activists with the same old rants and lies while declaring without a hint of irony, his love for the 10 commandments. susan and ashley joined me to discuss the politics of all this and more. running out the clock, the supreme court has days to decide more than a dozen pivotal cases including trump's claim of presidential immunity. discussing if justice delay will be justice denied. did a countdown, the final weekend before the two candidates come face-to-face in atlanta. i talked with the biden attorney who we just learned is helping the president for his debate with his disgraced predecessor. former white house counsel, he weighs in on presidential immunity. congresswoman maxine waters is here to talking about coming face-to-face in court with him and that target her with racist death threats. i'm jonathan capehart and this is the saturday show. it is a busy day for donald trump ahead of what will be a very consequential week for the criminally convicted former president and the country. in less than an hour, trump will take the stage in philadelphia for his last rally before his first 2024 debate with president biden in atlanta on thursday. earlier today, trump addressed the conservative faith and freedom coalition where he praised mobsters and railed against the justice system. >> the weaponization of law enforcement is the greatest threat to freedom to america today, i think. nobody knows that better than me, the late great al capone, right. i tell him all the time, scarface, he did not go through what i went through. i got indicted more than him, sir, for nothing, no crimes. >> trump also repeated his usual lies about voter fraud days before the supreme court is expected to weigh in on his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. the high courts right-wing super majority agreed to hear trump's presidential immunity claim more than three months ago and its long-delayed decision is a victory for trump to trump's federal election interference trial has gone from march start date to legal limbo as the lower court and the rest of us await the supreme court decision. with each passing day, it becomes less and less likely that before the next election, donald trump will be held accountable for trying to overturn the last one. former supreme court clerk says that the justices dithering about trump is far more than fishy, it is rotten. she writes in the new york times, quote, there are explanations that have nothing to do with politics for why a ruling still has not been issued. the reason to think something is rotten at the core are impossible to ignore. she calls trump's arguments for immunity, quote, outlandish. especially the idea that a president would have to have impeachment conviction before they could be punished for any crime. as a reminder, this is what trump's lawyers said in april about whether a commander-in- chief could get away with murder. >> if the president decides his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts from which you can get immunity? >> it would depend on the hypothetical. >> i'm no lawyer but you would think it would take less than 58 days to rule that nonsense unconstitutional. joining me is mark joseph stern, senior writer for slate and leah littman, professor at university of michigan law school and former supreme court law clerk, who is also co-host of the podcast, strict scrutiny . thank you both very much for coming to the saturday show . leah, let me go back to something you wrote in the new york times, there are explanations that have nothing to do with politics for why a ruling still has not been issued in presidential immunity case. what could those explanations be? >> possible good faith explanations include things like the case was argued in april, the supreme court still has cases outstanding from when they heard arguments in december. yesterday it had solved the case argued in november so it is not surprising argued in april falls at the bottom of the barrel as far as cases that end up resolved closer to the term. there are also so many reasons to think and efficient to explain what is going on, in particular how they solved the colorado case for donald trump to be on the ballot in time for super tuesday and did so within 50 something days of deciding to hear the case. here it has been over 100 days since they decided to take the immunity case. jack smith asked them to take it up two months before that so they have been delaying this case and acted much more quickly in many others. >> mm-hmm. mark, i went to drill down on something, the immunity question boils down to the definition of official acts. where do you think the justices will draw the line? >> i think this will be a muddled decision that does not have a clear victory to either side. the three liberals would love to give a clear victory to jack smith, they think all of this is ridiculous nonsense with no basis in the constitution, i tend to agree with them. chief justice john roberts and amy coney barrett were looking for compromise during oral arguments but i think that end up doing is sending it back down to the lower court and have her parse the difference in the acts trump is allyship committed here, whether official interest presidential duties or unofficial. for instance, trying to create a slate of fake electors that would give trump a legitimate majority in electrical college. it will run out the clock even more, that will take months in the lower courts, if not longer. there will be