Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

President ial election, prosecutors in the Trump Election Interference Hush Money Trial today have turned to the core of the actual crimes, the actual criminal acts and criminal charges against the expresident. That scheme to cover up Hush Money Payments to Stormy Daniels, using falsified business records. On the stand right now, Trump Employee deborah tarasoff. She handled payroll. Her testimony is critical. She explains that only donald trump could sign checks that came from his personal account. Thats the one used to reimburse Michael Cohen for the Hush Money Payments. Trump did that, even after becoming president of the United States of america. She also testified that if trump did not want to sign a check, he didnt have to. She was one half of a double whammy against the expresident today. Testifying after mcconney. He was a codefendant of the expresident. That was back in the Civil Fraud Case Against Trump and the trump org. He testified that most of the money used to reimburse Michael Cohen came from trumps personal account. Nine of the 11 payments made to him. In fact, he testified that why cohen was reimbursed 420 was complicated but not so much when you see it laid out. It was the Hush Money Payment plus a bonus plus what they referred to as plussing up, paying him additional money to cover the taxes that would be owed. He said that he told deborah to record the payments as, quote, legal expenses. He went on to tell the jury that trump was a micromanager. He recalled that when trump almost fired him early on into their working relationship, it was because he was simply paying trumps bills without negotiating them. Trumps cash balance declined from one week to the next prompting trump to instruct him to not simply pay bills but negotiate them at all times. It was, he said, quote, a teaching moment. Trump appeared to have laughed as the story was told. That little anecdote, that little characterization of trump could play an Important Role should trump be convicted by this jury. It suggests the invoices, the documents at the heart of the case, would not have been paid without Donald Trumps explicit knowledge. All of this happening after court began today with a stunning moment. The judge finding the expresident in contempt for violating his gag order again. The judge threatening the expresident with jail time. Judge merchan saying, it appears the 1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. The last thing i want to do is put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States and possibly the next president as well. There are many reasons why incarceration is a last resort for you. As much as i do not want to impose a Jail Sanction, but i will if necessary. Two Trump Employees testifying about the details of the plan to conceal Hush Money Payments is at the heart of the criminal case against the expresident. Its where we start today with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. Vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. Former top official at the Department Of Justice and msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissmann, Melissa Murray joins us at the table, shes an msnbc contributor and nyu law professor. At the table, as she is every day, from the courthouse, susan craig. Sue, i start with you. Lets start with the testimony. We will work our way back to the beginning of the day and the gag order. As someone who teaches us all the time about how trump Ran Afoul Of The Law in his financial dealings, tell us why the two Witnesses Today matter. They are really important. They establish part of the crime here, which is the falsification of the entries theres 34 entries that are alleged to have been falsified. Today, the jury saw them on the screen, one by one. It was michael there were various invoices and entries made into the books that were said for legal fees, but the prosecution is arguing they were for the Hush Money Payments. It was one by one by one so that they could establish it and enter them into the record. Its important because they dont have to show that trump actually made the entries themselves. But that he caused someone like cohen to do it so they had an agreement and that caused these false entries. It was really important to get the tracks down on the entry of all of these the invoices. I remember when you were on the show and Michael Cohen was a guest. Your question was about this plussing up. Explain why thats so significant. If it was just for legal fees, there should have been no plussing up on it. Its just a retainer. There was documents shown today about the plussing up. The two employees at the Trump Organization had a discussion about that. There was more than plussing up. There was a payment for something else. It came to where they run into trouble is the plussing up of the legal fees. Vaughn hillyard, i understand that court is over for the day. It has ended. Its just after 4 00. Thats a little earlier than i think we