Hi, everybody. Its thursday. Its 4 00 in new york. It is also day 18 of the people of the state of new york vermont donald trump, the expresident s former Attorney Michael Cohen is just off the Witness Stand. The jury is done with their service for the day. Prosecutors and attorneys for the expresident are dealing with the all important question of what happens next. Its happening right now. A hearing over what the defenses case will look like and if they will make a case, if they have a case to present the updates from that hearing that is happening as we meet well bring them to you right away. All this is in the wake of a rather desperate and uneven attempt to undercut Michael Cohens credibility. It was to be generous, hit and miss, defense attorney todd blanche had a Second Chance at cross examining Michael Cohen after a day of rest yesterday. He moved around from topic to topic so quickly that todd blanche decided that todd should apologize to the jurors who would decide Donald Trumps fate. He said, quote, sorry, were jumping around so bit. He tried to use cohens words against him. Including cohens fiery comments criticizing donald trump, things he said on his podcast, as well as Michael Cohens admission that he lied to congress, to which Michael Cohen pointed out it was all in service of donald trump and done in coordination with an attorney for donald trump. Todd blanche also tried to make cohen out to be disgruntled and angry about trump not taking him to the white house. It earned him the 24 objections from prosecutors, the vast majority of those were sustained by the judge. And through it all, cohen proved himself a very wellprepared and unflappable witness. During one tense moment, blanche did man to undermine one part of the testimony pfs. It was not significant to be you have discussed here. We checked our transcripts, but it was a piece of testimony from Michael Cohen on direct about a Phone Call Cohen said was made in the days before he paid Stormy Daniels 130,000 in hush money. Cohen said he told trump about the payment, but blanche today Kplam Clinton campaigned that cohen was talking to Keith Schiller about being prank called by a 14yearold before cohens crossexamination at the very start of court today, there was a lengthy side bar. It included a complaint from the District Attorneys Office about trumps allies muscling around in court. We on this program referred to it as the red tie brigade. The prosecutor asked they not with allowed to file in during the middle of Court Proceedings arguing that witnesses and jurors can see it. Today a whole new group of Trump Sycophants appeared in court including several of his fellow coup plotters, Jeffrey Clark was free. So was matt gaetz. So we start with legal analyst andrew weissman. He joins us after spending the morning in the courthouse also pack from the court is Investigative Reporter susan craig. Also former prosecutor charles coleman. Were going to start as we always do with msnbcs Vaughn Hillyard outside the courthouse for us. Vaughn hillyard, lets start with whats right now. Do you have any insights with whats being discussed with the judge . Reporter theres currently with the jury having already been dismissed. Theres now a conversation, like one this morning that started for 20 minutes in private, where there was discussions over the extent to which previous trials, previous information about Michael Cohen could be brought before the jury. Theres currently deliberation over the extent to which there are questions, as im trying to pull up in raem realtime, i got lost here for a moment. This is a little bit where were getting into the weeds here. Our own producer inside is noting that this is where were at late points in this trial. And literally as we thought that maybe today would be the day that they would finish the crossexamination of Michael Cohen, you now have a moment here where theres lastminute negotiating over what can be brought before this jury ahead of what is now going to be a threeday weekend for them. Just take us through what is expected to happen. The crossexamination is not over. It picks up again on monday. Then there would be a redirect. So the prosecutors are taking notes of any i think we should say were all grown ups. Were not going to grade on a curve. Todd blanche seemed to have made one good point about Michael Cohens direct testimony about this phone call from october 24th. But the prosecution preparing and taking notes on anything. What is your sense of how long that will be, the redirect, the chance for prosecutors to go back and talk to Michael Cohen after hes been cross examined for three days . Reporter i think it will really depend after this crossexamination completes the extent to which they feel Michael Cohen was able to share a story with the jury that was compelling, believable, and do they need to try to fix some of the stories. Particularly, that October 24th Phone Call between Keith Schiller and donald trump. Lets also be clear here. Going into that lunch break, thats where the October 24th Phone Call was called Into Question by todd blanche. Whether those Text Messages would suggest that the conversation between Michael Cohen and Keith Schiller were Something Different than what Michael Cohen testified on monday to that conversation being. The one part about this is that were looking this afternoon, what other parts of Michael Cohens story would be called Into Question. There were six other phone calls in October Of 2016 that Michael Cohen testified to this jury about. In which he says that donald trump was giving directives to him to complete that 130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels. You didnt hear any questioning about the six other phone calls. You havent heard questioning about the august 2015 conversation at trump tower. You didnt hear any questioning ab the 201 meeting, three days before inauguration, where after Alan Weisselberg and Michael Cohen scratched down on paper how he was going to be reimbursed and that meeting that says took place in which donald trump aprued how the Reimbursement Checks were going to get back to hill. We didnt hear any questioning about that story. You also didnt hear any questioning about the february 8th, 2017 meeting in the oval office in which Michael Cohen says he talked to donald trump about getting the assurance he would get those 11 checks over the course of the year 2017. So theres much of the story that Michael Cohen told this jury on monday and tuesday that under crossexamination, he has yet to be questioned about. A lot is hanging on that October 24th Phone Call being called Into Question. And Michael Cohen when he was asked about how he could recollect the specific phone calls, when he had 1,400 calls a month at that period of time, these were really important phone calls. I have been telling the story for six years and for six years my story has not changed. Its not changing today. It seems that all of the efforts to smear Michael Cohen are a bull work against todd blanche is doing. They elicited from hope hicks that he wasnt the kind of guy to pay out of pocket for anything. Michael cohen didnt have a leash long enough to buy his own cup of coffee. He got evidence from every witness that Michael Cohen never would have spent enough money. He didnt have a budget to buy lunch. Are you reading from my noets with that is the script that is going to be flipped in summation. You already know the status is on that. But its a duck on the june bug. They are on that. They know thats why hope hicks said this is supposed to be Michael Cohen out of the goodness of his heart did this. So they are going to say, look for all of as being, thats one more reason. As Michael Cohen testified, he said i told him not just because i wanted credit. Thats what the reel rules are, but he wanted to get repaid. If they want to get repaid, you need to tell him. They are going to have to come up with a different theory. He did this as an investment the to get good with trump and see if he bring him to the white house. And that when that didnt happen, he was so angry that he was only the personal council to the president of the United States. As lawyer, im not sympathetic to that story. Gee, im only going to be the personal counsel to the president. These are the the cream of the crop. This is Michael Cohen. So this is disparity. And so thats their big problem is sort of taking small pieces and stringing together a narrative that actually holds water. And i think thats why vaughn is so right to say, look, how does what happened, lets think about it analytically. How does that explain everything . And even the October 24th Call where there was this good reason to think that something came up about this harassing call, this is not an either or. You can walk and chew gum. That isnt a chot cha. Also, thats not the most important call. One of the most important calls is the two calls with donald trump on the 26th of october, where he says, yes, go ahead and make the payment. We cant delay anymore. Bless you. Its pollen season here. Everything happens here on live tv. What is your sense of the dog that hasnt barked yet . Michael cohen hasnt fallen apart. He hasnt melted. He hasnt stood up and screamed. Michael cohen has kept his you know what together under a cross so bad that the person carrying it out apologized to the jury in front of the jury. We did hear Michael Cohen yell once this morning. It was during a recording. It was the first time the jurors have heard the other side of Michael Cohen. But he has really kept it together under pressure. Especially today, i maybe have a little take on calling balls and strikes in court today, and i think both things can be true. We should talk about that, but i also think that they did some damage to Michael Cohen today. They spent i dont know