Transcripts For MSNBC All In With Chris Hayes 20241004

Republican candidate for president tried to overthrow the last election. Rachel maddow and Lawrence Odonnell join me live tonight then did he lose the 2020 election . Tim, i am focused on the future. That is a damning nonanswer. Senator Chris Murphy on the plan to subvert the selection. Plus, Original War as israel invades lebanon and my interview on the book. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york. I am chris hayes. 34 days out from the Election Voting has started in a number of states. The judge in Donald Trumps January 6 Special Counsel Case has unsealed a new Court Filing just this afternoon. In the filing, special Counsel Jack Smith outlines the details about why Donald Trump should be federally prosecuted for his attempted coup, so we have a special to show tonight. Im going to be joined in just a moment by Rachel Maddow and Lawrence Odonnell. The filing is hundred and 65 pages long. As prosecutors put it, when trump lost the 2020 president Ial El resorted to track crimes to try to stay in office. The defendant launched a series of increasingly desperate plans to overturn legitimate Election Results in seven states. It also explains why Donald Trump was not acting in an official capacity as president when he scheme to steal the 2020 election. That distinction obviously important in light of the ruling by the Supreme Court which basically said the president of the United States is above the law. He or she can act with impunity like a dictator working as long as whatever they do can be justified as an official act of the president. Is fight Jack Smith argues that trump was acting as a private citizen, a candidate for office when he was trying to overturn the election. The special counsels office writes, although trump was the incumbent president during the charged conspiracies, his skin was fundamentally a private one. Working with a team of private coconspirators, transacted as a candidate when he pursued multiple criminal means to disrupt through fraud and deceive a private function in which votes were counted, function in which the defendant, as president , had no official role. Smith also provides multiple anecdotes from Trumps Campaign in a Circle Outline what prosecutors say was this willful scheme to defraud the american people. In the immediate postelection period while trump claimed fraud without proof his electors sought to sow chaos instead of clarity. Someone identified as p5, Campaign Employment Agent and coconspirator the defendant tried to sow confusion for the ongoing Vote Count in michigan looked unfavorable to trump. A colleague told Person Five we think a batch of votes heavily in Bidens Favor is right. Person five responded, find a reason it isnt. Give me options to file litigation. The colleague suggested there was about to be addressed reminiscent of the Brooks Brothers Riot Filing to stop the Vote Count, Person Five responded make them riot and do it. Make them riot. Of course, eventually we did get a riot. It was not like the Brooks Brothers riot of 2000 where republican operatives posed as protesters to demonstrate outside the Miamidade County Election office and then try to force their way inside in an effort to stop the recount of the florida election ballot. This was far worse and more widespread. A fullfledged, deadly insurrection at our Nations Capital unlike anything we have ever seen really. The capital ransacked, Police Officers having their brains bashed in. It was the result of Donald Trump Scheme to overturn the election that they had lost without any legal or factual basis. When it became clear that Mike Pence is not going to go along with the coup, Donald Trump unleashed the riders on him. We just heard that Mike Pence is not going to reject any Fraudulent Elector votes. Thats right. You heard it here first. Mike pence has betrayed the United States of america. Pens was sent down into the basement of the capitol for his own safety while a violent mob urged on by Donald Trump village the capitals and erected a gallows outside the capital for pens to be hanged. In recounting of the many efforts to get pens to steal the election this new filing also provide some insight as to what was going through Toms Head when he learned his Running Mate was in danger. Upon receiving a Phone Call alerting him that pens have been taken to a secure Location Someone identified is person 15 rested any room to inform trump in hopes that trump would take action to ensure pensive safety. Instead, after person 15 delivered the news, trump looked at him and said only, so what. Join now by Rachel Maddow and Lawrence Odonnell. Its good to have you here. First, im just very curious to get your initial thoughts, having had a little bit of time to go through the filing. Rachel, i will start with you. It strikes me that there are two things here that are interesting. I dont know if the pricing is the right word but it seems essential and important. The first is why does this filing have to exist . Weve already got a superseding indictment. Well, this is to show the court let the Immunity Ruling from the Supreme Court did not think this case and that you know, you quoted some of the meat of that. There are a number of assertions at various levels of specificity in the filings that say listen, trump is not doing this because he was president of the United States. He was doing this