tonight. so what do those voters want to hear? consistently those who want to like donald trump say they want him to be more controlled, more on message. while those who want to like joe biden say they want him to prove his age is not an issue. are either one of them going to deliver? and what exactly does delivering look like? what exactly is the metric for a good performance on age or on personal control? let's try to figure that out. joining us from atlanta, vaughn hilliard and staff writer for "the atlantic" and msnbc political contributor vonn leibovich. vaughn, donald trump is coming up with expectation. he's not controlled. he's not polite and he interrupts and over talks, but this is a situation that will cut him off. his mike will be cut. you can probably still hear him if he keeps talking and his microphone will not be on and are we going to see a different donald trump tonight? >> this is going to be his 17th debate, katy. as you said, this is not new for him, and of course, the last two times he debated were back in 2020 and against joe biden and those were two slightly different debates and the first one was very chaotic and he interjected more than a hundred different times if you were to go through and count, and the second debate after he was panned for coming off as overly aggressive and not giving joe biden any due time he came off a much more controlled, if you may, and a little bit more poised, and i think that's a question of exactly where does donald trump come in today? if you follow his social media post over the last several hours he sent quite a flurry of them in all caps saying joe biden is a threat for democracy calling on fox news to have the communications director for the biden campaign on and he doesn't feel he needs to prepare for his debate and a source familiar tells john allen saying that he'll have a refresher on his flight from mar-a-lago here from atlanta before the debate. if those other 16 debates that donald trump has been a part of are any indication, we should expect that someone should eagerly pounce, take personal shots and try to -- we have to see him shake his head when any other individual calls into question his integrity or his character and you could easily suggest that there has been a lot to contribute to that over the last four years since he last debated, of course, four criminal indictments and a defamation suit that helped him be found liable for sexual abuse and a $350 million fine including -- >> the bar has been set so, so low, saying that he'll be on drugs and juiced up with something which is ludicrous, but since the expectations are so low set there by them, what exactly does success for joe biden look tonight on the issue of age? >> i mean, it's hard to say. some some ways joe biden has outperformed expectations in some big moments whether it was the state of the union address a few months ago in other speeches and other debate performances in 2020 and so forth. so we've seen that he can rise to occasions like this, but what we've also seen is, i mean, with the state of the union, i mean, that really sort of quelled a lot of talk about his age for exactly two weeks and if you look at it, the age questions hit right back at him whether it was the wall street journal piece that came out last month and if you look at it the center he generally holds that his approvals are still in the high 30s and they haven't ticked up much. what's different is that, yes, as vaughn said, trump's been in a lot of debates and nothing like this, not only was the last one almost four years ago, but the last one, trump is used to a spectacle. he's used to a studio audience and used to an open mike at all times. no one knows how he's going to react to that and also add to that the fact that the two of them will be in the same room together for four years and they've been seemingly been obsessed with each other in some weird way in that our politics have been circling the orbit of these two personalities and look, they'll be in the center and what's that going to look like? they're both political people and they know how to connect and how to ignore and snub. it's weird. it's weird. >> we talk a lot about joe biden's age and let's also mention that donald trump is up there. i've been following him for so long, he doesn't sound like he used to. he doesn't have the same energy he used to have. he never made the most sense, but donald trump is a different person today. are the expectation too high for him, mark? >> yes and no. they're high in that he can basically operate in a kind of consequence-free environment with his supporters because they have proven time and time again that they will celebrate everything that they can sort of put under this umbrella or whatever donald trumpism is, so yeah, he can say all kinds of outlandish things that we would say that's really going to hurt him. you know, that formula doesn't really apply here, but look, the singular gaffe, i don't think is something that is going to trip up donald trump in the way that it could biden just because biden, by virtue of his own dignity has a higher bar for himself and has a higher bar for how a president should act and he actually subscribes to the same kind of codes of shame and trying to be accurate that most politicians in our lifetime have and donald trump operates on a different standard. >> it's important to note that joe biden sets the bar high for himself and he sets the bar high for the presidency and donald trump's bar is much, much lower and this is air force one landing in marrietta, georgia, arriving for tonight's debate. >> former chairman and co-host, michael steele, it's good to have you. it will be a long night. >> yeah. let's talk about the rules because there's a lot of discussion about the rules giving donald trump control that he does not have, making