me going and i think you all. i hope you have a relaxing few days. >> we will see you. >> velshi starts now. >> it is sunday june 9th. with less than five months ago since the 2024 presidential election, anxiety is running high about the prospect of donald trump's return to the white house. his bow to exact retribution against enemies, especially in the wake of his historic criminal conviction, has raised fears he could abuse the powers of the presidency and that he could further erode democracy with another four years in office. americans are not the only ones experiencing this anxiety. many of our allies abroad are feeling similarly apprehensive about trump's possible return to power, and they are sharing those concerns about how he could destabilize democracy in the united dates and abroad. trump took an isolationist stance during his first four years of office and signals during his current campaign that he would take a similar approach during a second term. his admiration for russian president vladimir putin is also a huge concern for many of america's european allies. especially since russia poses a physical and existential threat to the entire continent, as putin's war in ukraine continues. many nato countries were particularly troubled by one of trump's comments earlier this year. during a campaign rally in february the former president once again brought up one of his biggest hangups with nato that other countries should be contributing more money to their defense spending. if they don't pay, he warned, then he would encourage russia to quote, do whatever the hell they won't. that is is misunderstanding or blatant rents of the importance of maintaining not just for good relationships with allies, especially in terms of trade and national security, but maintaining nato, the most powerful military alliance in the history of the world. concerns about how trump could shake up the global order, are already causing some nations to start making contingency plans. in a recent future for the atlantic about your anxieties about the possibility of another four years of trump, mccain kochman's right about how germany for example is already making contingency plans. inside the foreign ministry, officials have mapped out a range of policy areas, likely to be destabilized by trump's re-election. nato, ukraine, terrace, climate change, and writing detailed proposals for how to deal with the fallout, end quote. here in the united states, current and former government workers are similarly flagging some specific concerns about how trump could abuse the government, for self-serving purposes. last week, nbc news reported former intelligence officials are warning that trump could weaponize america's spy service, to target his political enemies in order to fulfill his promise of retribution. and there may only be limited ways to stop him. a former general counsel for the national security agency added quote, if a determined president supported by a group of senior aides, who will both support and enable him and did not object, wishes to do his reading through the entire executive branch, there are few practical limits on his ability to do so, unless congress has the political will to step in. the law is going to be pushed pretty far, before it is actually going to produce a counter reaction, end quote. joining me is democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, the ranking democrat on the house oversight and accountability committee. the previously served as lease -- lead house manager for donald trump second impeachment trial as well as a member of the select january 6 committee. congressman, good to see. donald trump has brought up you, the committee members as people against two he would exact retribution, suggesting you should be imprisoned. >> michael cohen sent shivers down a lot of spines, talking about how he believes attorney general barr and donald trump were directly involved in the order to keep him in prison, when everybody else was, with nonviolent offenses were being released in covid-19. then had him put in solitary confinement when he refused to sign a statement saying he would not exercise first amendment rights against donald trump. essentially. yeah, this is serious business when you got trump running around the country talking about centralizing all department of justice authority under him, -- is former omb director and head of the center of knowing america is talking about bringing the department of justice under the president, violating prosecutorial independence and centralizing all executive power there for the purposes of going after, as donald trump says, his political opponents, which appears to be his central agenda. it is one of a vengeance and victor active action toward people he views as not sufficiently supportive of him. >> i want to ask you about what russell wrote and project 2025. the idea of centralizing and increasing executive authority is something other presidents have tried. and people have pushed back against and nobody has done it or suggested it the way donald trump has peer but they are suggesting and the heritage foundation and hundred 2025, the problem is people tend to be relatively supportive of the president having more authority and executive having more authority if it is there president. if it is the person they voted for. but this is actually a really dangerous matter. if you can, you good at explaining these things. let our viewers understand why it is dangerous that the president wants what some people would say incremental executive authority, but