appeal that ends up back at scotus. this is crucial, it takes a heart out of the case. the whole argument the special tutor -- prosecutors brought, the president weaponizing's constitutional powers in order to halt the peaceful transition of power to eight new president and stand in the way of democracy. that should be in the view of special counsel of the united states government, that should be a criminal offense. we should be able to put that in front of a jury, this man committed a crime. what the supreme court may end up doing to salvage part of the case is to say anything trump did that fell under his constitutional authority, even if it was misusing that authority in anti- constitutional way, in short, get ready for a big mess. >> listening to mark, i'm thinking the legitimacy, if the court does what mark is predicting, the legitimacy of the court will be supremely, no pun intended, supremely in question. i want to come back to something you wrote in the new york times where you say, this whole thing is rotten in terms of the delay in the immunity case. what is the evidence of something rotten and doesn't get to the overall problem of the legitimacy in the eyes of the public, the legitimacy of the court? >> there so much wrong, i don't want to take up your entire program. one thing is they managed to act much more quickly in cases that benefited donald trump and the republican party. you think back to when challengers challenged president biden's test or vaccination program, the court ruled in two weeks, that was a divided decision and yet they got that one out. even if there is disagreement in the immunities decision, it does not explain why it is taking so much longer than other decisions that engender disagreement and back to the timing in ways that benefit one side versus the other. >> right. let me stop you right there, leah. the bigger question now is time to get to is, as a result of all of this, do you think chief justice roberts has lost control of the court? >> absolutely. look at how his colleagues are caving. justice alito thumbing his nose at democracy and everything else that should matter to this country. the chief justice isn't in a position to do anything about it, he is not even attempted to because some of the other evidence where biden should think something is wrong with the court, justice alito's homes displayed multiple flags associated with the stop the steal movement, which is also behind the trump immunity claim as well as another january 6th case that is outstanding at the supreme court to take away some of the additional charges in the election interference case against donald trump. so yes, it seems as though the chief justice has lost control of the court, or at least he is not done nearly enough to rein it in. as to whether this will affect the legitimacy of the supreme court in the eyes of the public, from my perspective, my concern is the media might translate a split ruling of the kind mark was describing as a compromise or middle-of-the-road balance. in reality, it would decline to reject completely outlandish position and in the process, hand donald trump a significant victory by allowing him to continue to run out the clock and prevent a jury of his peers deciding whether he engaged in illegal election interference. >> mark, one more thing about something you read about in the rohini decision, the great 8-1 decision, domestic abusers should not be able to have guns. great decision but you write, the headline of your piece is, why the decision of running domestic abusers to own guns isn't all good news, real quick. >> the supreme court did not foreclose future second amendment challenges to commonsense gun restrictions. the court left the door open, this one goes too far, we will not harm domestic abusers today. it declined to walk back its broader loonie and anti- historical position on a very robust individual right to bear arms. i will also say, the case gave the conservative justices an opportunity to walk back some of their extremism on originalism. a few of them kind of took it, none of them acknowledged that they were the reason lower courts have issued those rash of lucky decisions, arming the mystic abusers, none of the conservatives would say, we got it wrong, we went to far, we used unworkable tests and language and bad history and we need to take a clear more legible approach to the law. they would not admit a single bit of fault. that suggests to me they are not adjacent, we will be the adults in the room when we need to but they will continue to let the lower courts run wild when it comes to trampling over commonsense gun safety laws. >> mark joseph stern, leah litman, thank you for coming on the saturday show. coming up, debate prep, we are days away from the first debate between president biden and donald trump i spoke with the president's personal attorney who is playing the role of trump during biden travis debate prep again this year. >> the goal is to take the performance of the opponent as close to what you think it will be as possible. it is not theatrical. vice president kamala harris described the stark choice voters have between the president and trump what she told morning joe in exclusive interview after the break. don't go anywhere, you're watching the saturday show. let's fly! 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[whoosh] ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai and intel. clearing the way, [rumble] [whoosh] so you arrive exactly where you belong. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. with absorbine pro, talk to a healthcare provider pain won't hold you back from your passions. it's the only solution with two max-strength anesthetics to deliver the strongest numbing pain relief available. so, do your thing like a pro, pain-free. absorbine pro. a slow network is no network for business. that's why more choose comcast business. and now, we're introducing ultimate speed for business —our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile. and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds... at no additional cost. it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! where five days away from historic shut out in atlanta, the first presidential debate of the 2024 campaign between joe biden and donald trump. the first time in history a sitting president will debate a former president for the privilege of being the next president of the united states. things have changed since their two debates in 2020, most notably, trump will take the stage as the first former president to be convicted of felony crimes, 34 to be exact. this weekend, the two candidates are spending their time in very different ways to donald trump is on the campaign trail today where he spoke at the faith and freedom coalition room to majority conference a few hours ago, he railed against his favorite targets, immigrant, democrats, and the media and told the weird shark story again. he is moments away from speaking at a rally in philadelphia. meanwhile, president biden is hunkered down at camp david going over policy areas and debate strategies with his senior campaign aides. this week, i sat down with someone who knows what it takes to prepare candidates for presidential debate, especially one with donald trump. bob bauer played donald trump in joe biden's 2020 mock debate sessions and nbc news just learned he is doing the same this time around at camp david. he is president biden's personal attorney, former white house counsel to president obama and law professor at nyu. we discussed the upcoming debate, the living -- looming supreme court decision on the immunity claim and his new book, the unraveling, reflections on politics without ethics and democracy in crisis. bob bauer, welcome to the saturday show. >> thanks very much, i'm pleased to be here. >> before we get into your book, i want you to put your old hat on as former white house counsel under president obama, as we speak right now, we are waiting for the supreme court to render, hand down a decision on former president donald trump's claim of immunity, they could give him partial immunity, they could give him full immunity, they could say, no, you don't have immunity. my overarching question to you as former white house counsel, the impact of this ruling on the presidency, especially if it is a partial immunity or full immunity? >> you're asking the right question, immediate impact polar focus on, what is it mean for the special counsel prosecutions? people are wondering if there's any chance whatsoever of that given this case, given potential outcomes of this case, those cases would go to trial this year. that is one set of questions, the one you're asking, the long- term constitutional question is a question of paramount importance for future presidencies, no doubt about it. there's a long history of wrestling with that issue, beginning with the office of legal counsel opinions in 1973 and 2000 holding presidents could be investigated but not indicted while in office. we will have a fuller treatment outside the executive branch by the court of these kinds of issues. >> let's talk about your memoir , it takes us through the difficult political battles you faced. which one was the most informative and guides your thinking today? >> that is an interesting question, i never looked at it that way. in any given election cycle, the election of barack obama, joe biden, i thought about those moments and tried to draw conclusions about american politics at that time. the memoir takes it from literally the beginning of my involvement, the first watergate of the 1970s, all the way to the present day. it is the act of tracing the changes in our politics i'm concerned with there. i come to the conclusion there needs to be a call for the restoration of ethics in politics, responsibly on the part of people in government and politics who hold so much of the health of our norms in their hands. >> are you shocked by how quickly ethics seem to have eroded? to my mind, literally in one presidential term, that of donald trump's. >> yes, i think no question recent years accelerated it, what you have are not norms paid lip service to, literally repudiated, for example, independence of the department of justice. richard nixon, when asked years ago, he would've said, of course, the department of justice needs to be independent, and depend on law enforcement decisions. that is not the view of the former president in donald trump, many of those with him and other issues are challenging what we thought were common understandings about what is necessary for the health of democracy. >> right now, that answers focused on the executive branch. does that also extend to erosion of ethics at the legislative branch or even the judicial branch? >> absolutely the legislative branch, one of my earliest memories in unmanaged politics was reading about shop exchange on the floor of the senate between the liberal