him look like he is not, giving him a sense of moderation that he doesn't have. he's not a moderate guy, he's not a controlled guy. he's not composed and he is chaotic and he will be forced in the box and with the cut mikes and the no audience. does that help donald trump, does it help joe biden or does it help donald trump hurt joe biden? who is this going to benefit? >> i find this particular debate to probably be one of the most important in the last -- well, 50 years. certainly, since kennedy and nixon because a lot of our presidential debates have become skeptical. they've not become matters of substance and matters of raw understanding of where each of these men, individuals will lead the country and i think this moment will afford the country that. i'm less concerned about whose bar is set where. i just want to see them talk to me as the current president and a once and presumably hopeful future president about what -- how they see the country right now. how do they assess the last five years going through what we've been through, economically, culturally, socially and certainly on issues like civil rights being pulled back and, of course, that little thing called an insurrection and the denial of, you know, election and the non-peaceful transfer of power. those things are going to be important. so i'm less interested in this -- in the horse race that a lot of folks want to set up. i love this debate because it's raw. there are no catcalls and stupid-sounding idiots in the hall, but rather an empty room with two moderates and two men who want to be the president. >> i wonder because of that, we had frank lutz who has said he's been following debates forever and doing the focus groups, the policy isn't what gets through and what gets through is the one-liner and the intricacies of the debate and because there's no audience and no clapping. y wonder, do you think that we'll get a debate on policy? are we actually going to have a debate tonight and not just two people appearing next to each other? >> we could. that's a good question. i mean, i don't know. this is what i love about this debate. there's so much about it we don't know because we've never been in this space before. we haven't been here in a long time, put it that way and what has made those other debates stand out is the one-liners and why did the one-liner work? because the audience whooped it up when they said it -- when it was said. it may have otherwise fallen flat with voters. in the 1960s the folks who heard kennedy and nixon thought that nixon won. the folks who saw kennedy and nixon thought that kennedy won. so everyone's going to bring their own impression, first impression of this debate to their decision about who the next president is going to be, and i think we should be excited about that and stop trying to pick the winner and the loser before they actually open their mouths and say something and let it happen organically. >> i sometimes -- to bring you behind the scenes get frustrated with the endless conversations leading up to an event and i find there are only so many ways you can talk about something. you really have to watch the debate and allow it to unfold and watch the event and allow it to unfold and we can pick it apart later. i am curious about tonight. i am also curious about the number of americans and the sheer number of americans who say they'll be watching and 70%. that's a lot of americans and a number of them, i think it's 16% of voters who say that their minds could change. do you think that many people -- >> i do, and because of the way this is coming about. i'm happy to hear of that 70% number, and i hope it's higher because you have two stark visions of what america is on that stage tonight. when one man says he wants to be a dictator and the other man is trying to prove he's not too old to do the job, and so that 16% number is big, and it can translate and cut against one of these two men in a way that we just didn't see a few months ago, and so i think this is -- this is what i love about this moment and i'm telling folks, grab your popcorn and sit back with your favorite adult beverage and open your minds and ears to what you hear because we haven't seen this kind of display of interest in wanting to be president. now she me. prove it to me. tell me what tomorrow looks like in your world view, and i think a lot of americans are curious about it. that 70% number is a big number when you think about registered voters out there or likely voters out there who will be making decisions and to know that they're interested in this -- in this way i think is a far cry from where we've been in the past. >> i think so, too. 83 million, i think, the number that tuned into hillary clinton debating donald trump. that was a really high number, and i think tonight could be even higher. we think about politics so much, but there was a lot of the country that doesn't focus so much on the day to day political happenings and they just have a feeling about how they think the country is going. joe biden has persistently had some pretty junkie approval rating numbers and democrats argue that listen, the approval rating may not actually matter because when they're confronted with the choice between joe biden and donald trump they are going to pick what they believe is the lesser of two evils and joe biden will be that person and then donald trump's chaos and the attempt to turn the election and the criminal conviction and all that stuff will just not be palatable. do you put stock in the approval numbers? >> i don't, actually because we have seen how joe biden, since he's been lech. his approval numbers have not stopped a demeanor democrats' accruing benefit from shg won the white house and he's been whiching away, although slim madgeority oft of the republicans in the house. i think this cycle is