how many hours this morning going through his lies. Its points to where are they going, they were not just minor lies they were lies under oath, just like hes under oath now. They lead up to the call. It casts doubt on the credibility of the call. He is a minute and 36 second call he places to Keith Schiller. And right before that, hes not just getting one harassing the call. Hes getting multiple harassing calls from an unknown number. One person the forgets to hide the number. He gets the number. He has a long back and forth with the person saying, the person is 14 years old allegedly, we dont know this for sure. We dont know whats going on here. The person is im really sorry. Mike sl like im going to sick the Secret Service on you. And they have a full exchange. So he wasnt a protectee of the Secret Service. This is the threat. He the calls Keith Schiller. In call, he managed to achieve both to relay all this information about the Harassing Phone Call to Keith Schiller, and then he manages to get through to the president and relay the information about the payment to stormy has been made. That could have happened, but i felt it was effective that they cast some doubt on it. But to vaughns point, even if they did, theres so much more evidence that they havent even brought up. Most of thes crossexamination has simply been a Character Assassination of Michael Cohen. They havent spoken to so much of the evidence already. It looks like they are wrapping up. So i think they are hoping this one shot they think is effective will cast down on everything. Im skeptical of that, but i did think today they got a hit in its not a knockout, but it was a hit. We say every day we have no idea whats landing with the jury. I have been on a jury two times. I only speak as a former juror. Sometimes what youre experiencing is agitation that youre still there. Sometimes youre riveted. We have no idea. I want to ask you about something david kelly said on this program, that he has put up witnesses and i think he was quick to say Michael Cohen isnt that. But once a case has been established to the degree that this case has been established through documents, through witnesses very friendly and affectionate toward the defendant, you were in his example schizophrenic drug addict, theres a corroborator. So the mission itself stepping back of destroying, smearing and maligning a witness who the prosecution on direct was pretty thorough in indicting his past conduct, Incluing Everything Todd Blanche went over today, the lies to congress, the guilty pleas, i think the prosecution had dealt with most of those chapters of Michael Cohens life on direct. I think the prosecution has al the president ial space to make this case not about Michael Cohens testimony, given Everything Else they have presented on their case in chief. Theres so much other evidence they can rely on in terms of summation where you dont have to put Michael Cohen at the center in terms of his credibility and everything he talked about. Theres enough other witnesses who provided evidence and testimony that has placed Michael Cohen in the room, thats made him an actor such that it corroborates his account of what things are and you dont have to take it firsthand if you think hes a scum bag or unbelievable or what have you. Any prosecutor particularly at the state level has dealt with unsavory witnesses that we wish we had alternatives for. And you dont. And so the way around that is to focus on the evidence that works for you and the witnesses that arent as problematic to make your case. They can easily do it. I think that the defense in terms of where this sort of punch today landed, its not about quantity. Its about quality. Its about the heft of the hit that they made in terms of the prosecutions case. I would agree with sue. This October 24th Phone Call is not something to sort of gloss over and miss. But to vaughns point, and vaughn is correct, when you step back, you still have to answer the question to the jury, does this still make sense in terms of the overall narrative that you are trying to get the jury to buy. If youre the defense, to andrews point, are you going to try to say Michael Cohen did all this out of the goodness of his heart. He was still personal attorney to the president of the United States of america. Hes lying about everything. Thats a lot for the jury to sort of process in one sitting. I do think, and this is important, as we sit and have conversations about the defense and their strategy, their strategy doesnt have to be as well defined as the prosecution because all they are trying to do in any realm that they can is create reasonable doubt. I do think theres a conversation to be had about whether the inconsistency or perceived inconsistency about this conversation creates reasonable doubt in the minds of a juror. So its important to understand the defenses line, it doesnt have to be straight forward. It can be all over the place, because all they are trying to do is poke a hole. I would just say as a former juror, if i sat there for 14 19 days and there was evidence he was innocent or guilty hinged on the October 24th Call, i probably wasnt going to go with guilty in the first place. What is your sense of what else he has . We learned that he plans to be done monday before the morning break. So this was it. Probably either his second best shot or sort of beginning of the end. I dont know how much time there is monday before the first morning break. I think theres a question. Does he go back to the morning of october 26th when donald trump and Michael Cohen had had two different phone calls lasting several minutes before cohen went and set up an account at First Republic to begin that wire transfer. Is he going to ask about the october 28th phone call and the 11 00 a. M. Hour after he finalized the Nondisclosure Agreement with Stormy Daniels through Keith Davidson. Those are outstanding questions. This story will come through Closing Arguments. As i learned from andrew weissman, its the job of the prosecution to prove the defendants guilt. At the psalm time, the defense for donald trump has yet to provide an alternative story or an alternative timeline to the events of the prosecution that has detailed in Chronological Order the defense team, they have not provided for this jury a more specific timeline of when donald trump did, in fact, become familiar with this alleged arrangement of 130,000 from Michael Cohen to Stormy Daniels. Was it in early february in 2018 after the Wall Street Journal wrote about it . Those are some of the outstanding questions that frankly the jury and Closing Arguments when they are looking at the two side storylineses, they are different. Because they havent answered those questions. His Defense Attorneys havent tried to pave their own clear version of events either. So on that point of vaughns, to the defenses story, he didnt have sex with Stormy Daniels. He did make every single decision. He did require his fos to haggle down every single bill and he did pay more than two times the reimbursement. And didnt take any negative actions with respect to weisselberg and cohen. To his other point, cohen is in the fold until 18. The idea is this has happened behind his back, which we know from everyone is not supposed to happen. And as Michael Cohen had repeatedly said today, if i did it that, i would be fired. So this is all happening the story is happening behind his back and he did not know about it. And weisselberg and cohen, according to hope hicks, thank god michael did this. This isnt what did you do and i cant believe you passed these checks to me and i didnt know what i was signing, and im paying you twice as much money as i should be, and you never told me. And i did it 12 times. Im now on record saying i reimbursed Michael Cohen for payments to a porn star. It sounds like he hasnt admitted that. The narrative is going to be difficult. I wanted to just raise one thing because this is definitely like you always tried your last case. This is going to be the mueller investigation, but todd blanche did a better job today. With respect to the testimony where Michael Cohen lies in front of congress and the lies are distancing donald trump from the moscow tower. He lies about the times that he talked to trump about building a trump tower. He says three before congress. Theres reasons why. And he the wants to make it earlier. Hes trying to be like dont worry. Not during the campaign. It was much the mall smaer. It was like earlier and little. And todd blaunch goes to that and you submitted a twopage document. This wasnt your Spur Of The Moment tail light. And Michael Cohen on cross, you shouldnt be bring out bad facts, says, yes, thats not just my statement. That false statement that i admitted was perjury, which by the way could only have been done for the president , Michael Cohen had zero interest personally in that. That was done by a joint Defense Committee that included the president of the United States lawyer. That was like putting if you want the costello, whats happening behind the scenes, what are the lawyers doing, he just directly implicated donald trump in that scheme. Back to the narrative, if the narrative is that he rolled like a mob boss, cohen gave another example of how he did that. So i dont know if you saw this, did we show that . Trump is talking, well tell you about it on the other side of a break. An update from court. Proceedings are done for the day. Michael cohen will be back monday for the end of cross. What we expect to be redirect. The prosecution will have an opportunity to do that if they choose. Still to come for us, a gaggle of House Republicans and even an indicted coup plotter today felt the that the presence at the criminal trial of their dear leader was more important than any work they had lined up in washington, d. C. How their presence was received, when our special coverage of the first ever criminal trial of an american x president continues after a short break. Dont go anywhere. R a short bre. Dont go anywhere. My Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, ive bee telling everyone. Baby liberty. Oh baby liberty. How many people did you tell . Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. I brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. Ugh. Here, ill take that. Woo hoo ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. And a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. my daughter and i finally had that conversation. Oh, no, not about that. About what comes next in life. For her. I may not be in perfect health, but i want to stay in my home, where my family visits often and where my memories are. I can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant and stylist, someone to help me live right at home. Lifes good. When you have a plan. Norman, bad news. I never graduated from med school. What . But the good news is. Xfinity mobile just got even better now, you can automatically connect to wifi speeds up to a gig on the go. Plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. I gotta get this deal. Thats like 20 a month per unlimited line. I dont want to miss that. Thats amazing doc. Mobile savings are calling. Visit xfinitymobile. Com to learn more. Doc . You need to know that mr. Trumps personal lawyers reviewed and itted my edited my statement to congress before i gave. To be clear, mr. Trump knew of and directed the Trump Moscow Negotiations throughout the campaign and lied about it. He lied about it because he never expected to win. He also lied about it because he stood to make hundreds of millions of dollars on the moscow real estate project. And so lied about it too. Mr. Trump made clear to me through his personal statements to me that we both knew to be false and through his lies to the country that he wanted me to lie. He made it clear to me because his personal attorneys reviewed my statement before i gave it to congress. So i wonder if you think the that will come up on redirect. I dont know that theres anything to clean up. Crossexamination when youre a prosecutor, your heart is in your throat. You want to see and be prepared the witness. Is there something you dont know . How is the witness going to do. Its scary and they could be nervous and cave. They are humans. And one of the tricks of that Defense Lawyers do to try to shake someone from a story is the person gives an answer and say that didnt happen. And are you telling me, and youre like, okay, i dont think it happened. Its normal reaction. So what youre doing is youre taking detailed notes and youre keeping a line down this side of your pad. Over here, you write down issues that you might want to clean up. And then the Judgment Call is doing some triage as to whats really matters. Its usually a mistake to just go down a rabbit hole. You sort of want to figure out if wrour going to doed redirect. What are the key things you want to clean up. Is there such a misimpression or so misleading. Here, cohen cleaned it up. Oh, that false statement. That was just a misstep by blanche. So i dont think thats one. There was one where they tried to make it sound like it was because cohen lied to the judge about accepting responsibility. That that is the reason that the judge at the sentencing of Michael Cohen gave him a lower sentence. Again, to go back to the case i last tried, i know that the main reason he would have gotten a lower sentence is that he fully cooperated with the special counsel mueller investigation. There were two cases. There was the Southern District case and the mueller case. He fully cooperated. We told the judge that. And everyone agreed he could get credit, which is what happens when you cooperate. So its not like he got credit for not cooperating, he got credit from the judge because he did cooperate. I guess whats curious to me and not being a lawyer, i have no idea what thought goes into a Defense Team Deals with what they have to work with. Whats so incriminating is the 12 pieces of paper. Its we know you dont put a criminal conspiracy on paper. But they did. And its got Chicken Scratch on it. Thats where they go with what they are rebursing with. Rudy giuliani is saying the money was funneled through Michael Cohen. We have a tape. Nothing that is incriminating and imperils donald trump legally has been any of the substance or tone or spirit or topic of the cross. Theres been powerful evidence. Its been in the 34 counts involved with the documents. The checks, the general ledger, and nothing has come up to question that at all yet. They do have to get to criminal intent. Its going to involve the conversations. Despite what happened today, theres still multiple corroborating witnesses who gave testimony coming into Michael Cohens. So when Michael Cohen talked, it was a very familiar story. They have not come back they have two things. They have not come back and really gone near any of this testimony about the heart of the matter. Be it the records or about the meetings that he had where he talked to donald trump. Just the one phone call. And i think thats important. And im also struck by i have been there every day. And i dont have a narrative yet of exactly how donald trump didnt know about this. We heard from one witness he was in the white house busily signing checks and wasnt really paying attention. With us that cuts across against so much evidence and just the man we know, the micromanager that is donald trump. We have heard maybe the weisselberg and cohen, but that doesnt have legs. You want to hear it. Were going into Closing Arguments. They dont have to have a narrative. Its the prosecutions burden to establish their case Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. And i think that has to be understood because big picture wise, the prosecution and the defense in this case have two very different goals. The prosecution is trying to persuade 12 jurors Beyond A Reasonable Doubt that donald trump is guilty. The defense is looking to get one jury who is not convinced Beyond A Reasonable Doubt to hold out. In fairness, they have given us strings of a defense. I would just like to hear of it more. I dont have the clarity you do. As a juror when you go in there with other people, you want to have a thing to hang whatever you decided to do. And i think thats maybe were talking past each other. You want to go in and defend where you come down on. I dont know they have given anyone a thing. I want to bring Vaughn Hillyard back in on this. A little bit of suspense. A little lack of clarity about who her talking about. Some of these organizations have reported that a lawyer whose name has come up, maybe that final witness, what is your sense of the one person that might be maybe the one witness that the Defense Calls if they do. Robert costello at the heart of the testimony on tuesday, in which Michael Cohen was articulating that costello, who was a trump allied lawyer back in 2018 and had a close relationship with trump, was in close contact with Rudy Giuliani, his friend. And Rudy Giulianis client was donald trump. And costello, who Michael Cohen says never entered into a formal legal arrangement with has publicly suggested over the last year that Michael Cohen had acknowledged that they were trying to extort donald trump, and that he was doing this not through Donald Trumps direction. And so costello has been refuted. This allegation by Michael Cohen directly here. And there are emails from 2018 that have already been entered into the record that show Robert Costello suggesting to Michael Cohen at a point right before he flipped, you could say, that suggesting that he had friends in high places. And telling him that he was in contact with his friend, who was in touch with his client, that meaning are Rudy Giuliani with donald trump. And this was all before Michael Cohen ultimately broke and began testifying under oath against donald trump. So Robert Costello has told tom winter that hes repaired to come testify, but at this point many time, hes not been asked to be here in Lower Manhattan at this point in time. And there is some expectation that the judge has indicated that both sides should be prepared to present their summations on tuesday, presuming they are done on monday. Hes also indicated he would like to get those summations done on the same day. Is that right . Reporter right. The crossexamination of Michael Cohen should end monday morning. And then youll have the summations. Theres some questions around wednesday is usually a day the court is not taking place. The court had had sought to bring the jurors together. There was at least one juror not able to make that happen. There will not be court on wednesday. Ask then thursday one of the jurors, its not clear, maybe an alternate, has to leave by 1 00 p. M. On thursday. So i know the idea was to hopefully avoid coming back after memorial day and allowing the jurors to go consider a verdict shortly after these Closing Arguments, but were looking at a very tight timeline next week, especially with the fact had that the prosecutions own witness is yet to finish questioning. And Robert Costello takes the stand. Just a few moments ago, todd blanche still did not shut the door on donald trump taking the stand himself. What to you make of all this sort of posturing . You discussed yesterday, i think with respect to the defendant not testifying, one, its legitimate to always make that decision late in the day to sort of make sure, but even if they know that its not going to happen, its useful to have the state be worrying about it. Because its going to eat up some of their time. Do they ever testify . Sometimes. This would not be the