Transcripts For PRESSTV The 20240703

Introduce todays guest, he took the conversation cameras to check the publics response to the uk governments latest attempts at enacting legislation that seeks to halt future civil cases and inquests linked to killings during the conflict. Well, i think the legacy bill has two simple purposes, the British Government are seeking to indemnify the state forces and the proxies that operated in their behalf modern people in ireland, they want to put the lid. On their entire role uh in the conflict, and secondly, they want to ensure that in the future they can send british soldiers to Foreign Countries to murder civilians, knowing that they have impunity, the things an absolute disgrace. Well, this is all highlighted by the minister of defense, who is pushing this legislation through the British Parliament and westminster, and that is all there to aid and to exponerate british soldiers. In uniform who have broke the law shooting british citizens irrespective of they come from republican backgrounds, lawless background, catholic, protestant or whatever. I think its important to be very conscious of why it is that theyre looking of to push us through, um, i think whenever uh all the victims groups, all the Political Parties and all the human rights organizations are vehemently against this legislation, that we need to consider why theyre so eager to rush it through, i believe that theyre only doing this because this legislation. Serves one group and one group only and thats the British Government and british forces. Well, so its about votes for them in england, nothing to do with here. I believe the victims have rights, all victims have rights, but i believe that the British Government are looking for an amnesty for their own, are looking for an amnesty for their own forces, um, carried out the atrocities during the conflict. So i grew up in bolimorphi, i was very familiar with a bolimorphi campaign, the ballim masaker campaign and the waiter time for truth campaign. I was there on the day in corvus christy chaple when the judge made those announcements in relation to the balfe massacre, and for nearly 40 years that truth was suppressed and it was hugely important for those families, the way their community that they felt vindicated, and thats what has happened here, the British Government has saw the success of campaigns like that, the success of campaigns throughout the north and. That is the truth that theyre trying to suppress. As always, we are joined by our resident copresenter Michelle Gildernew. Michelle is the current mp for mana and south torong. She has served in the Northern Ireland assembly as a former minister for agriculture and Rural Development and of chairperson of the Health Committee amongst other things. Michelle has been a shinfian activist since her teams and has been elected almost continuously since 1998 and todays special guest is Deputy Director of Amnisty International and i granya tagart. Her work as an advocate for many victims affected by of the recent conflict has brought her to the halls of westminster and further field. Granya, welcome to the show. Thank you, good to be here. Granya, is it your understanding that the British Government is in breach of their International Obligations with these latest proposals . I mean, the uk state has a long, dark history in covering up its human rights abuses. The troubles bill is probably one of the most serious and severe attacks on rates that ive seen, certainly in the the many years that ive been working on human rights issues. It amounts to de facto amnesty, it is effectively the uk government legislating to let state forces off with murder and other very serious crimes, so the bill is about removing all paths to justice for all victims of the conflict here, and to do that a time when the existing paths, the existing mechanisms to get truth and justice to some measure of accountability to do so a time when they are working for victims, i think is particularly cruel, so these. Proposals, you know, they are rightly um not supported by victims, theyre not supported by anyone in the community here, and obviously we have seen serious and repeated concerns from the united nations, the council of Europe Commission on human rights. The council of Europe Committee of ministers, the us congress and and indeed elsewhere, and i think what that demonstrates is that there is very clear agreed to attack on rights that this bill represents, and its not only, we should not only be concerned about what that will mean for victims of the conflict here, all victims, but also we should be very concerned about the International Precedent that will be set by the uk government, effectively providing a blueprint for legislating delegate forces and other armed groups off with murder and torture. And other very serious crimes and were you surprised when the house of lords amended parts of this legislation . Yeah, i mean the the house of lords, the amendments that weve seen there, i think that reflected sort of broader public opinion, you know, there is no support for this immunity from prosecution, and the very low thrashhold around that immunity being given, so effectively you could have member the state forces, a former soldier who could provide information that is either false or already in the public domain, or is something that has already been given in a previous investigation which we know hasnt been human rights compliant and that will be enough to be granted that immunity from prosecution. I