thought. These two witnesses are riveting, to me, because i have consumed all of susans journalism in this area. To me, the moments that made me sort of gasp are the anecdotal information about what a tightwad and micromanager he is. It came in the form of the story that we led with. It comes through in everybody detailing how even if he was on the phone, he wanted to be involved in every dime of his money that was spent. Reporter right. Just how intrinsically involved each of these key players, including weisselberg was to this. This wasnt, he is on our payroll, there are thousands of people on the payroll of the Trump Organization. Theres a clear focus on how Michael Cohen was going to be reimbursed and what he technically was going to be reimbursed for, to the point it was recorded into evidence here today in front of this jury that there were handwritten notes on Bank Statements and ledgers from weisselberg as well as mcconney to the effect of how this was going to be executed and the math about how they were ultimately able to get to the sum of money that they were going to pay Michael Cohen over the course of the entire year. Theres even it was discussed during the testimony by deborah tarasoff, who is in charge of executing the checks, that it took either don junior or eric or donald trump himself to sign off on a check that was more than 10,000. She provided testimony that it was not uncommon for him when a check was placed in front of him to put void on the back and cross it out. We have a situation here where two individuals, one who is a 35year employee of the Trump Organization, and another who is still an employee, after 24 years at the Trump Organization testifying about the way in which donald trump was executing his financial records and the extent to which he was, through them they did not say they had direct testimony, that donald trump directed this, they are players of why the District Attorneys Office has suggested this is a conspiracy. The jury for the first time saw the actual checks. I remember back in 2018 when those first checks to Michael Cohen were made public, just the way in which it became clear to the public at large that this is real. Donald trump actually signed checks to Michael Cohen. Here in 2024, a jury today for first time saw those very checks for themselves. I remember that. I think they ended up on the front page of the New York Times. That was very powerful. They didnt come out of a corporate account. Most came out of his account and were signed by him. We also heard the evidence that the checks were sent to the white house via fedex for him to be signed. He signed them and then sent them back. He knew full well the money was going out to Michael Cohen. The question becomes, can Donald Trumps lawyers convince the jury was it for legal fees and was it not . The argument was made today that this was for legal fees performed. At one point cohen didnt work there anymore, right . He didnt. But they are arguing he was doing legal services. The interesting part i thought of the whole day was Michael Cohen would send invoices saying, per my retainer agreement. Nobody saw the retainer agreement. At one point Donald Trumps lawyers were arguing it was a verbal retainer agreement. Sort of like he can magically declassify documents, that this was some sort of agreement that was verbal. Theres no written agreement. It kind of started to fall apart as they were going into that territory, i thought. What is the significance and impact of the handwritten notes . Just to not pushback, but to elaborate what you were saying, these witnesses were meant to be handmaidens to the star of the show, the documents. The handwritten notes, the checks, the invoices tell a Documentary Story that gets pieced together. Why are the handwritten notes important . To the point about him being a micromanager. Its him and Michael Cohen who were having the communications. Everyone knows whats going on. Donald trump is in the middle of it. Its like The Civil Fraud Trial where you had tish james showing how intimately involved he was in his businesses. And yet they are saying its a massive enterprise and he is hands off. You saw the same thing here on crossexamination with the lawyers. He is really not the one doing this. You are taking your weisselberg. Theres a back and forth, where they are showing he is so connected to this and the defense is like, no, no. I want to come back with half of the vocabulary thats a perfect articulation of what happened today. The only thing i can add now is to turn to some of the transcript. Let me read this to you. On the documents, which i think thats part of what we miss we will have them tomorrow. But we dont have the documents with the transcripts. The Jury Saw Documents which have trumps signature on them. The document goes up. Its a Bank Statement with weisselbergs handwritten note about how to gross up the payment to cohen because he presumes it will be accounted for as income. They have to pad it or buff it. This testimony comes right