very different as was the last cycle in terms of how voters are coming into it. when you think back and look at how the economy was doing so much harder in '22. the big red wave was coming. joe biden was well under from where he is now and yet he still was able to short circuit that wave, if you will, and so i think that there is some value in understanding and condition contextualizing. it does not translate into i'm not voting for joe biden or i'm voting for donald trump. that's what, again, makes this such an interesting piece and the other thing you said, i think that's important about those voters who are coming to this who aren't, you know, junkies like we are, katy, where we sit here and we literally have our popcorn, right? and we really get juiced up about this stuff. you covering this the way you have over the course of your career and me being involved in it the way i have. so we see it at a certain level, but folks who are tuned in and haven't given a you know what about it and they're part of the 70% saying what has all of the fuss been about and who are the people now in this moment? >> it is interesting for both of them to lay out the future. >> president biden just arrived in marrietta, george a we saw him deplane air force one and now he's greeting local leaders and you can see him there hugging some folks. the opportunity they both have to lay out their vision about what the next four years will look like, and i know donald trump will come out with everything is terrible now and don't worry, i'll mack it better. i promise you, i can do it. job, i've thought about the threat that the team focuses on democrat see and what his next four years, what he thinks he can accomplish and that's one of the advantages that the president has is to not only talk about what brought us through, what idea is coming in the door on the heels of covid and the inability of my predecessor to manage it appropriately and the economy. now let me tell you how that translates going forward, and i think if there's anyone that will bring in the substance of policy, it will be biden because in one sense he has to. what trump will do is just nitpick at it and say how you know, how bad it is or how wrong he is, but he's not going to give you an alternative and he's not going to give you the nuance or anything close to a general purpose of his economic policy and explaining to us what 100% tariffs for anyone will do for our economy and it's still a sensitive area a it is. i think yau see very different approaches to on you, you, biden, has to push it up and out ask saying that won't work. that's bad. that didn't happen, but not really laying out what he would do differently and certainly telling us what it would mean and how it would impact us if he did. >> we'll try to talk about tariffs and talk about prices and he'll compare 20 to prices how and he'll completely avoid the handling of the pandemic and didn't go well for him and he didn't win the election. and the wars in the middle east with israel and the war in ukraine would not have started if he were president. he's said that before. i think that will be his answer to any foreign policy questions. michael steele, thank you so much. >> thank you, katy. >> press secretary and host of "inside with jen psaki," yay! you're in the building. >> thank you. thank you. >> most americans aren't watching cable news politics every day all of the time. >> pay attention to the election all of the time and they're just not in it yet and they're going off their gut at the moment with how they feel they are doing and a lot of americans say i don't feel i'm doing as well economically as i have in the past. >> the numbers tell a different story, but numbers aren't people and how does biden talk to people who don't feel good when the numbers look good. >> the key ting ing is i love when you say vibeses and if you're in the campaign the thing you probably worry about rid now is joe biden wanting a list of his accomplishments and to list that off and prove to people or to focus on listing the data of what his accomplishments has done. if he starts listing infrastructure projects it's not going well in the debate if you're sitting in the campaign. it's more about reminding people that he is the one fighting for them and donald trump is fighting for himself. you've seen that in ads. he did -- actually, if you look and i watched some of the past debates as well, if you look back at the debates even in the primaries occasionally joe biden will do this. he would say if you're sitting out there i'm a person who is fighting for you, and i'm a person who is going to work on economic things for you and i'll work on getting you a better job. that's what he needs to do is speak to the people at home. >> does he have to acknowledge that some people don't feel good. i understand you don't feel as good as you want to feel. i understand the economy doesn't look the way that you want it to look, but these numbers are here, and i believe that these numbers have set in. does he need to acknowledge. >> i don't think he thosz frame it that way or how he should talk about it. it's more about framing it as a contrast with the other guy and that's what the campaign is about. if you think back to 2012 and i was working for president obama when he ran for re-election and there are similarities that may work here. what president obama's entire message was about was about giving me four more years to fight for you. give me four more years to finish the job. that's what biden's message is and should be. the data tells you one thing and you may not be feeling another thing. it's conveying to people, i know out there that, you know, you may want a better job and a better life for your kids and i'm a person who will fight for that for you and it's drawing that contrast with trump. >> the idea