think you know for the families in the very little input that they have in that process. Again, that is very significant betrayal of their rights. Its effectively the uk government shielding perpetrators at the expense of victims. Grannya, um, the arker stated that while the bell is not yet been enacted, and certainly if it is enacted, if it does become law, we will then at that point. Give consideration to whether an understate case is appropriate, so we certainly dont rule that out. In your opinion, is given consideration enough . Should he now state clearly that the Irish Government will take a case to the European Courts . Yeah, its not enough to say that its under consideration. Mean, we have been calling for commitment to the industry case to be made. You know, this bill is the uk government, its a unilateral action by the government where they have departed from previous agreements and previous greed way forwards to deal with deal with the past. Here, i mean, effectively, the the Irish Government, they have a critical rule to play here, they should be very clearly signaling to the uk government that if you pass this law, that we will take this case, it should be very unequivocal commitment being made to that, victims here need to see that, when the uk government is betray and trying to overlook and ignore and disregard their rights, its very important that the Irish Government say that we will challenge this bill in the European Court of human rights, but its not just about you, the the imperative for that is not just the. Legal points you know the the the breaches of the European Convention on human rights that we know that this bill represents, its more than that, this is about the Irish Government signaling that there is a consequence to these actions, that there is a consequence to between victims in this way, and for victims many of them have been fighting for decades through the course to get some measure of truth and accountability, the Irish Government taken this action, we would hope with short circuit some of what seems to be the inevitable legal challenges that victims would be burdened with they will have to to to take themselves, i mean for victim to challenge this bill, and we as amnesty will be supporting victims in doing that, it takes years to exhaust the domestic courts to then go under the European Court of human rights, if this bill becomes law, the Irish Government can petition and go directly to the European Court of human rights, but they have to do that within a window of four months, so that should help give some support to victims and not leave them alone is burden of seemingly inevitable legal challenge with this bill, and given. That theres consensus consensus across all Political Parties in ireland and the uk bar the tories and multiple human rights groups, high straightend to the liberal party, have they made this part of the manifesto . I mean, what weve seen so far is a commitment from the uk liberal party to repeal this legislation, thats obviously a welcome commitment, we need to see that translate into a very firm and unequivocal manifesto commitment, and you you mentioned earlier the the american government, how how strong have the americans been in all this . I mean the us congress and actually the us senate weve seen again um very strong um opposition to the bill um and i think thats been very welcome you know right across the community here we have been calling for the Us Administration to publicly put on record their opposition to this bill. We know that its been raised privately so we know that the u. S. Administration given bidens commitment to the Peace Process here and to the good friday agreement. We know that the administration has been raising the bill in private meetings with various uk. But we dont think thats enough in the way that we saw around the protocol bill for example where the uas administration said if you legislate in that way it will directly impact um any trade links we should be seeing something the equivalent for this bill given the very serious way it infringes the good friday agreement which as we know is the bedrock of our Peace Process here and i think the way the uk are pursuing this dangerous legislative agenda, its taking not only racking ball to the good friday agreement but its also. Undermining what is very delicate piece, i dont think we should be taken for granted for one minute, um, i suppose the peace progress, sorry, the Peace Process and how far weve come, and is there a reason why america hasnt been as strong as it previously was in regards to the trade deals etc . I mean i suppose you know there is obviously the issue of you know us forces and their actions obviously in other conflicts we dont know exactly what it is coming into play here some might you know what is that the case but i think you know we know the administration has been raising it so we know that successive uh british prime ministers have been coming um under pressure from the us with this bill but it regrettably hasnt had the effect of the uk government giving pause to this. Legislative process and i suppose reenterring into good faith negotiations with the Irish Government and with Political Parties here and indeed the wider community. You know the storm house agreement was the first time we had that degree of crosscommunity broadbased consensus that obviously took many years to get to that point. So to recklessly reneg on that and to then put place what is it affect of amnesty and entirely you know internationally