hubert humphrey and conservative barry goldwater, after which they were seen walking arm in arm off the floor to the coat room to have a friendly conversation . they could not disagree more about the policy issues of the day. now, you see combativeness and aggressiveness, rejection is him in which there are members of congress who do not want to appear walking arm in arm after a dispute and laying aside differences in common institutional position, before anything else, and at the end of everything else, they are united states senators and uphold the sanctity and integrity and processes of the institution. it has gotten so deeply politicized you hear about members who behave toward one another and continue to behave toward one another in a way that is corrosive of the traditions and fundamental norms of the institution. >> you write, quote, the trump campaign was constructed around his maniacal refusal to accept rejection. we knew it was coming in the event he lost his re-election in 2020. when did it click for you to come up with these plans? i want to point out, you mobilize law firms to come up with different topics for contingency plans in the event trump lost. >> donald trump never made bones about his basic lease, he can't lose the election unless the election is rigged. bear in mind, for example, we lost the iowa caucuses to ted cruz, he said in the election in iowa was rigged. he was not fighting this. since the early days of making those kinds of statements, he turned into a party program and we have a wave of election a nihilism, not all corners of the republican party but significant swath of the party that pledge their allegiance to donald trump. that is a change. we had plenty of notice that is what we are looking at, he made no bones about it since. he has had -- said the same thing since repeatedly. the biden team put untold numbers of hours contingency plan, all of which given how vigorously he tried to contest the election, how unsuccessfully he contested the election, all of which turned out to be very valuable to us. >> before i let you go, i can't have you here not talk about the thing everybody talking about in your book and that is in 2020, you played donald trump in debate prep. you watched hours upon hours of video donald trump, not only as president or candidate but going way back into his life. given what we have seen, given what you have seen over the last four years, how would you advise the trump in debate prep ? how should that person best repair president biden for the trump he is going to face next week? >> without speaking to this particular debate or purporting to give advice on the air, i would say any debate prep, i have done it for other candidates, i have played other roles, the goal is to take the performance of the opponent as close to what you think it is going to be as possible. it is not theatrical, it is an attempt to give the opponent a feel for what they will likely face, which is why as you point out, i immersed myself, as i did in other roles, audio and video, whatever it could be. that is how it gets done. >> a great nonanswer insert. >> it was an answer. >> it was an answer but not the one i was hoping for. bob bauer, thank you very much for coming to the saturday show. >> thank you so much. still to come, a new documentary about the history of the black beetle that paved the way for more representation and diversity in the toy industry. the designer of the doll, kenny black perkins, joins me later in the show. first, donald trump weighs in on the new louisiana law that mandates placing the 10 commandments in public classrooms. what he said and why it matters, after the break. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. 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night, the presidential candidates are sharpening arguments for why the other guy is unfit for office. donald trump and his maga allies repeatedly claim president biden is old and incompetent. trump is not exactly a specimen of youth but he also happens to be awaiting sentencing next month on his 34 felony guilty verdicts and stands indicted in three other criminal cases. vice president kamala harris spoke about the debates high- stakes and stark choices in exclusive interview with morning joe's mika brzezinski. >> joe biden in this debate will make clear the contrast. the many issues in our country and world that are complex and nuanced, november 2024 is binary . and when you look at the difference, i would ask people to really imagine what the world will be like on january 20, 2025. on the one hand, you have joe biden, who has spent his life and career fighting for the well-being of other people including healthcare. on the other hand, you have the former president, who spent full-time when he was president, trying to get rid of the affordable care act. if he is successful as president again, it would mean over 100 million people would be stripped of healthcare coverage on the one hand, joe biden, under his leadership, bipartisan support for the first meaningful gun safety legislation in 30 years. on the other hand, the former president, who when speaking of survivors of horrendous gun violence says, get over it. he will probably talk about to the nra about how he did nothing on the issue. i could go on and on. i think the debate will make clear the contrast between our president, the current president, who works on behalf of the american people, fights for the american people and a former