case. I dont knowst theres anyone who i heard anyone say it would be a good idea. That might be a universe of one, but the one being the person who could make the choice, which is donald trump. I dont think thats going to happen. With costello, its interesting just because i dont think hes on the defense witness list. So that raises some issues for the state as to youre supposed to have a list of who is going to testify. They would have to be a good reason why it was unanticipated. Im not seeing what that argument is, but i could be missing something that happened in the record that we havent seen yet. They have been talking about three witnesses, the general counsel of the the Trump Organization, they said, no, hes not testifying. That left two. One is an expert, and the other is donald trump. So i would be surprised if tell lo testified, just to remember he is the person who just before the case was indicted, you remember the delay in the indictment was that donald trump said i have somebody you need to talk to. And costello went into the grand jury and testified to the grand jury. Thats the defense. Because that means that the prosecution has had a really good preview of what he would say and has probably looked long and hard how to repute that. Right. Because whatever they do, the prosecution has a chance to cross him. The tables have turned. Because i remember at at time thinking why would he go to the grand jury when i keep that secret and use it at trial without ever told the prosecution having fwoen into the grand jury and told whatever story he told, that gives the prosecution a chance im not saying he lied to the grand jury. Im saying if the state thinks he did, they have a huge opportunity between a year ago when he testiied from the grand jury to investigate everything about it. So they will be ready for it. No one is going anywhere. Up next for us, trump got the band together again. Well talk with another journalist who had an inside look inside the courthouse this week. 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In court yesterday, i was sitting close enough i could look over trumps shoulder and see what he was reading. At one point, he was reading the quotes that these individuals were going through and making nations with a pen on the paper. Bl before or after . While testimony was going on. While Michael Cohen was testifying against him, he was actually going through and annotaing the quotes. That is a second time we have played that because its so mind blowing to me. Thafls contributing editor andrew rice on tuesday night on our special coverage. He joins us now. He just left the coverage. This was someone who covered trump for nine years, perhaps the most stunning thing hes done in court. Micromanaging what his surrogates were saying to get around the gag order because he couldnt. Explain. Reporter i think what hes doing is basically treating this like any other political event, like a Political Convention or Something Like that. He has surrogates this. Theres a message of the day. And he clearly is coordinating that message with them and making sure that they are communicating what he wants to commuicate. Communicating the things hes not allowed to communicate often times because of the restrictions under the gag order. Whats amazing to me is the irony in all this. This is a trial about crime he is committed in the process of Keeping Stuff that he, dth dths, thought would damage him politically out of the National Inquirer ahead of the 2016 president ial election. Now hes made it the center piece of his 2024 election to have all the people who want to be on the ticket come to his porn star hush money trial. What is sort of the broader take away from the spectacle . Reporter i think the broad er take away with regard to the politics of it is just how far the goalposts have moved in this country in terms of what we expect in terms of behavior of our president ial candidates. Im old enough to remember president s who were impeached for perhaps lesser offenses. Now we have one thats actually on criminal trial. It doesnt seem to be hurting him in the polls so far. Another thing he was doing in Court On Monday was actually perusing and holding up the New York Times battleground polls showing him ahead by 5 or 6 points in all these battleground states. So hes clearly sending a message that hes prepared possibly for a conviction and prepared to sort of take the verdict the voters of the American People. Thats everything that is going on outside. Take me inside the courtroom. What did you think of this weeks testimony starting with Michael Cohen still on direct, ask we have had an uneven, thats the most objective way to describe cross, an uneven crossexamination by trumps defense lawyer todd blanche. Reporter i will say that todays crossexamination was much more strong and concerted. I think there was an extremely much more, he laid some blows on cohen in a way he hadnt before. I think also the prosecution has done a really good job in keeping and making it so that the case doesnt depend solely on cohens word. Throughout his testimony, earlier this week on direct, he was primarily testifying about things that other people had already testified about. Things that there was corroborating evidence for, telephone calls, Text Messages and so on. So really what the prosecution is saying, and i think this is a typical defense tatic is they are saying you dont have to believe Michael Cohen. Just believe your eyes and believe your common sense about what happened here. We talked to david kelly earlier in the week about establishing enough context for that underlying crime of the motive being the election. That was earlier testimony. I think its a safe assumption we can expect to hear that in summation, which both sides should be prepared to deliver on tuesday. Is that a fair guess . Reporter yeah, i think that the underlying the prosecution has to prove that the records offense was committed in the course of kmuting some more serious crime. The more serious crime that they have really leaned into is a violation of election law of the New York State election law. So really what they have been trying to demonstrate throughout was was Donald Trumps motive in making these deals was to advance his political campaign, tofs silence these women that could have damaged his political campaign, and the defense, by contrast, has been trying to get Michael Cohen and others to talk about how much President Trump was motivated by his desire to protect his family, to keep these salacious allegations from getting out. The truth is probably a little bit of both. But i think that the prosecution has made a pretty strong case that the election was a major consideration, if not thee major consideration. Let me just ask you quickly about the notes trump was taking on the kwoets that his surrogates had been delivering outside the courthouse. Was the da in eyesight of that . Do you know if their team saw . They sought to protect these proceedings and enforce the gag order. Did anyone see what you saw from their side . Could you tell . Did they have a view of that . Reporter i dont see how they could have missed it. Because the lectern where the prosecutor was asking questions from is behind donald trump. And these werent it wasnt unintrusive. He reads things in 64point font or Something Like that. So if its easy enough for me to read it from three or four rows back, i think they must have seen what he was doing. But i think they are also not really trying to too hard to get him held in contempt at this point. I think they are happy where they are. My biggest chuckle of the week. Andrew weiss, thank you very much for joining us. Were going to sneak in a quick break. Well be right back. 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Its actually some hallway remarks that donald trump just gave. And i know he gives hallway remarks every day and a lot of its repetitive, but we listen. And theres a quote here that he stated that caught my attention. And this is the quote. Quote, i have the only illegal nda. Now, when we say that, quote, this became part of what he does when he reads others who are allied with him, his writings. That was the writing of Andrew Mccarthy in the National Review. Trump then stopped, looked up at the cameras and added in his own words, quote, i have the only Illegal Ndach and as far as my notes can tell, this is the first time donald trump has ever acknowledged this being his nda with Stormy Daniels. He in may of 218 in a tweet acknowledged there was an nda between Michael Cohen and between two parties, but he didnt explicitly say it was his. We did have testimony from david pecker two weeks ago saying that donald trump called him and referred to as our agreement with Stormy Daniels. But as far as my notes are and please anybody on the team here correct me i believe this is the first time, though, he has acknowledged this was an nda that he was a part of. Yeah, andrew, ive never heard him acknowledge that before. I havent either, and i havent heard what he he said, you know, today. I wonder if he might have been referring to the gag order as opposed to the underlying nda. There is this writing in it National Review defending the legality of ndas. But hes never acknowledged being under one. Absolutely. The ndas can be totally legal. There are components that actually at this trial there are components that probably arent okay, which is Michael Cohens provision that he added about the Million Dollar penalty. Keith davidson said that probably wouldnt hold up. But that is there are lots and lots of things that donald trump has said that are completely inconsistent with a defense. We pointed out his statements in california where he said i in fact reimbursed Michael Cohen for the hush money payments, which is completely at