and i think its a cause more of the cold war yeah the cold war yeah but then they know this is no longer out there are some of the damage in the sense that. Theres a whole new set of this track where why is it being superpower it was its so active by rising superpower or the claim it is allah and they and their special is such a superpower a rising superpower comes from a different ideological system and this one and the high ranking us a was a white house at weiss of a lady who said openly they said well this is coming from a foreign caucasian culture so its always a class of 0 as asians you know so and if you have that these 2 forces d tunnel well with this law it will happen before. Its going to sara last 20 seconds in this park go ahead sara real quick. Yeah i actually would contest the idea that chinas. Chinas idiology can just perpetuate itself and i think that the economy has run up against limitations in terms of like the governments intervention in the economy and so i think that china will come up to its own barriers in terms of its idiology politically that will prevent it from growing further economically ok its a very good point i will want to return to that were going to go to a short break and after that short break well continue our discussion on chinas revolution 70 years on state with r. T. In 2040 you know bloody revolution to correct the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it still oil here i mean i lived with video and put him in the new bill is that i knew pulling needed to the former ukrainian president recalls the events of 2014. Those who took part in this today over 5000000000 dollars to assist ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. You know world a big part of the new lot and conspiracy its time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that Mainstream Media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bats and shouting past each other its time for Critical Thinking its time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. Oh. Oh. Oh oh. Oh. Oh. 00000000. Oh. Youre misusing the. Welcome back to cross talk were all things are considered im Peter Lavelle for a month were discussing chinas revolution. Ok lets go back to sara in knoxville before we went to the break so you said some something really fascinating to me about what that what kind of barriers that china is going to face i guess in the next 70 years of its revolution expand on some of those points and some of those problems go ahead sir. Right so there are limitations to Market Forces in china and we see this in the stock market we see this all throughout the Financial Sector where there is sort of a ceiling on the level of profits that people can make simply because theres a lot of government involvement if anything goes bad the government gets involved if theres a bubble the government could intervene and in addition to that a lot of companies that are listed on the chinese stock market are affiliated with the Chinese Government and so theyre not growing as fast a lot of Academic Studies have shown that a lot of state owned beggs of state owned enterprises have fewer Market Forces than private enterprises chinas private sector is still relatively small and even though its continuing to grow so i think that in the next maybe even 10 years china is going to face of barriers to further growth simply because it needs more competition and it needs more Market Forces it needs to be able to generate innovation without fear of potential crackdown a reprisal on some of the riskier ideas and so it could be really problematic you know if its can do with that theme fred you know the the the communist party of china it i would argue would gleans a lot of its legitimacy because of so much success over the last few decades pulling so many people out of poverty i mean you know and is and andrew pointed out early in the program you know they just dont make a deed as shoes and t. Shirts anymore they make some really remarkable high tech things here what do you think the Chinese Government is going to do to facing that challenge because i think sarah related out really well go ahead friend i kind of disagree with sarah because i think if most of them were alive today he would not recognize that i was part of today neither would even though he was the one who open the reform policy he would have seen so far that the country have come so far with his policy. I dont think he was imagine the success is has achieved so in terms of the communist party or the Chinese Government does not change thats wrong if we look at every 10 years they have made dramatic changes and making those changes at the same time creating stability within the society and moving ahead so i will see that there will food to be opening up. Without creating chaos without creating a bubble in the in the stock market and with the i would actually disasters a financial disaster like this. Ok sarah jump in thats the heart of the program thats the point of the program go ahead yeah i would i would disagree with that i mean. The governments has limitations and in order to stay in power the Chinese Government has to has turned control over the economy and we see that despite market opening up the government has remained in control of state owned enterprises has really focused on them in the past few years in terms of our fore and its something that is innate we connected with a communist government i dont think that china will be able to get out of that and allow Market Forces to entirely prevail i think its going to remain a problem ok let me go to andrew i mean you know i dont think maybe all surprised all of you but i dont worship the markets ok because the markets do get skewed ok and i am really glad that there are controls there to a point ok to a point i think i would agree with sarah that sometimes government regulations and controls can make an economy brittle and not be able to expand in the way it should ok nonetheless andrew theres nothing that succeeds like success and so you know when i look at the last major trade agreement that the u. S. And the chinese were working on and then it suddenly collapsed because essentially United States wants to dictate the terms and conditions of reforms in some sectors of the chinese economy if were talking about china here not panama no offense to panama but i mean china is a power to. We reckon with why should the United States or any other power be dictating the internal structures of the Financial Sector. Other sectors of the economy what why should china be dictated to when you can say no go ahead andrew. Well i like to follow up on the reference the nothing succeeds like success because thats exactly what the comedy spot is trying to do is kids on reinvent reinventing itself so when they come in a spot in our days its not the same as the company body at the time of chairman mao in terms of the attitude towards life of the prize and the at the do it was the market and so on so paul and i i agree with the notion that saving