as somebody who was running to try to win a next term of president of the United States. He was doing this privately. The Executive Branch has no Authority Or Function to choose the next president. So since trump was trying to affect the choice of the next president hes doing so is candidate and an interested party but not as president. Also as president quote, the defendant had no official responsibilities related to the State Administration of the election or the appointment of their electors. Right. The president has nothing to do with that so when he is pressuring State Officials, talking to State Officials about choosing their electors he is doing something for which there is no president ial official responsibility so he cannot be immune from prosecution on those things on the basis of the fact that he was president when he did them so that very clear, very like 10,000 layers of argument on that i feel like is a very strong assertion from Jack Smith, from the prosecutors in the January 6 case that the case is not sunk. The other thing that i think is important is that this happens right on the heels, within 24 hours of Jd Vance rolling out among the most shameless move talking revisionist history about what Donald Trump did in January 6 and what happened at The End of the 2020 election than we have ever seen. Usually, that kind of stuff is delivered to a maga audience. Last night it was delivered to more than 40 Million americans by a guy who is very smooth talking and portrayed it as if it is no big deal and maybe its only the democrats that think its a big deal. This shows that the revisionist history is absolute punk and when the court i think inevitably moves forward on the basis of this filing and says yes, trump is not a mean, he should be prosecuted, this proves that a criminal case against him is very strong and very detailed. It arrives right in time i think to cut off what i think was the biggest blast in the most effective attempt at revisionist history on January 6 that we have yet seen and it happened just last night. On the first of those two points, i recall as you were talking about this and as i was reading the filing today, there is a moment in those Immunity Arguments which were sort of a disaster in many cases and sort of shocking and appalling if i can editorialize but there is a place for Amy Coney Barrett intervenes essentially to do proactively what is done here where she asked trumps lawyer well, calling the electors to lobby them is that an official act . Is like no, probably not. She goes through a bunch of the things that were asserted in that initial did indictment To Say we dont think those are official acts, do we . Its interesting to see that come back around is essentially the Core Argument been made over the course of 165 pages although partly out of necessity because of what a ruling John Roberts came up with. Im going to go to the highest authority i can go to tonight at 10 00 on this very issue that rachel was describing, which was how the Supreme Court basically sent this back to Trial Court and back to Jack Smith To Say, to determine what, if anything, from the smith indictment can be prosecuted in this is smiths answer which is To Say well, everything. There is one meeting we cant include which involves the justice department. In that one meeting, robert specifically goes out of his way to dig in. Right, but what we do have in here, i remember the day the supreme Court Ruling came out my first reaction to it was that this was going to happen. I anticipated it happening in actual Fact Finding with witnesses where we would hear Mike Pence. That might be the next stage of this. It can go to that, but as of now it seems like Judge Chutkin wants to handle it on paper and you can see how powerful the paper is and you can see the power the federal prosecutor has and subpoena power that the congress does not because when you look at page 67, the source of the quotes in the second paragraph are Mike Pences quote, five pages of contemporaneous notes of a meeting with the president at the time, so there is a Vice President just writing it all down. Which you better do any time you talk to the guy. Jack smith has all of those notes and quotes from them to the extent that he wants to. The other thing you see here, 165 pages is not the book like version of this but it is the Screenplay Length and you can see the through line all the way to January 6, which i have To Say, before, all these pieces were fragments that were kind of floating in the same water. Now, he creates the perfect leadin to January 6 wearing Jack Smith says having tried everything, having tried absolutely everything, by the time Donald Trump stood up to make that speech to his crowd on January 6, he had only one hope left, and that was his crowd, to send his crowd up to the capital to stop the counting of the electoral college votes. Yes, that point about the drama in the document in the Narrative Arc of it, specifically, the pressure on pence, which comes through in the January 6 Committee Report a bit and is really a focus here that on January 5th the dependent said i think you have the power to decertify. When the pence was unmoved the defendant threatened to criticize them publicly. Its easy to lose track of what has been entered in the public record and what hasnt, but this timing of that tweet, and we played you i think that is nick fuentes, the notorious