throws our balance of checks and balances out of whack. >> i like to think about the sharpie in the hurricane, when donald trump tried to override and in some sense did override to scientists -- the scientists and noaa, saying that hurricane will hit alabama causing chaos in places where the hurricane was going to hit at alabama, where it was not going to hit. but that is what they wanted to do to the federal government, they want to override professional expertise and the protections of the civil service. they want to create something called schedule f and take tens of thousands of jobs that are now protected in the professional civil service, to put them directly under the president, to appoint political flunkies and sycophants. and those people will just do the will of the president, as i talked about setting up detention camps for immigrants, mass deportations, much more aggressive action against abortion, to ban abortion drugs in the country. right now, one third of women in america live in states where abortion is, in all. they want to make that go nationwide, and including speaker johnson. they are on the life begins at conception act and that is very much part of what they want to do. if you haven't read it, you should read it because a lot of it is the formula for the christian white nationalism, that they want to make a central feature of federal government action. >> when we spoke to margaret atwood about this on are banned club and she said she wrote the book in 1985 it was, that is never going to happen and certainly will never happen in america. you are actually right, the handmade tail -- handmaid's tale is a book for what republicans want. speaker johnson appointed the pennsylvania congressman scott perry and ronny jackson to -- two loyal as lies to the house intelligence committee. representative perry has been implicated in the events leading up to january 6. when asked why he chose scott perry, considering his ties to donald trump's efforts to overturn the election, i was gob smacked by this. speaker johnson told nbc news, i'm quoting, i think that is all behind us. those are his words, i kept -- it is not behind us in any way. >> when they say behind us, they mean it is in front of us. you know, it is a characteristic of fascist political parties, that they don't accept outcome of democratic elections that don't go their way and already donald trump is beginning to repeat the nonsense about how the only way he can lose is if the election is stolen from him. so they are trying to set people up, precisely for january 6th type actions in different parts of the country, and assaults on the electoral process and electoral system. and the leaders around donald trump, they echo him in saying the 2020 election was stolen despite the fact that joe biden won by more than 7 million votes, in the electoral college and they won't accept it. but trump has parted a series of political criminals including michael flynn, roger stone, steve bannon, paul manafort, dinesh desousa, they form the inner coterie of his political campaign and trump is saying that he will pardon all of the january 6th hostages, or political prisoners as he sometimes calls them. and these people will be the political shock troops for other kinds of violent actions. these are people convicted of violently assaulting our police officers, and trying to overthrow the 2024 election. >> let's talk about retribution. there's one thing pardoning these people, is one element. the other one is that donald trump continues to say in his -- and his acolytes say in various different ways that they are going after people who have opposed them. those people, as we said, people like you, the michael cohens of the world. journalists, critics, opposition leaders, judges, witnesses, jurors. the list could be quite long and donald trump has set it. kash patel has set it. others have said they will go after people. you are a very sober, you know, lawyer, who understands what the powers and limitations of the executive branch are. tell me, are you worried about this retribution concept playing out >> sure, it's been central to authoritarian destabilization, of liberal democracies all over the world. right now, they are invoking the promiscuously, because they want to distract people from the fact that a jury of donald trump's peers, 12 new yorkers, found beyond any reasonable doubt, that he was guilty of 34 different criminal counts. and so, they have to attack the system of the rule of law. if you are really defending the rule of law, you wouldn't go around saying, now we are going to turn the prosecutors in place against you, you would be saying, we're going to restore the rule of law, which is what we've been saying against donald trump. when they tried to violently overthrow the 2024 -- 2020 election, our answer, was we are going to violently overthrow the 2024 election. no, we will build in safeguards so you can do this again. we've got one political party trying to stand for the constitution, for the rule of law and another that is overtly now talking about a post- constitutional america. if you look at this article in the washington post this morning about russell votes, they are trying to do what donald trump is repeatedly urged, which is to set the constitution aside and that is an absolute betrayal of our entire history and everything the founders fought for, everything that veterans in america fought for and everything people in the armed services today are fighting for and everything our communities stand for across the country. so we've