enterprise is going to remain for a long long time this is part of the cult of this ideology out there faith that in in fact the state based on very Important Role in driving by the enterprise approach songful there is a we all the. The visible hand of the state is even in the well this is like the United States were thinking about the success of the invention of the internet for example with our state intervention in the in the military research i mean this may not have happened or at least what happens on voss and he will even look at now. A country so farms theyre almost there in the book state owned appliances you know some of the big biggest event banks up ill say so i think that they dont have to buy system on oakley come of this. But i think the challenges ahead i like to refer to a lot of big i mention the fact that chinas or suspected or the remarkable achievement of all this in fact that if you look at the period its not 70 years because china only open up in life in something online so yes in 40 years this Company Changed but then but then. All the time its respected sunnys law liked by a lot of countries Even Research in. Africa where chinas investments. You know the better this is the last time this makes close to. This. Is soft you know what the soul. Institutions kind of institutions and. Some sort of a check and balance of the sort of. Institutions the regulate. The market puts on hold and open up the market with all sides. And also being a visible head of the state so. This is. What it has to be the right mix ok im going to come halfway with you on that has to be done right and that is good and that is very very new once you know the 1st stages of china opening up and developing its economy thats like primitive accumulation that its not hard to do is long as youre given the conditions but when it becomes more and more intensive than that i do worry about government regulation let me let me go back to sarah and sarah during the last 40 years. That and need to just mention there china it really surged upward and there wasnt a whole lot of attention there wasnt this sense that it was a rival thats a relatively new idea right now how is that going to change the dynamic of how the communist party rules and how is it going to change that and make about how the economy grows because its an its an export oriented economy its the factory of the world its an amazing phenomenon but thats being tested right now through cities trap is already mentioned on this program and its it is its invoked a lot recently for good reason because the u. S. Is watching go ahead sir. Yeah i think that china has been increasingly defensive particularly with the trial of the administration because its you know the Trump Administration is saying look at made in china 2025 you know you guys are having like a government funded move towards High Technology that could undermine our own interest and so china is being increasingly defensive and really trying not to call out other players on the world stage but just trying to justify its own existence i think its going to have to do more than that Going Forward in terms of economics i would say that china also finds itself in defensive mode particularly with us at this point. You know its because its some of its firms are high tech firms its something that the government is very much behind and these high tech firms are finding themselves in the crosshairs of u. S. Economic policy such as huawei and you know so this is going to be problematic for china its going to have to figure out how to negotiate this without looking like its going to dominate the world and i know that a lot of people are very nervous about one belts one road view it as a war. Or a military or cannot answer even though it doesnt necessarily have the capacity for that and let me answer your questions or since you brought it up to use your words does china want to read the world do you really believe that. No i dont care i dont think so either you know people of you china and west is increasingly viewing china such yeah but i mean let me go to fred but you know i mean you know andrew brought it up again and again he brought it up 1st before i did i when i look at how the western media treats china there is an implicit racism in there all of the time and its really extraordinary from these liberal but Media Outlets but they do sound racist because a non caucasian non western power is challenging the current paradigm and i dont see any reason why the chinese are going to look backwards because they have a whole lot to look forward to is the west tears itself up over ridiculous ideological things but i dont want to go into it because i get sick and tired of hearing about it but china has every reason to look forward last minute goes to fred yes i totally agree with you its a lot of racism going on not only against china but also against Chinese Americans in the United States people always think that well looking at these Chinese People how can they do so well they must be stealing this is not true early on you have talked about china being exploit country which is also changing right now china is g. D. P. 80 percent is still mesti strontium percent is export a United States account for 30 percent of the 20 percent so its a total of 6 percent of chinas total g. D. P. Of the related to goodness states theyre working with the rest of the world and theyre moving ahead i just want one more point about state owned enterprises state owned enterprises what we call the drug and industries every country need drug and industries for it to sustain itself you know i use the word for it dragon industry. When United States bricked up Big Companies like that they were breaking up its own infrastructure 2 days in the. Go. Fish bowl if we break up those industry we will have. And that dynamic changes in the United States ok for the but i think fred is ending the program with to share a will and i agree with him to a large degree many thanks to my guests in new York Hong Kong and in knoxville and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r. T. See you next time to remember crosstalk rules. Rather than to follow on that comes out of. The set of one of my one of them. A friday afternoon tea. Nasty hi i my. Months in front of the how long since gone. From 0 to. The lock of the. Fancy it is someone who did the board. Make this manufacture consent to stick to the public well. When the ruling classes protect themselves. With the financial merry go round lifts and be the one percent. With no middle of the room sick. I. Protest in hong kong turns ugly with. Police demonstrators throwing acid this is. Us president ial hopeful joe bidens t. V. News networks the stop giving it time to trumps lawyer accusing him of supporting lies about the full vice president. If leaders giuliani should be from the t. V. Giuliani should be able to speak in biden should be able to refute any any charges they try to shut out the other side
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