unprecedented amnesty you know we havent saw anything like this elsewhere so to do it in that way i think um we said dont know what the consequences of this are going to be other than the very immediate closing down those paths to justice for victims, but most of the parties here backing the storm house agreement, its not good enough just to go back to that point, we have to do some of the damage that this legacy process has gone through, dont we . Yeah, its exactly that, so its sort of its storm and house agreement plus, so if we think of storm and house agreement as the foundation for what well need um in a sort of post you know post this bill obviously because so were going to need to look at the ways we can undo the damage and the provisions of the bill havent taken effect and how we effectively give back to victims what this bill is trying to remove . Youre still tuned into the conversation, your weekly alternative probe of political events and Current Affairs through anannes. Im joined by my cohost Michelle Gildernew alongside our special guest, Deputy Director of amnesty international, ani, granya tager. So grannya, um, this might be very difficult question. To answer, but how do you see fair approach that sees accommodation for both traditions . Is that even possible . It is possible, we had that agreement, you know, it was the storm and house agreement, that was our road map for how we deal with the legacy the conflict here, it was our agreed way forward. I think you know when were addressing the legacy of the past, theres always going to obviously be inherent difficulties with doing that, i think you know were never going to were unlikely to see agreement around obviously the history of the conflict and you know um some of those points. What we can do is deliver a roots for victims to get some measure of truth and accountability, and it was that stormment house agreement, its you know what you dont do is effectively what the uk government are doing here, which is removing access to the courts, removing um that due process of law, mean that is very significant interference in the Justice System here, its holy undermining of the rule of law, and i think you know for for many victims, its why we have seen this near united. You know front a front right across the community where everyone has been in agreement that this is just not the way forward and not what they want and you know with storm and house agreement you know there was a draft build there that was consulted on and the overwhelming response showed that right across the community here there is no support for an amnesty so that is effectively what the uk government are trying to introduce against the will of people here yeah and the victims and survivors dont theres not a one size fits all approach to this is there the the but truth. Is important to to the vast majority of people affected . I think the majority of victims you know want to get to the truth of what happened to their loved ones, they want in some cases for the Public Record to be corrected around the events obviously that lead their their love their loved ones losing their lives, so it is about um for lot about getting that truth, but some also obviously want you know justice in the form of obviously criminal justice processes as well, and someone sort of the combination of that truth and accountability and obviously at various. What that accountability can look like, for example through civil claims, etc. , but you know, i think what victims do have in common is they do need acknowledgement of what happened to their loved ones, there needs to be some way of accounting for the past, acknowledging that loss, correcting the record where it needs to be corrected, and then moving forward in what is a continuation of our Peace Process, you know, were not there yet, we might have a degree of relative peace, but it is very much still a process, it is ongoing as opposed to. 25 years after the a good friday agreement, its job done, its always the work on progress, yeah, now one aspect of this legislation would be to halt all civil cases and inquests and as we know families have been quite successful uh in this last number years as a method of attailing some samplence justice, could you talk about that . Yeah, mean i think you know inquest in particular are sort of uh will both inquests and civil claims have been delivering for victims, certainly civil cases when we think of you know operations and truth recovery you know in particular, but inquests i think um have been really important to victims, if we consider cases like um the ballon murphy massacre, you know the official state record had been that these were iran men and women obviously the courts found that these were 11 innocent civilians and corrected then what had been a narrative that had dominated at the time and obviously in the year since so for the balla murphy families you know that was vindication of what had been a near 50 year abadle for that truth and there is a question of are some of these mechanisms are inquests etc working a bit too well you know for particularly for victims and thats why were seeing the uk government swoop in in the way that they are to close down those existing mechanisms which as we know is a peacemaale approach but has been delivering so i think balla murphy is probably one of the the stand out examples and weve seen a number of families who are going through the inquest process at the minute like the spring hill massacker families as well and they are you know again