after that. Did you have the authority to prove payment of an invoice to mr. Mcconney . No. Before trump became president , after an invoice was approved and a check was cut, who had Signature Authority . Answer, just donald trump. Question, after trump became president , eric trump, donald trump junior and Allen Weisselberg, how many signatures were needed . Over 10,000 it had to be two. As vaughn said, those checks were signed by donald trump. They made their way to the front page of the New York Times and the jury today saw them. The document that your team just put up, thats exhibit 35. Exhibit 35 and exhibit 36 are the star exhibits so far. The handwriting that is on the left of the screen, the witness today made clear that that was Allen Weisselberg. This shot is exhibit 36. That was described as the Chicken Scratching of Jeff Mcconney. They both are you have these two intern Trump Organization witnesses who have written these things. One is the controller, one is the chief financial officer. The reason its so devastating with respect to the scheme is this is supposedly legal fees. But it doesnt make any sense, because exhibit 35 is the actual Payment Record that Michael Cohen brings to Allen Weisselberg that shows that this is 130,000 that he wired to Stormy Daniels lawyer. This is the Hush Money Record that shows 130,000 was paid. So then the issue is, how do we reimburse Michael Cohen as legal fees . Legal fees have to be are taxed. They say 130,000 times two, because thats his tax bracket. He needs to be paid twice that amount to get reimbursed 130,000. Thats not how legal fees true legal fees are calculated. 130,000 that you pay to a porn star times two. I have been a lawyer. Thats now is that not how it works for you . This is really devastating contemporaneous information in exhibits 35 and 36. Barring a page from the january 6 committee when you look at the key witnesses, they are witnesses from inside the tent. These are normally hostile witnesses, hope hicks, Jeff Mcconney, Allen Weisselbergs notes, david pecker, these are all people not aligned with the prosecutors revealing what was happening in the Trump Organization. It may be a, quote, boring day. But this is such hard evidence. Its the kind of thing that prosecutors in summation are going to latch on to and make sure the jurors understand how preposterous it is that remember the opening . The opening when todd blanche said there was no reimbursement. Look at exhibit 35 and 36. Its going to be really hard to contend that thats true. I love your point about the documents and these people are just sort of i have this image of the people at disneyland that greet you and thats my brain. Let me read the testimony that was surrounding the documents. Where did the 180,000 come from . Its a combination of two amounts. The domestic transfer for 130,000 plus the 50,000 payment for tech services. Weisselbergs notes say they grossed up to 360 . For tax purposes. Objection. Overruled. Question, prosecutor, you are familiar with the process of Grossing Up Payments for tax purposes . Yes. Cohens tax bracket was 50 . Going back to that line in mr. Weisselbergs notes where its grossed up to 360,000, is that double 180,000 . Yes. Thats the Hush Money Payment. What possible just tell me what the strategy is to try to i feel like we have spent so much time on the strategy of Impeaching Cohen as a character witness. How do you impeach these checks . You cant impeach the documents. Thats what makes the documents the star witness. Mcconney, tarasoff, they are local color to explain why the documents are important. They will distance donald trump from them. You saw this a little bit with the Cross Examination of mcconney. Its weisselberg who is telling you to do this. He is the one directing the plus up. He is the one who is trying to compensate for the fact that Michael Cohen isnt going to be made whole if he gets paid 130,000. He actually took 130,000 out of his own pocket and needs to be made whole. They are trying to put distance between donald trump and thats the length of Allen Weisselberg. You will see over and over in the crossexamination of these witnesses, who are critical for making these documents come alive, is donald trump isnt the face of this. He is not the puppet master. Its too big for him to be involved. Why is why the prosecutions detail about how he is on the phone call, how he is telling jeffrey, never pay retail. Thats important for dispelling the idea that he is just in the background, a silent partner. He is running the whole show. Let me show you all what Michael Cohen adds narratively in terms of articulating how the Hush Money Scheme worked. What was the purpose of grossing up the amount, essentially doubling what you had paid to miss clifford and others . If you pay 130,000, and you live in new york where you have a 50 tax bracket, in order to get your 130 back, you have to have 20 260. If he gave me back 130, i would be out 65,000. What was the purpose of spreading the reimbursements to you over the 