nazi who dined with the president , tweeting about pence not doing what he was called to do. At 2 40 p. M. Trump was alone in the Dining Room when he issued a Tweet Attacking Pence and feeling the ongoing right. Mike pence didnt have the courage to do what shouldve been done to protect our country and our constitution giving the state a chance to certify a set of facts. Then Jack Smith writes one minute later, at 2 25 p. M. , the Secret Service was forced to evacuate pence to a secure location. That does not quite say Cause Andeffect but it just lays the causeandeffect right there next to each other in adjacent sentences. There is so much detail that they are presenting about that tweet in the context of it, they go to great lengths and great detail to explain that trump was alone in the Dining Room off the Oval Office when he sent it. They go to great lengths To Say that yes, there was another staffer who was sort of cleared to tweet in trumps name, but he did not do that tweet. They go to great lengths to show that at the time that trump sent that tweet while he was alone and Nobody Else was there, it was definitely him who did it, he was both watching fox news, which had already reported at that point, and was continually reporting that the capital had been breached, that the rioters had made their way inside congress for Mike Pence was. He was also watching twitter where it was being reported in real time. I mean, they go through all of those details, like it was him and this is what he knew when he did it and then they establish you know, some of the other things that he tweeted around the election and around January 6, arguably the Supreme Courts rules around these things could be construed as official actions when he did send statements in a sort of milquetoast way that said people should go home and Peace And Love that was a kind of president ial thing to do. He was acting on the institutional interest of the u. S. Government. But what he said, Mike Pence didnt have the courage to do what needed to be done Theres Nothing President ial about it. Theres no way this could be construed as doing anything other than advancing his personal, private, criminal interest in that moment. They just cover every single angle of it in a way that just feels like a straitjacket. There is also something. You made this mentioned before, rachel, and we were sitting together both on the day of that Oral Argument decision. This effort, basically a largely successful effort in certain ways aided by the Supreme Court, to make all this just disappear down the memory hole, right . As we sit here 34 days from the election. We all know everyone in politics understands that hes going to try to do the same thing again. That is obviously a certainty, right . And so this part, which seemed particularly relevant today after your very funny line last night about Jd Vance being the first Vice President ial nominee not to know who won the previous selection, this. The defendant and Co Conspirators also demonstrated their deliberate disregard for the truth when they repeatedly changed the numbers in their baseless fraud allegations from daytoday. The conspirators started with the allegation that 36,000 noncitizens voted in arizona. Five days later it was beyond credulity that a few hundred thousand didnt vote. A few weeks later the bare minimum was 40 or 50,000 so the timing of this, less than 24 hours after we saw Jd Vance on the Debate Stage unable to answer the question of did Donald Trump lose the election, and Jd Vance having publicly already said he would not have done what Mike Pence did. He wouldve done exactly Donald Trump would only have to ask him once, in fact might not even have to act ask him. For this document to emerge today where the star of Todays Document is Mike Pence because he has not been in anything else weve been able to read, so this really is Mike Pences moment in the story today, and every single step of this story that Mike Pence is in, Mike Pence is doing and saying the right thing every time. He is saying and doing what he was elected to do, what his Oath Of Office told him to do, which is when Donald Trump says to him, you really should do this, every single time, every time he says now. Every single time. Against interest and against political pressure. Rachel. Yeah, i just wanted to jump in there to follow in the shadow of what lawrence just said there. You noted its kind of hard to keep track of what is in the public Record And Lawrence was saying the sort of feels like the Screenplay Version to help you connect different things. One of the things i never connected before, on page 63 of this document, we knew from pence is now more that when he was really making clear as of January 1st that he was not going to go along with this, we know from his memoir that trump threatened him and said quote, Hundreds Of Thousands of people are quote, going to hate your guts. We knew that he had done that. What i did not know before reading this today is that he is threatening them that Hundreds Of Thousands of people are going to effectively come after him for what he is doing here and then immediately after he says that to pence, immediately afterwards he treats tweets a reminder to all of his supporters to make sure youre going to be in washington, d. C. On January 6. I mean, when he makes that threat to Mike Pence hes already announced for everybody to come to