they are families who lost ones who just want the truth of what happened and theyre engaged that inquest process at the minute what the uk government have done has come in top of that process and theyve changed the bill very recently again mean that inqu will be brought in end by the 1st of may 2024 unless theyre at the point of getting a verdict. Now lot of those inquests and certainly springill you know they take at least two years obviously get to that point. So what the uk government have done here is effectively incentivize not to cooperate with that inquest process to effectively run down the clock to the 1st of may next year um and its supposed then to effectively not cooperate with things like disclosure, things that are essential for these families in getting. Weve been in court, weve seen how good they are running the clock down at redacting papers and just blocking any attempt to get to the truth. Effectively the British Government dont want an international spotlight on their actions in the conflict in ireland. You know, is that Fair Assessment . I mean, i dont think the uk government have made any secret of the fact that this bill is about protecting state forces, there has been a narrative created around you vexatious claims and a witchunt etc. Of vetterrances as we hear, but the reality is theres been. Prosecution in 25 years, these are not vexatious claims, these are merely families who have been failed for decades, by not having mechanisms in place to deliver their the truth and justice that theyre entitled to, this is the uk government effectively saying, were shutting that down, and in fact what were going to replace it with is so inferior that theyll never get the truth of really what happened, so its why in addition to closing down those judicial processes, theres the oral history, you no part of this, it is that rewriting of history. A way that is convenient um and in a way that the uk government want to manage, we see i suppose the uk governments and the uk states influence and role in over the bill and over the bodies that it sets up, you know as well, theres a very significant influence or its about managing this process and youve mentioned just for our viewers cuuse lot of them will be international of yours, could you tell us exactly what had happened during the polimorphic massager . So these were 11 civilians who were shot um in various locations through the balemurfie area which is a part of west belfast that is predominantly nationalist Republican Community and and those at that time um the uk government and uk state forces and covering up what happened they effectively said that these were gun men and women and that the use of force was justified we saw in the media at the time theres various media clippings that portray this in a very sympathetic light for those um state forces, but what we then in successive years, what we saw then was those families come together and actually start to piece together what happened you know around those events, what happened um uh around the death and the loss their loved ones, and they effectively then fought a very Long Campaign to get to the courts, to get through the those Court Processes and to have truth delivered, so its really testament i think to those families determination that that come out, but its also i think a real and indictment the uk government and the way theyve handled the legacy of the conflict here and obviously uh dealing with the past, because at every point families have faced obstruction, they face you no information that has been denied, so it has really been through them never giving up and continuing to push, which is why theyve got that measure of truth that theyve got, and its exhausting, i mean this has been drawn out for so many years and people were labeled, as you said as as gun men and women when the. Were innocent people going about their business, um, for lot of the families, theyve already lost mothers and fathers, people have died without getting the truth and without getting the justice that they deserve, havent they . I mean, if we think of the case of you yellow hair, you know, she was 12 years old when a soldier shot her in the back, now she wasnt a god man her woman, she was a child walking up the street to church, and her dad was a car taker in local school and he heard the gunfaire and ran out to help whoever it was, whoever head he needed to come to not really that he was going to be watching his daughter effectively blague to death and for those who were um witnesses on the day there was for example woman alice who was nurse and she was trying to get to mella to actually give obviously treat her to try and apply some emergency for stator and help her whilst um before she was taken to the hospital and the abuse that they received that they have spoken to you know since you recalls that midella was effectively thrown indian a Army Helicopter like a piece of meat and then brought to the local hospital where she obviously she died so thats a 12yearold child now in that case the uks ministry of defense they apologized for her killing in 2011 but there was no action accountability that followed despite the soldier in that case being known. So suddenly we see this repeated uh with many cases right across the north, what happens if this legislation goes through, mean whats next for victims . Mean the uk government have very comfortable majority in the Uk Parliament to put this legislation through, and its very clear that thats what theyre intent on doing that they are