12 monthly installments . To hide what the payment was. I wanted the money in one shot. Would have preferred it that way. To be able to put it on the books, Allen Weisselberg made the decision that it should be paid over the 12 months so that it would look like a retainer. Did mr. Trump know about this Reimbursement Method . He knew about everything, yes. Thank you, mr. Cohen. The president not only knew about the payments, he knew and helped to hide it to you . We discussed it. Everything had to go through mr. Trump and approved by mr. Trump. Donald trump walking up to the line of a threat of incarceration because of his vitriol toward Michael Cohen. Thats what Michael Cohen will testify to. Reporter right. Theres also the 2018 Financial Disclosure report that donald trump not only filed but signed that had it in a line, mr. Cohen sought reimbursement and mr. Trump reimbursed mr. Cohen. This is difficult here. Its not only the testimony of Michael Cohen, but also of record that donald trump himself signed that had those exact words in there. Today, a tenth violation of the gag order by donald trump. Found not only the fine of 1,000, but given very direct rebuke from judge merchan saying in part that it appears the 1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. The last thing i want to do is put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States and potentially the future president as well. There are many reasons why incarceration should be a last resort. But magnitude of such a decision is not lost on me. Michael cohen is still a witness who has not come forward to the stand. Not only witnesses but also the jury. That was the tenth violation today after Donald Trumps remark last week that 95 of the jurors are democrats, which is not true. Donald trump wouldnt know that. But yet, it was a clear rebuke from judge merchan who said it could injure the jury pool in terms of their ability to do a fair trial but put them at risk in their personal lives. Everything you say, i write down ten more questions. I have to sneak in a break. We will come back on the Financial Disclosure and other documents on The Other Side of the break. We will talk more about him being threatened with jail time. Judge merchan sounding like he has reached some sort of Boiling Point with trumps rhetoric. Brittney griner is speaking out about her imprisonment in russia. She sat down with joy reid and told her tale of her physical and mental anguish that she endured there. We will bring you some of that conversation and talk more about it with joy who will join us during the broadcast. Those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Camilla tried the new scent of gain relax flings and it changed everything. silence hey dave, dont knock it till you smell it. Try the new luxurious scent of gain relax flings. Try new gain Relax Scent Beads too. For twice the vibes. Tech does your windshield have a crack . Trust safelite. This customer had auto glass damage, but he was busy working from home. So he scheduled with safelite in just a few clicks. We came to his house. Then we got to work. We replaced his windshield. And installed new wipers to protect his new glass. Customer looks great. Thank you. Tech my pleasure. Vo we come to you for free. Schedule now for Free Mobile Service at safelite. Com. Safelite repair, safelite replace. Its odd how in an instant things can transform. Slipping out of balance into freefall. Im glad i found stability amidst it all. Gold. Standing the test of time. Youve got xfinity wifi at home. Gold. Take it on the go with Xfinity Mobile. Customers now get exclusive access to wifi speed up to a gig in millions of locations. Plus, buy one unlimited line and get one free. Thats like getting two unlimited lines for Twenty Dollars a month each for a year. So, ditch the other guys and switch today. Buy one line of unlimited, get one free for a year with Xfinity Mobile plus, save even more and get an eligible 5g phone on us visit xfinitymobile. Com today. He is rushing the trial like crazy. Nobody has seen a thing go like this. That jury was picked so fast. 95 democrats, mostly all democrats. Think of it as a purely democrat area. Its a very unfair situation, that i can tell you. Back with vaughn, andrea, melissa and sue. They are still dealing with april 2 violations. Talk about the dynamic here of trump violating his gag order in real time. The prosecution is making pretty good time. We understand that maybe two more weeks, this week and next. Trump is on the record and all of his complaints saying, i have to get on the campaign trail. Im unclear why its an issue he is complaining about now. Right. He is going to complain about if its too slow, or its too fast. Theres not really a rhyme or reason. I do think with respect to the Tenth Finding Of Criminal Context remember, this is the judge Finding Criminal Context Beyond A Reasonable Doubt as to the former president of the United States. Its really clear the judge is depending on the seriousness of the next violation