got to let people know that this is a direct attack on our system of government. >> it is always good to see. thank you for joining us this morning. congressman jamie raskin is democrat of maryland. moments ago, to president biden attended a wreath laying outside of paris as he wraps up his state visit to france. we will speak with nbc's kelly o'donnell, who is in paris. backlash against the president's controversial order policy. charges or changes now going into effect with major implications for those seeking asylum in this country. why critics are likening the crackdown to the trump era immigration policy. rising death toll in gaza after one of israel's bloodiest raids since october 7th, hundreds of palestinians were killed as four hoschton -- 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lives during world war i. throughout the trip, the president emphasized america strong support for european security. the crucial importance of the li ship with nato countries, and the fight to preserve global democracies. joining me from paris is nbc news senior white house correspondent, my friend kelly o'donnell who's been traveling with the president. it is great to see you again, thank you for being with us. this is a last j -- day of joe biden trip to france. the tone was deliberately in contrast to what we have heard in many cases from donald trump, as it relates to the global alliance, that took place in world war i, that was formed after world war ii, and that has been working to stop the russian takeover of ukraine. >> reporter: very implicitly. the president has not talked about donald trump but he has talked extensively about the importance of alliances, partnerships with other nations and that those make america safe. and the president, by visiting the cemetery you reference, cemetery donald trump did not visit, i was on that trip in 2018 when he was here for the centennial of world war i. he did not go to that cemetery at the time, they said because of weather. later, his then chief of staff john kelly said the president didn't want to go, and had used what is become a very well known phrase, suckers and losers in referring to those fallen heroes. that was then. today, president biden wanted to go to that cemetery with the first lady. they place a wreath and paid respect and the president came forward to the small group of reporters traveling with him and talked about the importance, that he couldn't come here to france, to honor the heroes of d-day without also going to the cemetery that is about an hour outside paris. the president said democracy matters and that our reverence for those who gave their lives in service to the united dates and to our allies, is an important part of democracy. in his words and actions and the itinerary of the trip, he has tried to emphasize that but notably he was asked by one of the reporters about the contrast with donald trump and did not answer that on foreign soil and asked for the next question. so the president, adhering to the old way of doing things, that you don't is your opponents explicitly outside the country. >> it is always great to have you here. good to see you, my old friend. nbc's kelly o'donnell in paris. for years, the right to vote is under attack in certain red states. they have tried it all, voter i -- i.d. laws, even banning people from handing out water in voting lines and now they are getting creative, attempting to cut off access at the knees with voter registration. we will talk about that, not. balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪watch out for offers too good to be true.♪ that's phishing! ♪someone's trying to take advantage of you.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪ ♪we can secure our world.♪ ♪don't just use a password alone.♪ ♪mfa sends a call, a text or a code to your phone.♪ learn more at cisa.gov/secureourworld ♪that's how we can secure our world!♪ every day, more dog people, and more vets are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. they're quitting the kibble. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually well, food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. get 50% off your first box at thefarmersdog.com/realfood in the year 1890, a collection of women's rights groups that once competed against one another, united with one goal in mind. to win for women, the right to vote. the new organization was the national american women's suffrage association. the group was led over the years by powerhouses like susan b anthony, lucy stone and elizabeth cady stanton. while the suffrage groups were revolutionary for their time, not everyone was allowed to participate. some state and local wrenches excluded black women in the early 1900s. the national american women's suffrage association aim to to pass enough state laws allowing women to vote and would force congress to approve a federal amendment to the constitution. decades of persistence paid off. august 18th of 1920, the 19th amendment was finally ratified. right around that time the suffragist of the national american suffrage association started a new group called the league of women voters. now that women have the right to vote it was time to help them participate in democracy as part of their civic duty. the league of women voters prioritize educating newly minted voters with nonpartisan information about candidates, election issues, and voting procedures. that included registration drives to help women properly registered to vote. on november 2nd, 1920, more than 1 million women across the u.s. voted in