ignoring the overwhelming opposition that this bill is fising and theyre going to push it through to law. What that means is victims are effectively being condemned. To further years of legal battles fighting through the courts obviously to have their rights vindicated, so that is effective what this bill is condemning them to, but i think its really important that victims understand that theyre not on their own, you know that theres organizations like amnesty and others that will stand with them in this fight and against obviously this bill, eventually to hope overturn it after the next general election, but meanwile certainly to to support their challenges uh through the courts, but it also means you know for some victims, you know we cant ignore the sad reality. Many victims are quite elderly now and this means that this is effectively the uk government um removing their prospect for justice forever unless they have loved ones and family members who are willing to sort of pick you know take up this button and continue the fight on behalf of the family they shouldnt have to be doing that we shouldnt be you know we shouldnt have a government that is effectively legislating to lead people off with murder but its unfortunately its the reality of where things are at the minute and for victims the only outcome is that theyll have to continue to fight on in the way that they have over successive decades . Granya, thanks for joining us. This week we take a look at the legacy of a man once voted the greatest ever britain in a bbc poll. Whether you resid in mumbai, granich, belfast or baghdad, youre sure to have a certain view on one of 20th centurys most controversal figures. When the history of arden is written and we look back on our greatest leaders, statesmen and women, names such as michael collins. James conley, winnifer corney, or mary mac alice should surely make the cut. What of our closest neighbor . In consistent british post, the name Winson Churchill has been a dominant feature in encapsulatating the Great British bulldog tradition. For a man who ordered black and tons into ireland in 1920 and a desperate attempt to defeat the irish rebellion. The platitudes on this side of the irish sea are few and far between, be it for a small number of secret of marriage of the finnigal tradition. Nigh, its understandable, considering churchills unasseilable leadership during the second world war, and galvanizing the British Public under the threat of nazi invasion, that some of his more ignoble exploits be overlooked. But do we really see the righteous skills of justice applied to the legacy of a man who once described the Indian Nation as beastly people with the beastly religion . These prejudices were further compounded by. Churchills action and prioritizing the stock paiding of food for britain, overfeeding indian subjects during the bengal famin of 1943. It seems that the lesson had not been learned of the actions of Queen Victoria and overseeing the great irish famin of the 1840s. During the great hunger, roughly 1 Million People died and over 1 million left the country. But whether we view church as a great savior from fascism or the devil of dresson . Are we able to put these races. Tropes in the context and explore his more affable attributes. Can we really cancell a man . Give one of the greatest political oratories of the 20th century with his, we shall fight them on the beaches homely . History is complex and is shaped by a rich tapestry of varying narratives. This music of stories allows us to evaluate and reevaluate the past. But first we must have an open and honest discussion, a wart in all approach. A binary approach. To churchills legacy within British Society only reinforces these historical troops, making them acceptable to some and contemporary teams. Why the irish or their indian counterparts need no convincing, it may be for the greater blide that the conversation begin by. And that does it for another week. Wed love for you to join the conversation by sharing the link to todays program and helping us to grow our audience across all social media platforms. Id like to thank our special guest granja teger. And our coresident host michelle gilderny. In the meantime, the conversation will be back next week with more investigations and analysis. Im sean murray, bye for day. As predicted riyad under pressure from washington may accept flimsy zionist american promises so that the wagon would set off towards what netanyahuld the new middle east that zionis like deceased shimon had always dreamed of there is no arab world nor a palestinian cause in the map that netanyahu heralds, rather there is a Regional Power sol the zionist israel supported by the United States of america that plunders from arabs oil money to establish its superiority. Alas everything is now out in the open. Normalizing relations between saudi arabia and the israeli entity will lead to the palestinians losing a friend who was only ashamed to deal with the zionists in public and now has the chance to do it openly. Sir. Caribia embraces zionists this week on the medies stream. At least five Israeli Soldiers are injured, three critically in a retaliatory attack by palestinians after the regime launched w raids in the occupied west bank. Iran strongly condemns britains meddlesome statement its latest satellite launch calling it a sign of londons anger un scientific progress, and afghan girls find an alternative way to continue their education as the taliban band female students from attending schools