contemplating putting him in jail. He could not have been clearer that that is something, as he said, i have to do my job. Frankly, if that happens, its not going to be because of anything judge merchan did. Its Donald Trumps only choice. I also feel like it will be interesting to see how much of a brushback decision is today. As much as donald trump may think, i want the distraction of going to jail, but no one wants to go to jail, particularly in the new york system, which is a pretty rough system. Its possible for the judge to do something which we have talked about, which is the judge could find him in contempt and say i will sentence you at the end of the case. If theres a conviction, he could consider the contempts in deciding whether he should get a Jail Sentence if the jury were to find he has done one or more of the felonies, with which he is charged. There are what i would say other options that judge merchan still has. I really do think that what we are seeing with the court and with the d. A. Is an incredibly professional performance in extraordinarily difficult circumstances. You and i and many others have talked about how the delays in the Justice System but this case has gone to trial within a year, which is pretty fast for a criminal case where theres a lot of discovery and theres due process concerns. Judge merchan has so far run a very tight ship. Also, the evidence shows that this is an experienced trial team not putting on a lot of unnecessary witnesses. They are putting on each witness, we know exactly why they are called. They go in. They put their evidence in. They move on. Just as looking at this as a professional matter, it is i think people can look at this as a High Water Mark for the judicial system and how its operating. Its an extraordinary contrast with whats going on with the Supreme Court induling the immunity arguments. Yeah. Sue, someone smart, maybe it was andrew, talked about how trumps treatment of the judge can factor in in an emotional level to how a jury feels about a case and a trial. I wonder if you are picking up anything in the courtroom, if theres i know the jury i dont think they are there for these proceedings. They werent there this morning for the gag order. I have to say of all the moments we have seen and the interaction between the judge and donald trump, the gravity of this morning was heavy. It was conveyed. The judge read this. He said, this moment is not lost on me. He said, its the last thing he wants to do. You are a former and potentially possibly future u. S. President. He read this through. Everybody the courtroom was silent. Its interesting to see how trump proceeds knowing that. Because he heard it, too. Vaughn, i will im sure that steve bannon is in a cave somewhere trying to figure out if this is good or bad for trump. I know from my own reporting, im sure you do, that trump didnt eat on foreign trips because he was afraid of germs. Theres no way trump himself wants to go to jail. His political operation may be telegraphing someone else, bring it on. Im sure that will happen. I think its safe to say i feel confident asserting that donald trump has zero interest in spending the night in jail. Reporter right. We know that donald trump doesnt want to go to jail. It makes the potential of him serving an actual prison time before the election all the more clear in the minds of voters if they were to see such imagery here, because then theres a mass of the american electorate that will see donald trump going to jail. In no way, shape or form have i talked to any political ally of donald trump who has suggested thats good for them. A mug shot may raise you money, but jail time makes the potential of Donald Trump Being A Criminal convicted felon more real and puts the details of the trial, which donald trump is not favorable of, at the forefront of focus. He is required to be in the courthouse. But anybody suggests he is open to it, i would be surprised by that. Frankly, i think donald trump has been a little more controlled, if we could say that, over the last two weeks. He did not have any alleged violations from the Campaign Stage at the events. He has been more controlled. I think thats evidence that he would rather not face the consequences that judge merchan says could be very real. You are such a pro. I would whip around to see what the noise was. You are a pro. Its an Important Note from vaughn that we not follow the shiny objects. Trump doesnt want to go to jail. Yes, trump can control himself. He has slightly more Impulse Control than a hunting dog. Lets go with something else. This idea that he cant help it, he cant control himself, he cant run for president without attacking witnesses and the jury is ludicrous. Judge merchan, without entering into the political fray, seemed to draw an important Line In The Sand today. He did draw a line. To the point about donald trump controlling himself, the bar is in hell. Most defendant do manage to do this he can control himself. He has been in the courtroom. He