elections for the very first time. today the voter registration process in the united states is still one of the biggest barriers to casting a ballot. for all intents and purposes, registration should be a certain process and what purports to be the strongest democracy in the world. however many states actively make it difficult, particularly for the hardest to reach potential voters. in some states officials removed voters from the rolls without their knowledge between elections. state officials claimed they are cleaning up registration rolls of those who haven't voted in years, maybe people have died or moved. but when the process is done, often improperly, it purges real living voters. that isn't the weight has to be. in 2020, 90% of the eligible populations of the united kingdom and canada and sweden and slovakia were registered to vote. that here in the great united states of america, a mere 69% are registered to cast a vote in our elections based on 2022 census data. more than a quarter of eligible citizens who could legally vote in this country cannot, because they aren't registered to do so. and as if there weren't enough obstacles, some red states are making it yet harder by targeting the crucial voter registration and outreach efforts, the same ones they backed to the suffrage and civil-rights movements. in florida, a law says if any third party voter registration group employs people who have been convicted of a felony or are not u.s. citizens, the group will be fined $50,000, to make sure that you heard me correctly, this isn't a fine for a felon, or for an immigrant trying to vote, it is punishment for simply helping eligible voters to register to vote. a judge blocked portions of the law this month but outreach groups still say it has a direct effect on their operations. think about that, someone commits a crime and after having paid their debt to society for doing so they want to help others do their civic duty and we punish that. and in missouri a new law bans compensation for those who register voters and requires that anyone who helps register more than 10 voters must also prove that they themselves can legally vote by completing paperwork through the secretary of state's office. that information becomes public which raises levasy concerns for many people. violators will be slapped with a criminal penalty. several groups sued missouri over this law so it is on hold until the proceedings play out. in kansas it is now a felony if anyone registering voters in person -- impersonates or is assumed to impersonate an election official. you wonder why this is a problem, because people should not be impersonating election officials, right? here's why it is a problem. one group in kansas had to stop operations entirely because they feared voters they assisted could assume that they are volunteering election workers which would be an easy mistake and terminal records for volunteers was not an acceptable risk they were willing to take. these might seem like silly laws that only affect little volunteer groups, but it is so much more than that. the states are making it harder for their own citizens to access the ballot box by purposely making it more inconvenient for outreach groups to mobilize, assist and register voters. and we are all worse off for that. the right to vote is the number one pillar of democracy and yet year after year, i stand here and tell you about the new and creative ways in which elected officials are trying to rollback that right. getting out the vote is beneficial to all americans and to all political parties. it should be simple and celebrated. the fact it is not is simply un- american. un- american. medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. it's time we all shine. talk to a healthcare provider about nurtec odt from pfizer. my frequent heartburn had me taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. we all need fiber for our digestive health, but less than 10% of us get enough each day. good thing metamucil gummies are an easy way to get prebiotic, plant-based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as 2 cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies. the easy way to get your daily fiber. we have -- 300 palestinians have been killed in the israeli raid to say four hostages. the idf launched one of its bread -- bloodiest rage at the refugee camp in central gaza. israeli forces rescue four hostages taken by hamas on october 7th but killed at least 274 palestinians and injured more than 400 according to the ministry of health in gaza. images from the scene are extremely hard to watch. i have to warn you that what you are about to see is disturbing. after israel is air and ground assault, victims were taken to two hospitals were overwhelmed staff can be seen dealing with the carnage. civilians gathered morning the undress an icy bull dead. there is much more footage of palestinians run across the streets but it is not something we are going to show you. it is too horrifying to show. the attack brings the death toll in gaza two over 37,000 people. we know the united provided intelligence in support of israel's operation to rescue the hostages yesterday according to a u.s. official with knowledge of the measure. according to the washington post, the material included overhead imagery. joining me as an independent journalist based in israel with two decades of experience but -- experience covering the conflict . tell me what is going on, four hostages rescued is a major win for prime minister regimen netanyahu on the eve of more -- or the