odds with todd blanches opening where he said this wasnt a reimbursement of a hush money payment. So this may be a continuation of that. My quick sort of take home today i thought on cross something that Michael Cohen did i thought was very understandable when the cross was raised about you had thousands and thousands of phone calls. He said, yes, and some of you them you dont remember exactly when they were but you remember the substance of it. And others you do remember everything about it because it was so significant. Its very humanizing about memory. Yeah, i think thats right. Everyone can relate to that. I dont remember what i led with yesterday, but there are conversations that stick with you. I also think youve got the banker and youve got pecker and got keith talking about how dire this situation was and how intense all these conversations were on this topic. Will you all be back same time same place tomorrow . Thank you. We cannot do this without you. Thank you so much for spending the hour with us. Up next for us the tantalizing prospect of donald trump testifying in his own defense in his first criminal trial. They have not closed the door to that yet. Another hour of news straight ahead. Dont go anywhere. F news straig ahead. Dont go anywhere. Lets get the rest of these plants in. Organic soil from miraclegro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. Good soil, and you get good results. This soil will blow you away. Its the Martha Stewart of soil. Life with afib can mean a lifetime of Blood Thinners. And if youre troubled by falls and bleeds, worry follows you everywhere. Over 400,000 people have left Blood Thinners behind with watchman. 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Hi again, everyone. Its now 5 00 in new york. But the question of will he or wont he, whether the expresident will take the stand in his own defense in his own criminal trial still looming. Last hour we learned a little bit more about the shape and direction of the defenses case in the election interference hush money criminal trial. After the jury was dismissed today there were deliberations over questions about testimony from a potential Expert Witness for the defense. Bradley smith, a former commissioner of the fec, who intends to testify about the federal statute governing Campaign Finance contributions, giving us a slight indication of what could be the defenses strategy moving forward. Meanwhile, Michael Cohen, the prosecutions last witness, was on the stand for hours again today. His second day of crossexamination by the defense team. Todays line of questioning by defense attorney todd blanche was stronger than his crossexamination of tuesday, which was basically not strong at all but still failed to deliver what any legal experts have described as a knock out punch. Todd blanche spent a lot of time today attempting to undermine Michael Cohens credibility leaving david frum of the atlantic to write this, quote, the Trump Defense is that everybody in the Trump Organization was a criminal except the boss. Michael cohen will be back on the Witness Stand on monday when we expect crossexamination to start in the morning and then end before the morning break. Judge juan merchan also instructed both sides to be ready for Closing Arguments next tuesday. This is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. Outside the courtroom for us nbc news correspondent Yasmin Vusubian is back. And david kelly, he served as the chief of the fdnys Organized Crime and terrorism unit. With me at the table Senior Executive editor for Bloomberg Opinion and nbc analyst tim is back. And Basial Michael is with us. These deliberations over what if any case the defense will put on. Its hard to say. So far what theyve appeared to do is what a lot of defense do is throw what you can against the wall and see what sticks. Again, what you only need to do here is only convince one juror. Unfortunately for them so far i havent seen anything come up in the course of this trial that i think would drive a reasonable juror to have much doubt about what happened here even with the crossexamination of Michael Cohen. I do think that, you know, putting the its interesting that the judge is permitting them to put on this quoteunquote Expert Witness. Its typically not you know, you dont put on a legal expert at trial. The legal aspect really goes for the judge to explain to the jury the relevant legal issues thin course of his charges. My guess is that judge merchan is probably permitting this to avoid an issue on appeal. But, again, i dont really see this i dont know what this expert is going to say, but i dont know that it really will move the needle much. It may muddy the waters a little bit if theyre not careful about limiting instructions, but i dont know if itll move the needle much because theres a difference in the requirements for federal law and state law, number one. And number two, the fact that the fec really in this case was not in any way an excullpation of the defendant in this case as it was a political decision where he had to split down what to do with the republicans and democrats and then you have some absentees. So i think that the fecs decision a nonissue. I dont think theyll get into it, but the legal issues, too, i think are barely irrelevant as we have different requirements under state law. And because it may not be a federal offense i think it is but maybe some problems with proving it. The state charges are different. David kelley if youre the prosecution dont you try to get the Sentencing Memo where donald trump is listed i think 34 times as individual one made relevant somehow . If youre going to talk about election crimes the federal system found donald trump an unindicted coconspirator in the investigation of Michael Cohens Campaign Finance violations. Doesnt that become central in the final throes of a criminal trial . I would love to be able to get that ip. Unfortunately, i dont know of an exception of the rules of evidence that would permit that. But that having been said mainly what has this trial been about . This trial has been about everything thats in that document, everything that this person number one did has come out through the course of the testimony. So they have essentially done that. And if it is really the focus of a particular federal document is not something thats really admissible at this trial. You know, tim, to davids point this is and i know the mission is different. Im not a lawyer but ive been in two juries. Its to give jurors some doubt to hold onto. This seems a weird thing to give them. I think what theyre betting in the crossexamination of Michael Cohen is if you undermine Michael Cohens credibility you undermine the whole case. And if the whole case rests on Michael Cohen alone that might undermine the strategy. Everything he said has been corroborated by other witnesses including hope hicks and Keith Davidson and david pecker and voluminous amounts of documentation. Yeah. And then i dont think they had an artful attorney representing donald trump. Remember todd blanche comes into this case through boris epstein. Boris epstein comes into trump world through eric trump. This is a series of fence posts recommending one another to donald trump. And he is so intent on judging people lie loyalty often rather than their skill sets he ends up with cminus people pretending their apluses. And he hasnt delivered an aplus examination. As we know the first day was a mess. Today he had a lot of powerful bits of evidence showing that Michael Cohen is a serial liar and a dissembler and he runs a very crazy podcast. Thats basically what you came out of this with. But he didnt weave that into a narrative for the jury to latch onto, he didnt tell a story. And i think a good Cross Examiner tells a jury a story they can attach themselves to as youre mentioning, and i dont see that. If were looking in terms of a hung jury, i dont see that happening but it could. Anything can happen. We say this once every hour we have no idea, we have no have no idea, we have no insight, no visibility, were not meant to. Yasmin, let me ask you something about what trumps team has done. They have viciously crossed Stormy Daniels, who was not an eyewitness who the crimes alleged, and Michael Cohen, who comes on at the end as basically a Human Corroborator for things the jurors have been shown with their own eyes. The 12 i thought the most powerful thing in his direct examination is everyone gets put up, this is check to you. Who signed it . Is it a fraudulent document, yes. This is a check made out to you is that a fraudulent document . Yes. 12 times. And just did it three. You can see theres some sort of wave they were able to create around Michael Cohen saying, yes, i lied. I was part of a lie, part of a coverup. They presented Michael Cohen on direct as a guy who wasnt just a liar but a guy who went to prison for lying. I was confused about what new ground todd blanche was trying to break to them. Well, thats why in direct, nicolle, we had gotten information especially from prosecutors they were going to stick with the documents. They knew from the get go and we all knew Michael Cohen had credibility issues. You rightly bring up the case of the ledgers, ininvoices, the 3 counts he was initially indicted for. Those are the things that make the prosecutions case. Its not necessarily Michael Cohens testimony. As tim said Michael Cohen is just corroborating all the testimony we have heard beforehand for the prosecution. Hes just corroborating so many of the documents we heard. You and have talked about exhibit number 35, how do you explain the First Republic Bank Document in which Allen Weisselberg scribbles on that Exhibit Grossing Up 120,000, 130,000, the 60,000 bonus, the 50,000 to red fish and the rest for taxes. The documents, the