January 6. Then he has a reminder in twitter telling people they need to show up so he can make good on the threat. It is just wielding the promise of an angry mob as a deliberate threat and as one that he is planning to make good on and i have never seen it laid out that way before even though i knew the individual pieces of it and it just sent a chill down my spine. Rachel, the dialogue that you pointed out there, there is a Key Line at The End which would play to a jury so perfectly when Donald Trump is saying to Mike Pence saying you really ought to do this, mikes pants saying hes not going to do this and then his telling pence people are going to be very disappointed in you his last line to Mike Pence is, you are too honest. That tells you what Donald Trump thinks the truth is. That Mike Pence is actually telling the truth. You are too honest, Mike Pence. Yes, you are too honest being an admission of guilt. Exactly so State Of Mind for Donald Trump exist throughout the document including in the present in those moments, you are too honest but they carry the state of Mind Proof years after the fact, right up to 2023, right until last year for their coding Donald Trump praising the people who attacked the capital, calling the martyrs, calling them heroes, calling them patriots. It specifies that he raises money for them, that he praises them at his campaign events, that he plays the song at the campaign events. That all goes into Donald Trumps mind about what he was actually doing and how willful it was. One of the things that shows up here, rachel, do what you just said, lawrence, about all the stuff he is done substantively about these folks who are his people from signing the backpack of the women who came to the event to the J6 Choir creepy song being played at the rally to the promises those of pardons, none of that is explicitly criminal Activity And Smith is not alleging it is but to show it is essentially a continuation of what was happening in the runup to the aftermath. Page 160 you heard today at 165 page document, theres a lot of stuff we still have not seen it all, appendices to this document which may yet be released but toward the very end of this 165 page document, page 162163, they explicitly say that his postpresident ial statements go to explain his intent. His endorsements of the violent actions of his supporters in an ongoing way in the promises of pardons and lie amazing them and celebrating them and justifying it. Those things may be distasteful but not criminal unless it is being used as part of a criminal case against you because it shows that you were encouraging in their actions, believed in their actions and were on their side and trying to use them as a lever in your personal crimes. It is not particularly useful or edifying for me To Say this but i will say it. It did make me enraged at the Supreme Court all over again. The degree to which again, the plain facts of this, everything that has been established, all the due diligence that has been done, all the things we know, Everything We Saw happen in real time, the impeachment, the January 6 committee, this it was all there and shouldve been essentially prosecuted like a normal crime, is not happening. This is what we have and im glad we have it but it is an outrage to me. Well, i would recommend saving some rage for their next decision on this very same because whatever Judge Chuck and decides, the Trump Site is going to appeal her decision on this. Its going to go to the Appeals Court. The Appeals Court is going to rule however they rule and its going to go to the Supreme Court so the Supreme Court is going to get another look at the way Jack Smith has presented this evidence. Importantly, when they do that, they will at least be unable to run away from the factual contentions as laid out by Jack Smith. One of the things that was most and raging about both the Oral Argument in the ruling by Chief Justice roberts in the Immunity Case was he kept saying whatever the facts are here, like we dont need to engage with what actually happened here. This is just highminded constitutional thinking that we are doing here. We dont need to get into the specifics of what actually happened. Well, yes, you do, because your ridiculous immunity really makes us have to parse every individual action to decide if its official or not official at all in this bizarre system that you made up but that means we need to go through the facts of every single one of these things, and heres the factual record and him saying so what, when he was confronted with the physical peril that he had put his Vice President in. Here is him saying the details dont matter when he is told by his own legal counsel but what he is proposing is illegal and will not stand up in court. The factual record here is for the public, but also to, i think, ultimately embarrassed those justices if they want to keep this charade going through another round of appeals. This is a final thought here. There is this kind of him wriggling out of things over and over again and weve seen it 1 Million times. He defamed e. Jean carroll in front of a jury of his peers, but its also a reminder that they have a very good case here. There is an actual federal case. The man has actually been indicted of multiple felonies with an incredibly damning factual record. If its not inconceivable, it will go to trial one day there will be some criminal