day of a potential major threat to his own government. how are people feeling, and what is going on in israel right now? >> reporter: will that is the big question today, because a member of the opposition has been a member of the war cabinet, since mid-october, was supposed to hold a press conference, and resign from the government yesterday because he had given netanyahu a deadline of a three-week deadline to come up with a plan for the day after the war. which netanyahu has obviously not done, including following major entreaties from president biden. he rescheduled oppressive or today. what is expected is for him to lead. it won't immediately threaten netanyahu's coalition because he was never part of the coalition, he was always part of the opposition. but it will, i think it is likely to increase the pressure on netanyahu. i'm not sure that the hostage rest you -- rescue, i'm not sure it is going to help netanyahu. the protest against netanyahu last night were definitely not smaller and not less determined than all of the other protest have been. and he appears, as superficial as it is, it appears he mishandled this rescue. netanyahu has been almost invisible to israelis since the start of the war and yesterday, his office released, on saturday, the jewish holy day, something like 35 press releases. it was kind of, it made him look almost too eager to get credit and it did not work for him in the way that he thought it would. >> talk to me about the peace process that you and i have been talking about, and the world has been talking about. it's been over a week since joe biden announced it, which was unusual, and there seems to be a great deal of pressure. and secretary blinken is on his way to the middle east. on his release and on hamas to say this is a good deal. the point is that four hostages were released yesterday and that is excellent. every last hostage remaining alive can be released, in a deal and there seems to be pressure being put on both processes to do that. what is your sense of it? is the deal real and possible and what are the impediments to getting it done? >> i'm going to say something risky, i think that the deal is real, i think that the president decided to announce it very strangely last week and israeli, he presented it that way and that netanyahu has never denied it. even though he's doing everything to wiggle out of it. and i think that the principal impediments, as different as they are, and i'm not comparing them. but the principal impediments are the government of israel and the leadership of hamas. who each, at this point, are playing for survival basically and not playing for the interest of their own people at all. >> i think you're right, we are not comparing them but we are saying they are boast disinterested in the solution because it will end them. i think it is interesting however, this development, where qatar is floating a rumor, they have not officially said it but they are floating a rumor that we might cut you guys off. you are not worth the trouble. being a sponsor of or supporter of or mediator of hamas in this process, qatar has said it might be harming us more than it is hurting us. or hurting more than it is helping us. >> right, i think that atari's have been quite open about that for a few months. i think we are able to successfully parlay the sponsorship of hamas into becoming this international mediator and they want to keep that status much more than they want to keep hamas. so it is kind of a win-win to show the united states we are on your side, we are putting pressure on them. on the other hand, basic early getting rid of people that have become a problem. the issue is, i haven't heard any serious analyst of the qatar/hamas relationship tell me that they think it can work hear in other words the political leadership of -- it could be kicked out of doha and a scandal could be made of it. i'm not sure that is going to persuade the tunnels of gaza to say yes to the deal. >> notably, -- has spoken this weekend it didn't say no. the two notable things is that netanyahu is squirming, -- is not saying yes but no one has given a definite no and i will hang onto any threat of optimism i can get out of this situation. thank you, my friend. growing backlash against the biden administration over the president's controversial immigration crackdown. i will talk to two of the smartest people i know on immigration policy about whether it will work and how it is plating -- playing politically. that is coming up next. next. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some... and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? 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uncertainty. hidden fees, surcharges... who knows what to expect! turn shipping to your advantage. keep it simple...with clear, upfront pricing. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ the biden administration is facing backlash for an negative action on immigration being compared to asylum restrictions that were enacted by donald trump. the action gets by the broad power to temporarily shut down the southern boarder when it is overwhelmed and puts a cap on how many migrants can claim asylum between ports of entry. according to the washington post, migrants have already been turned away on the prices -- basis of these restrictions. democrats lined up between biden and leadership signal support but immigration continues to be a driving wedge among democrats. in a press conference after the announcement progressives went after biden. >> what we see today is a disappointment. and from what we know, it is not going to make the situation at the border materially better. >> i am profoundly, profoundly disappointed in this executive order. >> we have to remember that the victims of this policy will be the innocent. >> with all due respect mr. president, we should not be unearthing policies of the last administration. we must lead with compassion, not cruelty. i urge the white house to immediately reverse course and work with us to build a just immigration system. >> as you heard, many have compared biden's executive action to similar ultimately futile attempts by the trump administration to restrict asylum and it bears some truth. they utilized the same legal clause, section 212 f of the american -- migration and nationality act. trump tried to use it on asylum claims that the mexican border but it was struck down in court. the aclu argued the case and plans to take biden to court over the executive action as well. that is because the right to seek asylum is enshrined in both u.s. and international law. and the united states, the refugee act of 1980 rated the current basis for asylum, but the right to asylum was truly birthed out of world war ii after which it was included in the united nations universal declaration of human rights. joining me as kaitlyn dickerson, reporter and future -- feature writer. she is a contributor and author of book defectors, rights of the latino far right and what it means for america. that book will be out in september and we are getting her back to talk about it when it comes out. welcome to both of you. both of you on social media emphasized a crucial fact and distinction about asylum, as this was announced. it is not a loophole, some publications described it as a workaround to regular immigration, so let's clear the air. asylum is a separate process that people are entitled to, not a loophole. >> absolutely, you said it correctly, every single human being has a legal right to seek asylum. if i may, i'm going to read something quickly because this will illuminate what we are talking about. we should enforce our immigration laws with dignity, not try to turn away those in poverty. do you know who tweeted that in 2019? >> hooted? >> that was joe biden. in 2019, that is exactly what joe biden was saying, essentially what you articulated in your introduction. what happens if you're trying to turn away migrants, what happens if we create the scenario? the following. lives are in the hands of cartels, the cartels will be able to hold asylum seekers hostage, asylum seekers will be exposed to violence, to sexual violence, many families have to be sleeping in tent cities. families will be hungry. there will be worse conditions and many seekers will be repatriated to countries that are death sentences. so i think that the administration was clear, because they've been making statements for many, many years at this point, that what is happening is not just legally dubious, but morally, more than anything, the morality is where we should be questioning. why now, when they know what this is going to create. >> kaitlyn, help me understand how this is similar to or different from donald trump's attempts to limit asylum. >> so this porter van, if you will, is more nuanced and limited, than those we saw donald trump, when he was president, put into effect. so unaccompanied minors are exempt. and there are also, victims of severe torture are exempt. but importantly, there are opportunities for border patrol agents to say, for whatever reason we are overwhelmed because of operational capacity, we are going to hit pause on this policy. that is built into it. will those limitations actually make a meaningful impact? probably not. particularly the last one, the folks working at the border tended to be the most overwhelmed and frustrated with the people they are dealing with. so the idea that they may say, let's hit pause and give more people access to asylum in a way that is going to slow down our processes. is not particularly likely. these nuances and specificities are important to point out, as is the fact that overall, this will send a message that reinforces, it is viewed as one that reinforces donald trump's ideas about asylum and about the border. that asylum in and of itself is a lawbreaking act, even though we know it is not true. and also that we are being invaded, and that immigrants need to be stopped from entering the country. that is what this man, the message that the ban seems to be sending, rather than talking about the recent economic consensus, that have come up where economists are saying that a big part of the reason the u.s. is doing so well is the cause of immigration. you are not hearing that from the administration or from democrats right now. >> we have all talked about this a lot. the economics prove their case, and when we say there is a crime wave that comes from undocumented immigrants, it is not only not kind of true, it is entirely false. the disincentive to commit a crime if you are undocumented immigrant is huge. because you get deported. but talk to me about that because you are talking about a moral obligation we have. we are also talking about a legal obligation with respect to asylum seekers. that it is outweighed by people in american cities saying, this is not my problem. if they are going to be stuck in cartels will control them and they are sexually abused and they go back to their own countries, my problem is my city that is invaded by illegals, who are committing crime and taking jobs and driving down wages. zero of