president who pretty much spends full-time fighting for himself. >> you can watch the full interview with vice president kamala harris first thing monday on morning joe. joining me now, republican strategist and msnbc political analyst and democratic strategist and former communications director for vice president harris and former speaker nancy pelosi. she is a former senior adviser to presidents obama and biden. susan and ashley, your reactions to what we just heard from the vice president in that clip of our interview with mika. susan, you go first. >> she was setting up the stage in a narrative the biden and harris team wants to have going into the debate, exactly the narrative you should have however, i don't know if it will be something she will be able to see for at least the first 10 or 15 minutes of the debate as things shake out because one of the things that is so important, talking about the contrast that needs to be set up, it is important for listeners to know, it is not that they will have their mic shut off if they go too long, it is that they will both be off unless it is their turn to speak . which means, donald trump can keep yelling and going off and have president biden looked a little startled as a result, i hope that is something the biden team is addressing. overall, i think once we get past the first 10 or 15 minutes, and they have to talk about the issues, i think it will be a a startling comparison and one that will favor biden. ashley, what you think? >> i think she is absolutely right, this is about contrast. my advice to the president would be, too often, democrats, which are out of our opponents, these facts, statistics, all of this other stuff that flies over the head of the audience. my suggestion would be the president needs to do more storytelling, tell the ark of the progress we made as a nation, he has done these big bipartisan things from guns to infrastructure, how he will back the economy, the strongest in the world after the pandemic. that is what he has to do. my other piece of suggestion or advice, the day after the debate almost as important as the debate itself. my suggestion would be to put a real face around the progress. employed real people, not elected officials like gavin newsom, my cousin got $100,000 in student loans canceled. she should be on a billboard talking. or mayors that are seeing record low rates in violence and crime. that will make the message much more salient. >> i want to join one other thing, ashley, donald trump commented on louisiana's decision to mandate hanging the 10 commandments in public school classrooms. watch this. >> who likes the 10 commandments going up in the school? [ cheers and applause ] they think it is such a bad thing, i said, has anyone read the, thou shall not steal? has anybody read this? >> actually, has he read the 10 commandments? no one is saying the 10 commandments are bad. that explained why mandating their placement in public schools is so alarming. >> i think to your point, it is clear trump has not actually read the commandments. the second of them being the most important, which is, love thy neighbor. there is nothing, i think the thing about trump, it is like the joke is on us. he is standing before christians arguing we need to put the 10 commandments in school while quoting from scarface and all sorts of, it is like the joke is always on us. there's nothing about donald trump that aligns with christianity and being a christian. when i say this, you have a former president convicted of sexual assault against a woman and rape against women, 34 counts of cheating, lying, and stealing , to his point. to me, folks have to stop falling for this. it is kind of laughable to some degree. >> susan, we have new reporting that indicates donald trump may have narrowed his vice presidential pick down to north dakota governor doug burgum, ohio senator j.d. vance, florida senator marco rubio. moments ago, trump told reporters in philadelphia he has picked his vice president. he has not told that person yet but that person will be at the debate. what in the apprentice -- who do you think it is going to be? >> i would lean toward doug burgum , excuse me, from north dakota. mostly because he is as plain and flat as can be. he has no platform whatsoever. he will fill the bill as trump sees it as his job to stand there, that's it, nothing else. you know. he probably likes the fact he has not made his own money. the job of vice president, when you are donald trump's vice president, is to have no platform and to have no voice. the two senators do have platforms and do have voices and do have a lot of media clips out there that would not sound necessarily so good to be his running mate. >> yeah, i love how you say the governor of the flat state of north dakota is flat. i say that as someone married to a north dakota and i say that with humility and pride. susan del percio and ashley etienne, thank you so much for coming back to the saturday show. still to come, a texas man that sent racist death threats to california congressman maxine waters is facing prison time. congresswoman waters joins me next to talk about coming face- to-face with him in court and the rising tide of political violence against elected officials. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. and it could strike at any time. think you're not at risk? wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. 