that donald trump is going to have some imposed control. he's not going to be able to over talk and historically he's used to create a rowdy atmosphere. i'm sure you heard it, says though thee thinks -- >> that piece could and. >> you you can cut my mike right now and you can still hear me. >> that might be, but you won't hear it totally clearly in the audience. cnn is on television and they don't have any other reporters, i think, in the room so it won't really matter. >> what i'm saying if he keeps talking you'll still hear it despite the mike cut. >> you'll still hear, but the mike being cut is the nasty ringouts inclined in his soul, you won't hear. >> there have been folks on our network, and jen palmieri argued you should hear more of the nasty rants. >> i agree. the point is if you cut off his mike -- >> so you would have said no, don't do that. i would have said yeah because you want to know who trump is. and the moments that are memorable and the off-the-cuff moments. >> the shut up, man. >> the off-the-cuff moments. >> what is the moment that will mack you cheer and what is the moment that will make you want to put your face in your hands? >> i already mentioned a hands in the face moment is if joe biden starts listing infrastructure projects across the country i'll put my face in my hands. the moment that will make me cheer is if he pushes trump on abortion. ? it's not just about calling trump a criminal. i'm sure he will do that. it is factually true and this is not a normal debate for a range of reason, but he needs to pick a fight because there is something that can live the past tonight so the fight is it about abortion or do you want to extend tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires and will he extend a fight on immigration. i'miused hear donald trump's meb tour protect a portion in florida. he keeps seeing, and how is gotting to wiggle himself out that. >> there are a couple of rens that you can have an abortion ban and pushing him on state's laws and there are a huge number of states that basically have an abortion ban and joe biden can, too. >> jen psaki. ial most called you jen palmieri. thank you very much for joining us and rachel maddow and team lead special coverage and analysis of the first presidential debate hosted by cnn. jen will be there. watch tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc and at 9:00 p.m. eastern you can watch the debate right here and stay tuned for our analysis and our coverage after that all night long. coming up, what the biden campaign needs to do to hold on to black male voters. first another change to the supreme court schedule means their session will now continue into, surprise, surprise, july. what cases we're still waiting to hear. e're still waiting to hear. even a little blurry vision can distort things. and something serious may be behind those itchy eyes. up to 50% of people with graves' could develop a different condition called thyroid eye disease, which should be treated by a different doctor. see an expert. find a t-e-d eye specialist at isitted.com smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost 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time. five years? -five years. introducing the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. yesterday the supreme court mistakenly posted a document that looked a whole lot like an opinion on the idaho abortion case. well, today they made that document official, but while on the surface it might look like a win for abortion rights, it's more of a sidestep. the supreme court today left the idaho law in place. it allows emergency abortion care to stabilize extremely ill patients but just for now. lisa rubin and slate msnbc legal analyst dania lithwick. >> nbc news has done a word for word, page by page comparison and they say no, it's identical to the one we reviewed yesterday, katy. >> give me the headline for it. the idaho law stays in place and it is protected and is that something that women will be airlifted out of idaho because doctors are nervous? >> there's a fragile detente between the two sides about this and that in the meantime doctors won't know how to make decisions. idaho's doctors will still have to decide whether to provide emergency medical care in the midst of highly charged legal circumstance with no guarantee that the fragile detente. even though it looks like a win and abortion rights advocates are calling it a temporary reprieve, i would dial it back further. you can lose while we win because even though women have the right to have an abortion, if doctors are scared to provide them because they think they'll be prosecuted and later months or years when the statute is upheld, for example, they will not provide that care they will continue to move out of the state or make different decisions when a woman presents herself for emergency treatment. >> it's a lot to put that decision on the backs of the doctor that would affect their life and career. >> there's this quote from the decision and lisa pointed it out earlier, she called it the money quote. as such the united states has shown it will likely succeed on the merit given that and for the reasons discussed in more detail below, the court has determined it should preserve the status quo while the pares litigate this matter the parties will grant the united states motion during the dependency of the lawsuit and it will enforce idaho code 1622 to the extent that statute conflicts with emtala-mandated care. >> prevention means that if there's a state statute that conflicts and that is still the law and should have been the reason that the court should not have jumped into this case long before it had kind of been percolated correctly through the courts. the other thing i want to say to add to lisa's point about why this is not a win and not a push, katy is