accountability. Of Kamala Harris as president , this will go to trial next year so its going to have to roll through the appeals one more time. A lot of this is going to survive. It may be that the Supreme Court tries to pull out the Mike Pence stuff and say no, thats official conversation with her official governing partner. They might try to do that. There might be five of them who want to do that but theyre not going to be able to pull out him calling up the speaker of the house in arizona were calling at the Secretary Of State in georgia and say oh, thats an official act. There will be something that survives of this criminal indictment and he will face trial on this at some point. Rachel maddow who will be back monday with another must watch episode of the Rachel Maddow show and Lawrence Odonnell who will be back here at 10 00 p. M. And with the guest you may want to speak to, cassidy hutchinson, she will be on lawrences program. I want to turn now to Mary Mccord who serves as a federal prosecutor and the department of justice nearly 20 years, cohost of the prosecuting Donald Trump podcast and i think lawrences last words here are very useful segway for your reading of this document through the pretty complicated and contorted set of tests that Justice Roberts Set Up and that immunity decision. Yes. I think what we see in this document you know, we spent a lot of time with your previous guess talking about well, with Rachel And Lawrence talking about the facts that are in here, specifically with respect to Mike Pence and i would note that one charge that is not in this indictment but that is supported by those Faxes Solicitation of a crime of violence against his own Vice President , because with intent that a person commit a crime of violence and under circumstances, strongly corroborative of the intent, the inducing or soliciting or persuading others to commit a crime of violence is in fact itself a crime but hes not charged with that. Just want To Say that everything you all have been talking about would really lead to that crime but what we see here in the legal analysis that Jack Smith does where he applies the Supreme Courts Immunity Ruling to the facts, they really go Chapter And Verse through not only what the majority laid out when they talked about with respect to Mike Pence, those discussions, we are going to call those official. The question is, government, can you rebut the presumption of immunity by showing that prosecution related to that pressure on Mike Pence would pose no dangers of interfering with the functions of the Executive Branch, the authority and functions of the Executive Branch on what Jack Smith is saying, that because the Executive Branch and the president has no role, and this is by our constitutional system, and choosing the next president , and because Mike Pence in his role as president of the senate, not in his role as Vice President , as nothing other than a ministerial role in opening the ballots in them being counted, that there is no way that you know, charging and convicting on those allegations could interfere with the functions and authority of the Executive Branch, and then Jack Smith goes on and does that with respect to all the other aspects of the scheme, arguing first, these things are not official acts. They are private. It was in his conduct as a candidate, Et Cetera and even if they were, he can rebut the presumption. Last point on that, Amy Coney Barrett in her concurrence, she led the way here. She said i think the Majority Shouldve answered some of these questions and she said in my opinion, Donald Trumps efforts to orchestrate the fraudulent Elector Scheme is purely private conduct because he has no role as president in the states choosing of their electors. She also said that in her view, the pressure on State Legislators for example in arizona, the speaker of the house, because there is no authority of the president to have anything to do with how states choose their electors, that there is no way that kind of prosecution would intrude on the functions of the Executive Branch so he is following her lead in the lead of the majority. Thats a great point about Amy Coney Barretts concurrence because she does hop off that opinion on a few points, and this is going to go back to the Supreme Court obviously and theyre going to have to roll on it one way. If you are already counting the four there, savvy thinking by Jack Smith knowing his going to have to count to five when this gets back up there and there are probably a few votes that im just going To Say not gettable. Mary mccord, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Coming up, after Donald Trump hangs his first Vice President out to dry, the man looking to fill those shoes shows hes down the code. Next. Shows hes down the code. Next. Pete g. Writes, my tween wants a new phone. How do i not break the bank . We gotcha, pete. Xfinity mobile was designed to save you money and gives you access to wifi speeds up to a gig. So you get high speeds for low prices. Better than getting low speeds for high prices. Right, bruce . Jealous . Yeah, look at that. Honestly. Someone get a helmet on this guy. Xfinity internet customers, ask how to get a free 5g Phone and a second unlimited line free for a year. Switch today there is a reason Donald Trumps first Vice President was not at the debate against walz last night. Trump dumped pants because he refused to go