which is true. >> to your point, is outweighed by the policies and when the administration is making these decisions, the politics, it is what is in their heads. and here's the bottom line, you cannot out trump trump when it comes to immigration and the border. that is never going to be a winning argument. you cannot ever be to the right of trump and expect that you will be able to score any form -- any form of political points. the one thing trump has done extremely well is inject fear mongering that you described. inject the xenophobia, the anti- immigrant sentiment inside the american consciousness to the point that all the numbers culminate into what we are seeing, which is the republican party where over 50% of those numbers believe in the right replacement theory. you have 50% of american voters in this country that want to make it harder, not easier for asylum-seekers to have the legal right to seek asylum to the point that yes, even among some voters they are starting to warm up to the idea of math deportations and the wall and a difference between them and us. so if the question is, politically, how can you counter trump, let's go back to 2020. because it worked well in 2020 for the administration, the idea that immigration was a motivating issue for him. it was an inspiring issue for him because he was able to articulate with oral clarity, the difference between what is humanity and human policies and donald trump's cruelty. that is what is missing right now, the idea that you will never be able to witness -- win this argument and inching toward the right will get you closer to that finish line. >> you and i have talked about this idea that asylum is legal and protected. you have numbers, i don't know if you've got updated numbers because we've been talking about for so many years that people claim asylum and they are entered into a process. it is not a quick process, not an easy process. it is an overwhelmed process but in theory, if they are judged to be legitimate asylum- seekers, they go through a hearing. in fact, most people coming across the southern boarder do not succeed in their asylum requests. but at least in theory it is supposed to be a process. that processes overwhelmed because the system is overwhelmed, because there's not enough people. what does a real solution look like, that if you take politics out of it and say we have an issue at the southern boarder, what does solving it look like? >> i think a solve looks like immigration system that distributes, based on the start of the world today, not based on the state of the world in the 1980s. you have people coming to the united states for entirely different reasons and importantly, for multifaceted reasons. one of the things i have heard from the biden administration when i speak with them about what they are thinking, what the approach is, is that there's emphasis on wanting to distinguish -- we have people coming to the border, to -- who is an economic migrant and who is a legitimate refugee. this, i think, if i may, is outdated thinking. because i have been interviewing people, making these journeys for more than 10 years now and the reality is that people who are fleeing violence and persecution need a job and a lot of times, vice versa, the opposite is also true. so trying to sort of sort people like crayons, it doesn't really seem to be getting to the reality. the reality is that migration across the darien gap is up this year. last year, more than half 1 million people crossed the garrett -- the darien gap, the stretch of land, to walk from south america to central america to the united states. panama is anticipating 7000 people this year and most people who cross the darien gap eventually get to the united states. order numbers right now are not particularly high, but a lot of people are marooned in mexico, that is part of why the biden administration put this policy into place, to prevent another uptick in a border crossing before the election. they are coming and they are coming from multifaceted reasons. but they just don't slot well into policies written in an entirely different era. so we have to update the law and face the reality of, the circumstances that are leading people to flee today. and a lot of people don't succeed, that asylum does have a high standard and yet we do have case law that says that people who have been targeted by gangs, qualify for asylum. women who have been targeted violently in countries that experience high rates of -- do qualify for asylum. so it is not as if there is no room in the law. for these cases to succeed. a lot of times the numbers are inflated of those who don't win cases because rulings come down at people are not in court so that is an important caveat to keep in mind for people. but we've got to update the law in a way that faces the circumstances that people are considering when they decide to come to the united states today. and the that what we have, is a policy that i think is trying to keep biden in office long enough, to overcome the election in november. and then they will say, turn toward larger issues. but will it be too late and the ideas that paula talked about will be infused into the debate that you cannot turn back the clock. >> we have not had a proper debate about this, since before i had hair, the last time we were talking about immigration the right way. i appreciate this conversation. it has made us all smarter. we will be right back. back. l . their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. 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