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(♪♪) at evernorth, we combine medical and pharmacy data with behavioral health data to identify members in need of care. predicting and treating behavioral health issues quickly... while lowering costs for plan sponsors and members. that's wonder made possible. evernorth health services auntie, you can't put that right in the dishwasher. watch me. with cascade platinum plus i have upped my dish game. i just scrape... load... and i'm done. in that dishwasher? in that dishwasher. only platinum plus is packed with more dawn to remove up to 100% of grease and food residue. get the highest standard of clean, even in your machine. clean enough for ya? yeah. scrape, load, done. cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. threats against lawmakers are on the rise again after hitting all-time high in 2021 when donald trump's followers stormed the capitol on january 6th. last year, capitol police investigative more than 8000 threats against members of congress, increase from 2022. a spokesman for the department predicted 2024 will be, quote, a very busy year for our special agents. this week, a texas man who vowed to kill congressman maxine waters was sentenced to 33 months in prison and $10,000 fine. the man left her voicemails with violent and racist threats in 2022 and doubled down when police warned him to stop. congresswoman waters attended the man's sentencing hearing and told the court that the threats gave her nightmares and made her and her family fear for their lives. the los angeles times reported the congresswoman described herself as, quote, hunted. joining me is democratic congressman maxine waters of congress, ranking member of the house finance committee. thank you for coming to the saturday show . you have been in the public eye for decades, why were these threats particularly painful? >> you know, it was sinister. a man that continued to call four times and made racial comments, he basically said, not only was he going to put up bullet between my eyes, he was going to cut my throat. i want to tell you, it did get to me. i'm not someone who walks around fearful all the time but this was more sinister, it was deadly. i'm haunted by those kinds of comments coming from him. >> congresswoman, what made you want to face your harasser in court? >> i wanted to see who this human being was. and when he saw me, what was it about me that made him want to kill me? what did i say, what did i do that made him want to slit my throat or put a bullet between my eyes? i listened to him and i hope you listened to me. i had my children in court me, my daughter was with me and my son was with me, they are always fearful i'm going to be killed. and my staff has to endure these kinds of threats that this is not the first one we had, we have had some others sentence and put into jail. this one seems more consistent and more serious. again, it seems as if this man was intent on not only threatening me but he said he had people in the los angeles area, some of his friends or groups of people that he works with that were going to get me. that they had a contract out on my life. >> how concerned are you about your safety if donald trump is re-elected? >> i'm very concerned, not only about my safety and not only about the safety of members of congress. i'm concerned about the safety of so many people in this country, particularly people of color. donald trump has said that if he does not win, it is going to be fraud. because it is going to be fraud, there will be blood in the streets. he threatens about a civil war and he threatens there's going to be violence. i would say all of this talk is motivational with many of those who are racist, who are sitting at home listening to him and they are taking him up on his threats, even before the elections take place. it is about thousands, maybe millions of people being threatened and being at risk because of donald trump and his desire to seek revenge on anything and everybody. >> congresswoman, really quickly, less than two minutes left, 60 years ago this week, three activists, james chaney, andrew goodman, they were murdered for trying to register black mississippi residents during freedom summer, what do you see as their legacy today, especially as the nation faces more threats of political violence like the ones you faced. >> first of all, i want to thank those people who joined the civil rights movement who are not black, who are not people of color, who joined with us to try to get justice and equality in this country. they were killed, murder, i do believe having listened to donald trump so many times and having the attack, the insurrection that took place on the house of representatives in congress, on the capitol, the capitol grounds, we could be in for more killings like that. i think donald trump has to take responsibility. what he is saying about blood in the streets and violence if he is not elected to be the president of the united states of america. >> as always, california congressman, maxine waters, thank you for coming to the saturday show. >> thank you so very much up next, new documentary explores the creation of the first black barbie doll and how it inspired a generation. the designer of the doll, kitty black perkins joins me next to discuss why black barbie was so important to so many women and girls. every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. 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(roommate) i did. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice, and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain. these days everyone is staring at screens, and watching their spending. good vision is more important than ever, but so is saving. that's why america's best includes a free eye exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for just $79.95. book an exam online today. change began with a simple question, why don't we make a barbie that looks like me? in the 1960s, a black woman who worked at mattel asked that company's president that question. years later in 1980, kitty black perkins picked up the torch pioneering the design of the first black barbie with the tagline, she is black, she is beautiful, she is dynamite. the doll became a cultural icon symbolizing the importance of representation and diversity in the toy industry and beyond. now a new netflix documentary takes a look back at the journey of the black women who helped reshape the barbie brand. take a look. >> crowning this doll as barbie, the fight for, no, no, we can't just call it a fashion doll, this is a barbie too, was telling the world black is beautiful too. >> to step forward made when they called the black dog barbie and not another name, it allowed the black girl to be the heroine of the story. >> so proud of black women for calling out things that are important to us in spaces that were so often times silenced. >> that last person you saw is the person you see on the screen, kitty black perkins, former chief designer for mattel and designer of the first black barbie. she is featured in the documentary to ms. perkins, welcome to the saturday show . how did you go about designing the first white barbie so she truly represented black women in looks and style? >> thank you so much, jonathan, for having me on. i am a fan to i would say i started because i wanted the doll to look like me. and with that in mind, i was able to pull together a team that would achieve all of that. we gave barbie a short natural, we gave her a great medium skin tone, we gave her nice features like thicker lips, wider nose, slim silhouette instead of the regular ballgown we usually do for barbie. we wanted the doll to reflect what women of color would look like you i think we achieved that. >> ms. perkins, could you talk about the importance of representation? one thing that struck me about that documentary was how the pain of not seeing dolls that looked like them was still very present for a couple of the women interviewed in the documentary, we are talking about women not in their teens or early 20s, these are fully mature women for whom the pain of not seeing a doll like themselves is still there for them. >> i have to tell you that myself, i did not play with barbies when i was little girl, i did not even have black dolls. black dolls is something that attributes to a child's self- esteem. when i moved to los angeles, california, my self- esteem was very low and i had to work on that. when i started working for mattel and the opportunity came up for me to do a black doll, i could relate very well with it because it was something that needed to be done, it is something every little girl really needs to be able to have and play with. the idea of black barbie being the first of her kind is unbelievable. it is fantastic. >> whitney get your reaction to something said in the documentary, beulah mae mitchell said that when you came to mattel, she says in the documentary, you were a real life barbie. you were chic and fabulous, you drove a convertible sports car, your hair blue in the wind, what was your reaction when you heard her say that about you? >> i'm the kind of person that does not take compliments very well but i love the fact she looked at me in that aspect. i needed a lot of work when i first arrived in los angeles. i looked at all of the beautiful black women around me and my whole idea was to become them. when i was allowed to interview for mattel, i of course wanted to look the part because i felt if i looked the part, i had a better chance of getting a job and i did. >> i want to point out one thing, shonda rhymes is in the documentary, she is one of the big ep's, she writes, i did not think they were dolls, talking about arby's, they were representations of who i wanted to be at a certain point. she also points out, it is no accident that olivia pope from scandal looked and dressed like barbie. it was a joy to have you on, kitty black perkins. what a joy to have you on the show. >> like i said, i'm a true fan. >> i heard, that warms my heart. thank you. more of the saturday show when we come back. save wildlife affected by oil. dawn platinum cleans to the squeak. if you have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... put it in check with rinvoq... a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check! when flares kept trying to slow me down i got lasting steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check! and when my doctor saw damage, rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check! for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief lasting steroid-free remission. and visibly reduced damage. check. check. and check! rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers, including lymphoma and skin, heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc and crohn's in check ...and keep them there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. -cologuard®? 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