because there are women in states like mississippi and texas and other states where the law still is on the thumb of the state and not emtala. so there are jurisdictions that have passed laws like ide he's laws that are much, much more draconian than emtala would permit and so it's not just that women in idaho will not necessarily get good care because their positions are chilled, it's in several other states they're not going to get good care because emtala clearly doesn't trump state law. the idea that just because a handful of doctors and women in idaho will not be lifted out for care doesn't change the fact that across the country millions of other women live in states where nothing will change for them as a result of this decisions. >> another thing that came out today was regarding the epa and the ability of one state to pollute another state. what did the court decide on that, dalia? >> this is just another in the kind of anti-regulatory juggernaut that we are seeing in so many cases kind of under the radar. we see the hyperconservative and super majority of the court is making it harder and harder and harder for federal agencies that he is to do anything unless they have expressed congressional authorization to do it so they can come up right under the major questions doctrine or the non-delegations doctrine or whatever you want to hear and this particular case comes up because the court says the epa in trying to do this thing, the good neighbor approximately policy that will help with ozone emissions and keep us all having safer, cleaner air is that sorry, no, congress did it wrong and sorry, no, the epa cannot do what it wants to do. i put this case in that line of cases that are attacks on the cfpb, on the sec, attacks on the fda. so many of the cases this year underneath the merits is an attack on regulatory agencies and the ability of government to do its job. >> it's more responsibility and a lot more work on congress' back and congress has not shown the ability to function in a way to tackle some of these very big issues that do actually affect people and it affects people and affects your health negatively. there's also the decision with purdue pharma and the bankruptcy and the sacklers have been shielded from the bankruptcy and the sackler family itself cannot be shielded here. they were too intimately involved and the bankruptcy doesn't apply, the law doesn't apply in the way that it was applied in the settlement, but there was an interesting split in terms of who agreed with that and who did not agree with that. we are bedfellows and some people who were in the dissent i would call ultimate pragmatists. they want to see the purdue -- what remains of purdue and the family do right by the plaintiffs here who are largely victims' families joined by 50 states. they understood that the negotiated settlement was what everybody represented would be the best deal possible. >> $9 billion. >> correct. given that, there are some who might say, you know what? the plain text of the bankruptcy statute might not allow for the release of people who aren't parties to a bankruptcy, but in this case the settlement is the most just thing possible. on the other hand, you have victims' families who didn't agree with the states who felt -- >> the sacklers should be responsible for what happened because the sacklers pushed these opioids and knew they were doing it in a way that was not beneficial for people, but actually detrimental. >> and the other thing that i think the victims' families would say about the sacklers is they took $11 billion out of the company pre-bankruptcy and shielded it by not declaring bankruptcy themselves. so they got the benefit of the release without the burden of being fully accountable with their assets. >> i can understand that. dalia, one last question to you, we, of course, are awaiting on pretty big ones, including immunity. is immunity not going to come until july 3rd and walk out of the court and deal with the aftermath? >> i told my husband this morning that if i was in a relationship with limb that i'm in with the court which is to say waiting day after day to find out to hit refresh and find out what's going on i would get a restraining order. this is such a strange, strange term and yes, we are creeping up am monday and possibly tuesday and we will not know until the penultimate day and in addition to the big immunity case that every day that we don't have it is a day that cannot start in judge chutkan's court in d.c. and we are awaiting a bunch of cases including another deregulatory case -- >> chevron. >> which would be the case of the term were it not for the fact that there are 12 other pieces to the term. >> there's also an obstruction case that would take away a couple of the counts from donald trump if the court rules that the obstruction law that has been used to convict a lot of the january 6th rioters wasn't used correctly, and then there's the case that you were mentioning. we'll wait and see. we have another day tomorrow and at least monday, probably tuesday, maybe wednesday. who knows? dalia, lisa. thank you very much. coming up, will the so-called double haters be swayed by tonight's debate performances. what a folks group of those voters told us. first, what president biden will have to do to hold on to black voters and why some are now saying that they're going to give donald trump a second look. o the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema —fast. some taking rinvoq felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days— and some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks. many saw clear or almost-clear skin. plus, many had clearer skin and less itch, even at 3 years. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin, heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you 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see not so many people from these voters. one of them did say he is now open to voting for donald trump. listen. >> i am looking into it. i want to hear both sides of the story, and then i'll make my decision. i just want to do what's right. vote for the person that will help me and help the community and help black america be what it's supposed to be. >> there's at least five cameras or phones on that guy. you can tell there are more reporters. joining us democratic strategist and pollster and msnbc political analyst cornell belcher. >> thanks for having me on set. >> i can't doodle you as well. talk to me about black male voters. the biden team says these numbers you can't take them seriously? should they take them seriously? >> well, one thing is, look, i'm glad that the republicans are courting african-american votes. i think we are better off as a country when beth parties actually have something to say to the -- to all of the constituencies and let's level set for a moment. we're talking about polling and we're talking about a narrow cast of a narrow cast, right? so some of the polling of african-american men, you are talking about a narrow cast. that said, what's been happening in actual elections. if you go back to 2018, roughly 6% of black men voted republican in 2018 and you go to 2022, and the most recent election, right? roughly 6% of black men voting republican and go to 2020, right? you had roughly 12% and if you go back over the last four decades and you have smart voters and smart viewers and pollsters. so i'll get in the weeds. you go in the last four decades on average, you have black men voting 14% republican, on average for the last four decades, so it hasn't really moved. you did see a drop, a phenomenon caused by barack obama and after barack obama you sort of went back to the meme, right? it's been fairly consistent over the last four decades and that's not to say they can't make inroads and i would say to you, if you look at the issue agenda between the two candidates, like every voting group, what's the issue agenda and where are the candidates on the issue agenda and look at issues that are particularly important to black men. very important to black men, criminal justis reform. >> donald trump talking about his mug shot and a victim of the system helping? >> it's insulting. if you are supporting and pushing for reforms for the criminal justice system that helped african-americans and particularly help black men. one of his candidates for vp arguably killed the floyd criminal justice reform bill in the senate. so where are they on the issues? >> was this j.d. vance? >> no. scott of south carolina. >> by the way, this is joe biden at a -- just walking the streets of atlanta there and saying "hi" to voters and this is a surprise visit he's making and we don't have audio, but there are certainly quite a few people who are out there and excited to see him. >> more than was at that trump event at the barbershop. >> the barbershop was small. >> trump wasn't there, to be fair. he did call in to talk about his mug shot. the debate tonight -- >> how insulting is that, right? your pitch to black people is they arrested me, oh, and i have gold sneakers, right? it is quite frankly, it is kind of insulting. on the face of it, it isn't something that i would say and i'm not even under the -- >> there will be quite a few people watching. do you think it matters? ? let's level set. we hype these debates up and they're going to change the world and it's the most important debate ever and what we've seen is that sometimes candidates historically will get a bump out of this, right? i worked for the obama campaign in 2012 and the headlines said that mitt romney demolished barack obama and you did see a bump temporarily for mitt romney, but over the end, did it go back down because of the fundamentals of the campaign were the fundamentals of the campaign. i think for tonight is this, i think president biden has to show these voters especially talking about african-american voters and a lot of these voters who were with him in 2020 were holding back now because he's too old and not up for the job. >> he's got to show them that he's got to be the obama that we saw in the state of the union. >> biden. >> that only us nerds watched, who is witty, sharp and commands strength more than policy. >> you don't need me to tell you the full mug shot quote? >> what's the full mug shot quote. >> this is donald trump talking about his mug shot. the mug shot is the best f -- it just beat elvis presley and frank sinatra by a lot. that's the number one mug shot of all time. it's really an amazing thing. since it happened the support of the black community and the hispanic community has skyrocketed. >> now i kind of want to vote for him, too, because it was very elvis presley. >> and beat frank sinatra. >> it's an amazing thing. >> come be with me in person more often. >> i have to. you love this. >> they are known as the double haters. voters who don't like any major candidate, but this election has the most. a quarter of americans say they don't like president biden or donald trump. the largest number in ten elections according to pew. the deciders focus group, take a listen. >> let's go back to president biden. for all five of you, i'll call on you again, what, if >> i flip side. let's go to former president trump. what do you like about him? >> nothing. >> okay. >> i second that. absolutely nothing. >> you got to work with me on this. i'm looking for either something or no comment. what to you like? >> he got stuff done, whether it was good or bad, he got it done. >> got to feel for that moderator there. joining us is chief strategist and seen your political contributor matthew dowd. you look like you're in pain. was it hard listening to those