is able to control himself. This exchange reminds me of the points that donald trump has been making to the black community. Im very much like you, persecuted by the Justice System. You are not like other defendants. Certainly not many black defendants who if they came this close to the line would have been held in Contempt Of Court and would have been incarcerated by now. Judge merchan said the quiet part out loud today. He doesnt want to incarcerate because he knows that would make donald trump a martyr. Thats the part that goes unsaid. Everyone knows that is whats going on. Unlike other defendants, jail doesnt look like jail for everybody else. He will probably be put in a holding cell. He will have Secret Service protection. It will look nothing like when everybody has to do time. Including Allen Weisselberg. Right. He is not in general population at rikers. Its important to say. Its not like he will be thrown into general population at rikers for a week or two days. Thats not happening. Can i make this a point in the program when we say, none of this is normal . We are even we have to talk about this, because trump has violated his gag order. Those are crimes in and of themselves. We will look at who else is still ahead in terms of witnesses to testify in the criminal trial, first ever criminal trial of an american expresident. Stay with us. Right now you can get a free footlong at subway. Just buy any footlong in the app and get one free. Just scan the qr code and Enter Promo Code flbogo it only works from The Other Side of the screen, buddy. You still got a land line in your house. Order now in the subway app. woman ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. tony hale i wasnt eavesdropping, yes i was. You need verizon. 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The president also addressing the abrupt resignation of his Personal Assistant confirming a report she made unflattering comments about his family at an offtherecord dinner. She said she was drinking a little bit. She was with reporters. Everything she said was off the record. That doesnt really cover for it. Mentioned a couple things about my children. Trump wishing her well while proclaiming his love for all his children. Tiffany is great. I love tiffany. I had to laugh. He had to say that because this staffer said something very different than that. We show you this in the spirit of coming attractions. The prosecution in this case has been Calling Trump Org and Trump White House employees in some instances. Trump org is playing for the lawyers, thats the case with the two Witnesses Today. One of the people we are expecting the women we showed you, that we are introducing to you ahead of time. She served as Donald Trumps personal secretary for his first two years as president. She was unceremoniously fired after she in Donald Trumps words had too much to drink and spilled the beans about his children to the press. Vaughn, what does she know . She likes donald trump a lot. Shes another if we import the january 6 public hearing metaphor to the story told by the prosecution, this is another trump fan, someone who adores donald trump, serving as a fact witness on some of the documents or some of the time line. Reporter right. Despite that unceremonious exit, she wrote a book that was favorable in the way she talked about donald trump and the family and her time at white house. I dont think folks should expect shes eagerly arriving here to Lower Manhattan to testify inside of this courtroom. She was the one who served outside the oval office. Shes the one when we talk about the execution of donald trump actually putting his signature on those checks, and those checks making their way to Michael Cohen, she was the key handler of those checks, we believe. She was the one, based off the testify here today from deborah tarasoff. Once donald trump entered the white house in 2017, she would then get the invoices and she would prepare the check, fedex the check to the white house. At that point in time, she would wait for it to be returned to her. What we could expect to hear from madeleine is exactly and perhaps words that donald trump made monthly every time he was signing the checks in 2017, the 11 checks, whether at any point he potentially had second thoughts about signing the check back to Michael Cohen. Perhaps madeleine will have some insight as to what those interactions inside of the oval office looked like upon him signing them and returning them to her, from that point where she would mail them back over to the Trump Organization and tarasoff to be sent to Michael Cohen. On the heels of the hope hicks testimony, which was dramatic, but also very much like madeleine, someone who testified to her reverence to trump. Talked about how he was not just a good communicator, but in her words the best at message. This is what westerhaut said in her book. I made a mistake and i had one bad night. After a couple drinks, by the pool on a rare day off, i accepted an invitation to dinner with