along with his coup on January 6, 2021 so trump fixed picked a replacement who said he would do what peds refused to do. Senator Jd Vance would not even admit that trump lost last time around. Did he lose the 2020 election . Tim, im focused on the future. Did Kamala Harris Censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation . That is a damning nonanswer. Chris murphy is a democrat of connecticut enjoins me know. Senator, you served with Jd Vance and i thought it was very interesting last night because at some level, to me, it showed the conundrum of the politics of this moment. There were parts of the debate that felt essentially normal, back and forth on housing policy, some stuff on childcare that felt like okay, these are different people, different philosophical positions then you get that point of the debate its like who won in your pulled back to what is happened to American Politics in this era. How did you see it . It felt like a normal debate because Tim Walz is a normal guy. Hes a congenial guy, he likes to get along with everybody. He did a great job in that debate last night but you know, America Saw The Real Tim Walz, who was your neighbor, but that was an exceptional moment. Im glad Tim Walz called him out on his truth. Jd vance is truth is that he is deeply nested inside a rightwing infrastructure that has an open disdain for democracy. Jd vance does not believe that democracy is relevant any longer, and he signed up for this mission with Donald Trump because he is very willing to go along with this ride from democracy to some form of quasi autocracy. He very deliberately during the trial process, to be Donald Trumps Vice President , went on tv and declared that if he had been in that chair that Mike Pence set in, he would not have certified those results leading to a constitutional crisis, and that is probably the reason that Donald Trump picked him. You saw at The End of that debate what the stakes are here. Donald trump and Jd Vance are auditioning to transition us to something that looks incredibly different from what america has lived under for the last 248 years and i was glad that Tim Walz did not let that moment passed by. In a debate like that it is like in a football game, where you can see the linebackers are quarterbacks on their heels when theyre leaning forward in their are different parts for you can watch a politician who is excited to talk about that topic and trying to just sort of get out of the discussion. I thought the exchange on guns is one of those where i thought Tim Walz was very good and Jd Vance was basically trying to get out of that passage, they want to play a part of what he said as a way of moving onto the next topic on Gun Violence in our country. I unfortunately think that we have to increase security in our schools. We have to make the doors locked better. We have to make the doors stronger. Weve got to make the window stronger and of course we have to increase School Resource officers because the idea that we can magically wave a wand and take guns out of the hands of bad guys it just does not fit with recent experience. Im curious what you thought about that exchange. Yeah, what a joke of an answer. Of course nobody is suggesting we should wave a magic wand, nor do we have the capability to do it. What we know is that states that are more serious about keeping guns out of the hands of Mad Men of much lower rates of Gun Violence. We have plenty of experience to know that societies, countries and states that are a little tougher on making sure that guns dont get into the hands of dangerous people, those states, those countries, those societies save lives. Listen, tell the kids and the parents in uvalde that what we need is more good guys with guns inside and outside of our schools. Im not saying there are not instances where armed Security Officers make a difference, but by and large what we know is that these young men armed with Militarystyle Assault weapons unfortunately can do enormous amounts of damage and short amounts of time. There are 300 armed men in the hallways and outside that school in uvalde, and they were powerless to stop that massacre. That is the rule, not the exception and Jd Vance knows that, which is why he was really eager to start talking about something else. Final question at The End here. The first question is about a preemptive attack by israel on irans nuclear facilities, first strike essentially on those nuclear facilities with conventional weapons. I thought those answers were a bit of a wash and a little bit of an odd question because it is about another countrys military decisionmaking. The President Today says he opposes such a strike. What is your position . It was a weird question in part because it is not a preemptive strike. Iran has launched a barrage of missiles at israel and israel, i think, has an obligation to respond. Thats not a preemptive strike. Thats a response. I thought the exchange was really maddening to watch because Jd Vance made this allegation that Donald Trump had restored deterrence in the Middle East when exactly the opposite is true. Iran and its proxies were not shooting at the United States when Donald Trump became president. It was only after Donald Trump withdrew the United States unilaterally from the nuclear agreement that iran started shooting at our troops in the region. What happened during Donald Trumps presidency is that our troops