ledgers, ininvoices signed for checks by donald trump directly in the oval office will tell it story. Ill be interested to see what happens in redirect. That moment during crossexamination, they built this whole story about Michael Cohen being a liar. We all know this. As tim said this crazy podcast, they built that narrative of Michael Cohen. But that moment in which they talk about october 24th, the phone call made to Keith Schiller, Donald Trumps former bodyguard that lasted 90 seconds and he said youre lying about this phone call. Youre talking about harassing Text Messages with Keith Schiller. How can you basically talk about that along with Stormy Daniels in the same phone call . What they did not talk about and i imagine this is going to be brought up and clean this moment up in redirect october 26 two separate phone calls made that morning. One 90 seconds long, one 3 minutes long. That was the day money was transferred to Stormy Daniels. That was the day Michael Cohen testified to once again donald trump saying go for it, do it, get this thing over with. So i imagine that will also come up in redirect because there are a lot of outstanding issues that, again, go back to those documents that build this entire thing, nicolle, for the prosecution. Let me show all of you what alvin bragg said about the election interference piece of this narrative. It is often shorthanded to hush money as weve laid out in public court filings. The case is not the core of its not money for sex. We would say its about conspiring to corrupt a president ial election and then lying in new York Business records to cover it up. And so thats the thats the heart of the case as we laid out in court filings. We went back and watched that. Today after asking you on tuesday about the sort of underlying evidence that bumps these the Falsification Up from Misdemeanor Charges to felonies, i wonder when you hear that trump wants to bring in a Election Expert, what does that mean they might be concerned about . Yasmin you first, and i want to bring david kelley in on this as well. Reporter i think its concern about what the jury understands tuesday be election law. They want the jury to actually understand what it is that is being alleged here when it comes to influencing the election, right . Why they want to bring in this fec official. If you look at kind of the notes they really got into the weeds the last 30 minutes of court today. They talked about the obstruction submitted by the prosecution and defense here. And judge juan merchan said basically im going to go over this thing, im going to let you know where i stand on this when i go over Jury Instructions and whether you then think your Expert Witness who worked for the fec, his testimony would be mentioned. They mentioned it would be short testimony. He would take the stand and explain for the jury before they went into deliberations, and he would come off the stand. By the way, i think that indicates its likely the former president will not be testifying. Dont quote me on that, but it sounds as if were going into closings on tuesday. It doesnt sound like hes going to be testifying as of this moment. And we heard from the defense theyre going to give their final decision some time today. But theyre going to want to define for the zwraer and i heard this, by the way, from other legal experts by the way, nicolle, why the prosecution didnt necessarily bring up an Election Law Expert to get ahead of this as well. Its not necessarily surprising, but theyre wanting a jury to understand what it means for that larger crime. David kelley, the prosecution did bring the cspan i dont know if its the archivest, but the cspan official to show the tape of trump in his own words acknowledging the political damage he feared after the access Hollywood Tape came out. And hes very clear in his own words, you know, this will poison me, this will kill me, i couldnt win. What is your sense of and, again, i dont want to read too much into this, but if the defense is bringing on an Election Expert could it signal that theyre just trying to hedge around the misdemeanor bumped up to felony piece of this, that theyre concerned if a conviction comes . Yeah, i think what theyre trying to do is try to say from the federal Election Commission perspective its kind of the so what. What alvin bragg was talking about is exactly that, so what . We talked about in the early stages of this case one of the challenges for the prosecution is not just prove the false document. Thats kind of easy, but to prove the so what. What alvin bragg says the so what here is it was corrupting a president ial election, and the vehicle for that is something thats prohibited under New York State law, which is coming up with false Business Records. And so i think what the argument here from the prosecutions perspective is, okay, well, look, i dont really care what the fec says. Theres more than one way to skin the cat here. Theres more than one way to corrupt a president ial election. And what the defendant has done in this case is corrupt it under state law by falsifying Business Records, and thats the offense that were prosecuting. So i dont really care what the fec thinks because under their tent it may not be a violation of their regulations, but thats kind of immaterial because he still can violate the law and corrupt the president ial election. The so what of his whole case in a different way. And if you look at the story the prosecution has told from the very first witness who was david pecker, it was about a years long effort to corrupt the president ial election with the 2015 Trump Tower Meeting where Cohen September even a principal. Its pecker and trump creating a collaborative effort to plant negative stories about trumps rivals then in the republican primary, and they explain what they were. They were things embellish bide the National Enquirer but inspired by trumps political analysis. Ted cruz another, marco rubio another. Lets remember this is the same fec that decided to pass onto looking into the fact donald trump has channeled small dollar contributions into his Legal Defense payments. The fec has not enforced any kind of infractions that are glaring Campaign Finance violations for a long time. Its a pretty toothless agency, so the idea theyve looked at this and passed or they didnt see anything wrong here i think is just a straw horse. And on Everything Else that took place here, they were very aware of the election. They were very aware that everything that they were challenged by could derail trumps presidency, and its what motivated all of them. And it begins with the access Hollywood Tape, and it bleeds into mcdougal and Stormy Daniels and all the rest of it. Its interesting. As we talk about the fec, i think its important to note that there is a bit of history of this in new york politics, that in 2013 individuals connected to a Mayoral Campaign have actually gone to jail for the sort of shadow donations. And if you remember i think it was last year there are folks connected to the mayor of the city who were being arrested over these Campaign Finance issues. So it is its i imagine that the fec individual is there to kind of muddy the waters and say one is one is the federal, one is state, but alvin bragg is involved in that mayoral case, and so im sure that hes clear on where the law is and that there is precedent for what theyre actually taking donald trump to task for. You know alvin bragg, i mean what do you make of the case that has been presented and the missed opportunity and i guess the most generous way to describe todd blanches earliest hours of cross . Ive got to say for maybe all the conversation maybe not at this table but for all theether in the air so many questions about whether hes been up to the task, and it has been a near flawless i think prosecution, right . And it has exposed so much of as you were going back and talking about Defense Posts what it is to be in Donald Trumps orbit, that there are just people around who are far more performative than they are substantive. And alvin bragg and his team have proven to be far more substantive and courageous in this matter. I think the best evidence of that are the nuts who showed up to defend donald trump outside the courthouse because hes getting his butt kicked inside of it. Day 18 of the first ever criminal trial of an american expresident. Plus the return of the red tie brigade, those farright maga extreme republican allies of the disgraced expresident flocking to the courthouse again to spread disinformation about the case, potentially violating the gag order and subverting the rule of law. Also there today a major player in trumps 2020 coup plot, one Jeffrey Clark. Well get to that later in the broadcast. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Tinues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. What the Biggest Companies deliver is an exceptional customer experience. What makes it possible is unmatched connectivity and 5g solutions from tmobile for business. Tmobile connects 100,000 Delta Airlines employees, powers tractor supplys Stores Nationwide with reliable 5g business internet, and partners with Pga Of America on Game Changing innovation. This is how business goes further with tmobile for business. Kayak. No way. This is how business why would i use kayak to compare Hundreds Of Travel Sites at once . Kayak. I like to do things myself. I do my own searching. It isnt efficient. Use kayak. I cant trust anything else to do the job right. Aaaaaaaahhhh kayak. Search one and done. With absorbine pro, pain wont hold you back from your passions. Its the only solution with two maxstrength anesthetics to deliver the strongest numbing pain relief available. So, do your thing like a pro, painfree. Absorbine pro. Were back with yasmin, david, kim, and basil. Tim, you were in the courthouse today. Two things that people thought would happen that didnt, i mean Michael Cohen didnt blow up. Michael cohen was underestimated, and i know Michael Cohen is capable of a lot of outbursts but that he didnt have one. It was the defenses strategy and expectation i think that he would. And trump has seemed to land on a Coping Strategy of closing his eyes. Whether or not hes awake im not aware. Is that a weird thing . Can the jurors see him with his eyes closed . Not only are his eyes closed, hes sort of leaning back. I think in the early days of the trial people said he was asleep. He might have been, but you cant sleep for eight hours. Is he motionless . Hes motionless. He leans over to one of his lawyers. He perked up and eyes wide open when the cross of Michael Cohen began, but with a lot of the other witnesses he was just lying there slightly tilted back with his eyes closed. There it is, do we have that, the sketch . I thought hes just yeah, thats what he looks like. And i thought hes just going to nevernever land because he doesnt want to see the Porn Star Testifying against him and he doesnt want to see the turncoat inhouse lawyer testifying against him. Instead hes imagining hes on The First Tee at Beds Minister or on the beach at maralago or eating a cheeseburger in the triplex at trump tower. Hes doing any of these things that takes him to the happy place for him rather than whats going on in court. I think thats part of it. The other thing is donald trump is noticeably aged even since 2020, hes ea little more crooked back. Hes very gummy. Weve seen it in these rallies where he has nonlinear speeches and makes huge mistakes and goes off on tangents. So i also think hes aged. Thats a factor. And i think lastly this is a man and weve talked about this now for many years but hes been insulated from his own consequences since birth. So hes never really feared accountability. Ive been watching this and i wasnt sure this case. I thought this and i still think its the weakest of the four cases in terms of the legal existential threat. I think the other cases pose more of a legal threat in terms of the consequences. But as the case has proceeded on ive become more aware this could have a tougher outcome than i anticipated. And now ive been watching and sort of wondering is he thinking about the possible consequences here as we near the finish line and hes sitting there in his fugue state. David, theres been i think an admirable effort not to get ahead of the story, and i dont want to do that now. But we do know that judge merchan has told both sides to prepare to deliver their Closing Arguments on tuesday. Then the jury will deliberate, and that process how long that takes is up to them, not any of us. But what what does the end of the process look like . What should people expect . Well, look, i think theres some concern people expressed concern about Michael Cohen being the last witness. The government wants something wider. But we have yet to see the Redirect Examination here. Michael cohen has proven a good witness. I think on crossexamination theres a lot of givens here. You know what youre going to get in terms of information. You dont want to let the witness make your arguments. You want to elicit facts and you make the arguments. I think todd blanche is sort of stuck between the two places here. And once you mentioned a moment ago and the reason i raise this point you mention a moment ago about him not blowing up on the stand. Once youve kind of gone through this with him for two days or so and he hasnt blown up, i think its time to sit down. And i think the government will have a probably pretty effective redirect and those are going to be meetings and talk about the jury charge and so forth. And then, you know, theres summations. And i think the jurys really ready to hear, you know, the jury charge and those summations. Its going to be interesting to hear. David, what would you again, i just know as somebody who sat on two juries just watching this but also covering the trump story i never heard before i heard from david pecker and he was eliminated with immunity. And the crushepdo after Access Hollywood drops. One of checks was on the front page of the New York Times. Ive never seen all 12 of them. What milwaukees its way what makes the cut if youre an editor for summation in the prosecutors Closing Argument . You want to make sure the jury understands what they just heard, so you want to kind of retell the story. So youve heard from all these witnesses. Let me go through with you and make sure you heard what i heard and tell you that story. And then im going to come back and say, now, lets talk about some of these witnesses, the people you heard it from and why it is you should believe them. So you tell what i would do is kind of tell the whole story and then kind of circle back and put the pieces you know, show them how that osage is being made, you know, why you should believe david pecker and why you should believe Michael Cohen and why you should believe Stormy Daniels. Sure, theyre liar, but theyre in the thick of this with the defendant. You know, the defendant hes the one who picked these witnesses, the government did. So let me tell you why you should believe them and therefore why you should believe this defendant is guilty. So its a from a prosecutor or lawyer standpoint its a really the high point when you can stand up in front of a jury and present to them that story that you work so hard to present to some of these witnesses what is the likelihood that a lot of that is what you saw with your own eyes, dont get fuzzed up by the efforts to discredit these two witnesses only in here because donald trump picked two to sleep and a tried to cover up the fact he slept with her. Id love to use the sentence you just used in my summation. Ive been watching trump a long time. Throughout your whole coverage and, look, people talked about it. Its one thing to sit here in a Television Studio or over the cable and talk about what were hearing happened. A whole different dimension is evaluating the witness you know, eyeballing the witness. Thats really kind of the art of the sixth amendment, because you need to be able to confront your witnesses. And like wise the jury needs to see and hear from themselves whats happening. They need to look at body language. And i think, you know, looking at how trump reacts to this where people can kind of is he concerned . That hes not concerned, thats all thats going to be going through their thought process. So all that stuff thats going on in the courtroom is really important for a jurys evaluation of how they should decide this case. Thats so interesting. And just as youre talking im thinking about how he was reacting when Stormy Daniels was on the stand. He called her a word that rhymes with witch. They take all of it in. Its a privilege to get to talk to all of you about this. Im sure we will be calling on you again. Thank you for starting us off. Basil sticks around for the hour. When we come back how the Tawdry Display of loyalty to a disgraced expresident by members of Congress Sort of backfired for them, leaving the gop at risk of losing control of the House Of Representatives. Well explain that next. The House Of Representatives well explain that next. Get a bundle of your choice on us. So youll get a free phone and a smartwatch and a tablet. Yep, all 3 on us only at verizon. We love being outside, but the sun makes our deck and patio too hot to enjoy. Now thanks to our new sunsetter retractable awning, we can select full sun or instant shade in just 60 seconds. Its 20 degrees cooler under the sunsetter and we get instant protection from harmful uv rays and sun glare. For pricing starting at less than 1,000, transform your Outdoor Living space into a shaded retreat your family will love when you call, well rush you a special 200 Discount Certificate with your free awning idea kit youll get your sunsetter for as little as 799. 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It looks like they put mitt romney in a Cloning Machine but something went a little more wrong with each copy. So good. Its been like keeping up with the single most depraved sitcom youve ever sat through with a road tipping cast of guest stars playing the part of cheerleaders in matching outfits and everything. Today rows in court reserved for trumps guests were so bloated with members of the pick me caucus, elected republicans transparently and gamely seeking trumps recognition and praise that one of his advisers reportedly asked some of them to sit in it back of the room. They were out of room. The only thing more humiliating than that the fact in attending court today those republicans either wittingly or unwittingly sacrificed their majority for day. That house had to just one political stunt running up against another political stunt. And again like a bad sitcom there were weird crossovers from other trump trials. Our producer in the room today noticed right away that Jeffrey Clark yes that Jeffrey Clark of oil spill fame, an architect of the fake electors plot was sitting among the general audience. Joining urcower v david jolly who ive wanted to talk to for days about the goings on in new york. And Chief Of Staff at the Homeland Security department miles taylor whose opinion i have also sought. Basil is still with us. All right, david, what new is there to say about the debasement both of the body in which they serve, the party in which you and i were once members, and the rule of law . These guys standing around i mean no one defended trumps conduct, and now theyre all defending the crimes he committed to cover up the conduct. Yeah, nicolle. I think whats new to say is this. Look whos not there . The thousands of protesters that donald trump asked to come to