folks? >> well, i'm in pain because the fact that that group is now 25% of the country is quite disturbing actually. i thought it was big when you and talked about this in 2022 and 2020. when the group was about 10 or 12%, and it's a rising group that means it's a people fed up with both political parties, both nominees in the course of this. it's the group that's going to ultimately decide the election. they decided the midterm ps they decided the 2020 election. and go back to 2016, they decide the 2016 election between hillary clinton and donald trump, so it's an important group. but unfortunate lirks it's growing. sdwl there's an argument that the first party to ditch their candidate, donald trump or joe biden, is going to be the party that wins the election. that ultimately voters just want somebody else so give them somebody else. do you think that's accurate? >> i don't know. we know that voters are not happy with joe biden as the incumbent. i think the question for the biden campaign is can they make everything about donald trump factual and all the things associated with him more fearful to these voters than keeping joe biden. so interestingly, this is not going to be a normal referendum election, i don't think. though donald trump will try to make it that. but i think donald trump has a hard time not making it about himself, which feeds into the biden campaign's effort to do that. so i think joe biden is going to be saying, do you really want to go back to that? he's what that means for america and donald trump is going to be you really want to stick with that. so who does that better, who does that more efficiently, and who does that with a greater sense of strength i think i disagree with one thing. the timing of this debate in the moment of america with these two candidates, both of which have a large group of people that dislike them, make it is more important than most any other debate i have been involved with. >> i think it's going to be really interesting. i'm excited to watch it tonight. who know what is we'll be talking about tomorrow. again, who knows. that's what make it is so interesting. it's going to be so unlike anything we have seen at least in my lifetime. matthew, thank you for joining me. i appreciate it. coming up next, what might be president biden's achilles heel with voters and what he could do tonight to turn things around in the polls. don't go anywhere. things around in the polls. don't go anywhere. ools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop? your wallet definitely is. 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(vo) when life's doors open, we'll handle the house. this week on chewy, shop all your pet's favorites and get a $30 egift card. enjoy more savings on more food, more toys, and more treats. more of everything they love, delivered right to your door. only with chewy. sleep more deeply and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattresses exclusive gel flex grid draws away heat, delivered right to your door. relieves pressure and instantly adapts. sleep better. live purple. right now save up to $800 off mattress sets at purple. visit purple.com or a store near you today. despite job numbers, voters don't trust president biden with their money. why is that? joining us now is christine romans. can that be changed in the next few months? >> it cannot be changed tonight. both thof these men have a lot of things to be proud about and herald in their economic records. but for some reason, the public does not give joe biden credit where it would have given trump credit. >> everyone is on social media and everyone is angry and complaining on social media. is the vibe the vibe that we see or check into? >> yes, and i think we lived through covid, which sucked our optimism. a lot of people are waiting for the next shoe to trop. that's a real kind of -- >> it's true. i have been pessimistic about the future ever since covid. >> it's a fog hanging over people's optimism. but i think inflation, the top of that line there is a good part of the story because even though inflation has come down, it's still higher today than it was under donald trump. and people have an affordability crunch they feel every single day. look at the jobs numbers. those are impressive job gains. that's a record number. we have never seen that in 41 months or something. it shows you that that part of the economy is absolutely super charged right now. donald trump used to take credit for every single stock market record high. you see stocks did very well under donald trump, but they have continued. when you look at this chart, the first part is donald trump when he was taking credit for every record high. joe biden, who doesn't get any credit for a strong economy, that stock market has just continued to go up. the stock market does not reflect main street and how people feel on main street, but this is an an interesting chart to me. >> if you're looking at the symptom market, the business community seems to be breaking for trump. >> that's what i was going to say. when you think about whatever the climate is for profits, because that's what the stock market represents, it's really good. so that's what i think is interesting. >> so what are they doing going to trump? >> they are trying to make sure they are not on the wrong side of a second president trump because that could bad for their business. i think the overall bottom line here is that paradox, the economy is strong. people feel like it's not affordable. you might hear joe biden talk about that tonight. what he's trying to do, what he has done to focus on the kitchen table, where donald trump wantsm e tax cuts and more deregulation, which is just good for business. >> thank you so much. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now.
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