were put at risk. Iran went from a year away from nuclear weapons to two months away from a nuclear weapon and we lost our multinational coalition which included China And Russia aligned against iran. Donald trumps iran policy was a catastrophe and it was just maddening to hear Jd Vance last night try to spend an untrue story. Senator Chris Murphy of connecticut, thank you for your time tonight, sir. Still to come, as tensions escalate across the Middle East, what americans need to know, i had. Israel promised swift and efficient retaliation for its missile tech yesterday. Earlier Today President biden said he would not support israel attacking irans nuclear facilities, that Israels Response should be kept in proportion, though at this stage is hard to know what proportional even means. Yesterdays barrage of 200 missiles were aimed mostly at military targets according to iranian officials. One reportedly landed near Tel Aviv and another near a school. The totality of missiles were mostly shut down by israel with the help of u. S. Forces and other allies. So far there is one confirm death, a palestinian man in the West Bank. Ahead of the strikes until these seven people were killed in the stabbing and shooting attack for which hamas has claimed a sensibility. If all that wasnt enough to make one way things are spiraling out of Control Israel is continuing its airstrikes in Beirut Lebanon and its Ground Invasion of that country. Over 1000 people in lebanon has been killed in these attacks, as many as 1 Million have been displaced according to lebanese officials. Meanwhile, the war in gaza is still happening. Over 41,000 palestinians in a population of 2 million. Images out of gaza continue to be disturbing and horrific. Its hard not to hear about all of this and we wonder how do we avoid the worst outcome from all of this. Last week i got a chance to sit down with the writer his new book took him to the West Bank. That interview is next. That interview is next. But most often its the more obvious signs of damage like rotten soffit, fascia, or Water Pooling near their foundation. You can get ahead of costly damage by protecting your homes gutters today. Were in your neighborhood and ready to help. Schedule your free gutter inspection today, call 833 leaffilter, or visit leaffilter. Com switch to shopify and sell smarter at every stage of your business. Take full control of your brand with your own custom store. Scale faster with tools that let you manage every sale from every channel. And sell more with the best converting checkout on the planet. A lot more. Take your business to the next stage when you switch to shopify. A lot of people watching what happens in the Middle East are not themselves directly connected to it. For those of us in that position, myself included, it can be really difficult to figure out how to feel and how to think. The only thing for me anyway that provided some clarity as when i visited israel and the West Bank for myself nearly 15 years ago as a reporter. To see it in person is to understand viscerally that the Status Quo in the West Bank cannot hold. Deceit is to understand just what occupation requires. It was a clarifying experience. In his new book, the message, the Writer Tanehisi coates writes about his own experience across the region. He describes his time in israel and palestine were a fight to in his book between the world and me was unfolding. The message is a beautiful Love Letter to writing itself and the moral duty that comes with it. I think if you feel similarly cross pressured about conflict in the Middle East you might find it an enlightening read. The message is available now wherever you get your books. Last week before this latest round of escalation in violence in the Middle East i was able to sit down with my good friend, tanehisi coates, to discuss it. Were going to start with this from the book because it sets up our conversation and all the conversations people see you having over the next week. You said the late Jamaal Khashoggi was fond of the proverb, say a word then leave. I try to live by that because i met my worst there defending my books and trying to make more of them. This part of the gig, i think, is your least favorite. The thing i was actually thinking of was the sort of discourse that happens when writers write what they write and then somebody replies and then the writer decides that they need to clarify. Ive been used in that in the past. At the trap a little bit. Part of what makes it hard part of this book is much as anything i want ask you the other day i was raving about it said what was it about and was brought up a little short you and me both. Is much as anything its a Love Letter to Writing And Part of what comes through is that the work goes into the clarity of writing, is almost impossible to do in any other means. Yes, and that was like a really important thing for me. I think people forget that. In an area for obviously video is so important, i think people really forget that at the base of it, somebody has to write something down, you know, and what so much of this book comes out of, the thing i was trying to impress upon my students is even if all of you dont going to be essays, poets, fiction writers, the process of learning to express yourself with clarity is valuable. Its valuable No Matter what you go on to do. The things i try to do in the extreme to write a book like that