his side, the millions of americans that he says are outraged by this, the speaker johnson, and the back bench Members Of Congress they say they are there representing, nobody really cares about this. Theyre not out there trying to defend donald trump. Theyre hoping the matter goes away, which then leads to the question you posed about how emasculating it is for Members Of Congress to show up to this trial simply to bend a knee to the former president and show loyalty either out of some sort of Patronage Opportunity or for an act of consideration for a spot on the ticket. Emasculating and humiliating, come up with whatever words you might. And then i think it gets down to the integrity of the institution of the congress. I know Charlie Sykes talked about this as well i think. Weve seen the speaker of the house go to an active trial and see the members follow him there and essentially try to interfere with the administration of justice, to tell the American People that the courts now are corrupt, to try to undermine the judiciary, to see the members of the House Republican caucus do that is a grave threat. It is part of the insidious that leads to january 6th to suggest that because Law And Order cant be trusted, we then have to take this in our own hands, they might be wearing blue suits and red ties but each of one of them might as well be carrying the pitchforks and bats we saw on january 6th because they are challenging the democracy in that courtroom just as much as the protesters on january 6th were. And miles, just believe matt gaetz if youre a maga republican and youre dont believe david jolly. This is reporting. Standing back and standing by, mr. President , gaetz wrote, he posted a photo of social media of him with other Congressional Republicans standing behind trump in a hallway outside courtroom where the former president s felony case is in its fourth week of testimony. Were at the you cant make it up phase of the story, miles. Well, nicolle, dont you think it this point it must be really hard to be a writer for the onion . How do you even write funny headlines now when things like this happen in real life . Theyre all wearing the same outfit. I know we talked about it a lot, but it just shows how bad the cult is, that they all have to show up in the same costume. I mean this completely takes care of halloween, but more significantly it shows really how much influence he wields over these people. But number two, nicolle, it shows the intimidation that donald trump has over the Republican Party, that they all have to come and parade to the courtroom to demonstrate their fealty towards him even though the polls should start showing them its a political liability, even though its costing them back in washington whereas youve noted theyve had to postpone legislative business. Theyre still doing it anyway, so that infimidation is strong. So i think the most important thing here is this shows how bad a trump second term will be because the folks that you are seeing parade through that courtroom, that is Donald Trumps cabinet. Those are Donald Trumps allies. Those will be his leaders in congress. These will be the people Running A Second Trump administration. If you think the Lauren Boeberts and matt gaetzs were on the side lines theyre in the arena in a second term and some of them are in trumps cabinet running federal departments and agencies. Thats been for me the take away instead of the sideshow of the actual trial is that who is going to run the American Peoples government. Trumps Family Members have been there and the disgraced officials who who run doj and the administration hoping for some kind of redemption in a second trump administration, and that should have people alarmed because that is not a picture of a well functioning government, and it is the picture of an unqualified circus. You know, the criminal trial for the sex with the porn star that he illegally covered up with fraudulent Business Records is actually not his biggest political problem. His biggest political problem today is that 15 to 35 of republicans in closed primaries are picking nikki haley whos been out the race for i think a little over two months. And thats in some ways more embarrassing than what hes on trial for. None of these people speak to that voter. Jeffrey clark, mike waltz, bob good. As miles was saying andy biggs, ralph loren, michelle boebert. Hes right this is the cabinet. Anna polina luna, these are the people that keep nikkis numbers soaring in close republican primary. He cant actually go out into the field and try to get those voters even if he cares about doing that because hes stuck in a trial. But, you know, all jokes aside what those members of Congress Look like are an army. They are an army for donald trump hypnotized and or paralyzed by the proximity of power or what they perceive that to be. It scares me because, yes, theyre potentially part of a donald trump cabinet, but where was that energy when children are being shot in schools . They didnt show up in mass to try and support the families of those victims. In all major policies that are affecting their constituents, they dont show up with this level of energy. The nerd in me that reads the federalist papers from time to time always goes back to the point where they say that these Members Of Congress are supposed to distill with wisdom the needs and desires of their constituents. Where is that in what they do . Well, were so far away from that, but they didnt even go and do their own dumb thing. So their dumb thing today was going to be so were so far from that they didnt even go and do other dumb stunt today. And they never will because as miles just said and david just said, theyre so beholden to donald trump for the speaker himself to go to maralago to pay homage, thats what were dealing with here. Yeah, i think those nikki haley numbers, im glad joe biden has at least the money advantage to go after those voters, right . But if youre looking for any sliver of what the Republican Party could be, that really is it right there. I think trumps too proud to go after those voters. They rejected him once, rejected him twice, off with your head. 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Even as you watch these trials play out, i dont know what the legal outcomes of them are going to be, but the salacious details, the peek into his soul shows you what a corrupt thinker, what a corrupt operator, what a broken man this person is, and i cant imagine the difficult decision that rests in this lap going forward, economic decisions, border issues. If theyre all selfcentered answers that come out of his mouth just for his sole purpose of survival, were going to have a rough four years. That was lifelong republican from georgia, former georgia Lieutenant Governor jeff duncan. David, we talked a lot with Sarah Longwell about permission structures. It is sort of the engine fueling the numbers i talked about 15 to 33 of republicans voting for nikki haley two months after she dropped out of the race. What do you make of that project . Well, look, i think donald trump has two major problems. One is he is off message every time hes talking about his victimhood as a defendant in trial. A lot of voters want to hear about angry economic populism. Whether its true or not, it works. And if they stay on message hes doing well. When hes says im a victim and youll be a victim too if you cheat on your taxes, that doesnt work. Those early haley voters stay in the haley voter lane. And donald trump is wrong on the issues themselves Americans Care about. You saw another group emerge yesterday with 40 or 50 members including john boehner, michael steel, cohen, simpson, a whole list of Old School Republicans who said, look, trump himself. Peace through strength, a marketbased economy. That is the haley lane. If donald trump isnt ready to reach out to it, he will lose the race to joe biden. The combination of angry populism around his victim hood as well as turning upside down all the traditional republican ideologies will cost him the election because hell lose that lane and it will end up in a statistically significant way going to joe biden. When he was, entertaining to his voters, novel to his voters, he won. But 2 extremely close. In 2020 he lost. This is an election where he is running as someone who needs to be protected by his base. Thats the whole message. It is about you protect me from criminal prosecution and ill protect you, even though he hasnt pardoned any of the january 6th people. I know its a close election. I can read the polls. I dont know that i believe them. They werent so right before the midterms. What do you make of this growing public chore us of lifelong republicans saying not trump, no way, not a good idea. I think it is making them sweat. These defections are very problematic for a man who won by the skin of his teeth and lost by the skin of his teeth. Theyre very, very worried about it. You see trump going on truth social and attacks people he says hes never met before in his life. He likes to claim he and i have never met and he gets on truth social to talk about it because hes really worried about what these defections mean. I think it could have an impact. David, miles, michael, thank you all. Well be right back. Hael, thank you all. Well be right back. It shouldd wiffle tennis. Pickle yeah, aw whoo these guys are intense. We got nothing to worry about. With e trade from morgan stanley, were ready for whatever gets served up. Dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. Id rather work on saving for retirement. Or college, since you like to get schooled. Thats a pretty good burn, right . Got him. Good game. Thanks for coming to our clinic, first ones free. So, i didnt think i needed swiffer. Until. 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