is no different than the things i do when im trying to write a memo or an email. There are three essays in this book. The one that i think is probably going to get the most attention the car . Dakar exactly. Just start by talking about your way into that story, like what you write a little bit about that in the essay, a few lines in the case for reparations that you felt like maybe you were glib about the history that was much more complex. I think glib is the correct word. You know, when youre Writing Something radical, as it was at the time in 2014 for the case for reparations were always trying to grounded into some sort of real thinthat people can perceive it and in the case for the case for reparations it was reparations from the state of germany to actually it was journey to the state of israel, not necessarily directly to holocaust victims. I neglected to ask a very important question, which is, what is the nature of that state . Because for me, the case for reparations is not simply about compensation for something that has been done, but about making the world safe from a particular kind of oppression at large. As it turned out, as was very clearly revealed to me when i did my travels, to use the state of reparations to the state of israel actually undermined the very message of the thing i was trying to get across in the article. Why is that . Because israel is an Apartheid State and i dont mean that as a slur. I mean that in repeating the reports of amnesty international. I mean that in repeating the reports of the human rights campaign. I mean that in repeating the reports of the israeli human rights group. I mean that in reporting the fears of israels own prime ministers, and i mean that in terms of what i actually saw, which was a society in which half the people live and have the benefits of full citizenship and the other half live on various tears somewhere below that. This was immediately clear to me the first day i got there, and suddenly by the second day when i was walking through i literally saw streets were some people could walk down in certain people could not. Where i could walk down as long as i was clear that i was not muslim and other people could not. When it was made clear to me that i was with a group of people spending time with a group of people, who should they fall into any sort of trouble, would be treated by the military justice system, while all around them were israeli jewish citizens who were subject to the benefits of the civil system. You can imagine the difference in the degree of harshness and it went on. It was pretty clear across the board in terms of the laws and policies. Ive been on the same streets and have the same reaction which is this is obviously a moral abomination. Obviously. But i thought about your case for Reparations Essay because the gap for the case for reparations is to me, on irrefutable and rock solid moral footing. It is the case that american wealth was built from plunder, that there is something out. From that moral certainty to okay, what are we going to do about it, things do start to get more complex and from the moral certainty of standing on a Street In Habre and to this is not morally acceptable to have 15 Million people between you and the sea with full equality, that is more complex. And in many ways the next step is clear to me because the other thing i was confronted with was the extent to which palestinian voices have been completely pushed out of the frame so the first step is actually an easy one, to elevate the voices of people who are actually having the experience and ask them what should happen here, you know, and not one or two of them, but in some sort of mass way. In many ways, that essay is about my complex relationship with journalism, which i love, it is a process i love, which is one that i actually applied right there but i have to tell you this and i said this and will continue To Say it, that i would be very interested in how many major Media Organizations have a bureau in jerusalem where they have a palestinian Correspondent Or Bureau chief. I would love to see those numbers, you know. Obviously i think anybody should have the opportunity to work that kind of job, just like i think anybody should have the opportunity to cover race in america but if there were no black people doing it, or very few, we would have a problem with that. Tanehisi coates is the author of the message, which i recommend you read. It is out now. Get it wherever you get your books. Good to have you. That was just part of my very extensive interview with Ta Nehisi coates. You can watch the full interview on msnbcs youtube page. That does it for all in tonight. Alex wagner starts now. Good evening, alex. As you know, as we all are, such a huge fan of tanehisi coates but to have that book come out, you never know when a book is really going to come out, but to have it come out right now as we are collectively grappling with this moral and ethical repercussions of what is going on in the Middle East, it makes it even more essential reading. You are lucky to have him on your show. Have a great night. Thank you. Night. Thank you. Presidential debate, but already the Harriswalz Campaign has chosen what it believes was the most important moment of that debate. Its really rich for democratic leaders To Say that Donald Trump is a unique threat to democracy when he peacefully gave over power. He is still