reporters. In it, i said some things that i shouldnt have said and that i deeply regret and i absolutely didnt mean. What she said was that trump hated to be photographed with his daughter tiffany because she was overweight and he couldnt pick her out of a crowd. In the spirit of this is who they are, this is who they are. Reporter right. Look, madeleine i wish i could say i knew her personally. But shes somebody like a lot of staffers who i have met along the way that worked for donald trump. She came from working was a right hand to priebus at the rnc. Once they realized that that was the direction that this was headed, they he created favor with donald trump. During the transition, it was madeleine who you saw there with rick perry, mitt romney, anybody that came to meet with donald trump during the transition in january of 2017, they first met her there. For a lot of republican operatives, they justified their existence in working in republican politics and for donald trump understanding that thats where the power lied. As somebody who is young in her professional career, it was very clear to her and so many others working republican politics that this was the future of the Republican Party. The one way to relevance was to associate with donald trump and his white house in 2017. Thats what she did. To your point, i mean, these are the people telling the story because documents cant talk. Documents cant talk. Its also, as andrew said, notable that these are trump insiders. These arent democrats. These arent people from the Biden Administration trying to explain these documents they found on the white house floor. These are people from Donald Trumps inner circle. They are telling the truth. They are testifying under oath. Its not favorable. That really does, i think, accrue on the prosecutions favor. Because its so powerful to have these insiders telling tales about life in that inner circle, you are going to see the defense try to push back. This is not the way it happened. There are a lot of people in the inner circle. Donald trump is too big for these details. Thats weisselberg who is your supervisor. The fact that all of these people its like apprentice 2. 0. Low level staffers are real figures again. They are the ones doing the bidding. He is completely outside of it. Thats the only way they can save him from the fact of these documents. You could literally call you could close your eyes and call anyone that has been around donald trump at any time in the last 30 years, and they would blow that theory out of the water. I have to sneak in another break. Andrew, when i come back, i want to press you and sue on this Reverse Engineering of the cohen testimony. It feels like whenever he takes the stand, if he takes the stand, we will have heard from all these people who revere donald trump, who think he is the best messenger to ever live, who weep when they have to tell the truth about what he said about, thank god this didnt come out when i was running for president. We will have heard from so many people whose reverence and admiration for donald trump is so interconnected in their devastating testimony about the facts that by the time cohen takes the stand, it would seem implausible for him to have coopted all of them to tell the same story. We will have that conversation on The Other Side. What causes a curve down there . Can it be treated . Stop typing, and start talking. It could be a medical condition called peyronies disease, or pd. And it could be treated without surgery. 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Andrew weissmann just talk to me about the prosecution strategy of having all of these Trump Admirers testify before the jury ever is introduced to Michael Cohen. You know, i was just thinking about this today because i was thinking about just how much this is such a wellconstructed case and its sort of brick by brick and i was thinking if this was any case where the defendant wasnt donald trump i dont know that you need Michael Cohen. Theres just so much evidence. And i think youre going to hear about donald trump when he signs checks that the invoices attached to it, the fake invoice. So anybody would sit there and go wait a minute, if im reimbursing someone 130 why am i paying 260 . Also, there are just so many different pieces from so many different types of witnesses that theres so many ways you would think of course if youre doing a reimbursement youre going to understand what its for. And you have hope hicks saying that he understood the hush money and he understood that he was grateful to Michael Cohen. You have him admitting in tweets and in civil litigation that he reimbursed donald trump. Having said all that, i think they probably will call him. And hes so corroborated in every way. But he will tell the story that everyone knows, but theyll hear it in so coherent fashion from beginning to end. And one quick thing i was remarking on when you played the clip of Michael Cohen before congress and he was asked about how do you explain the 260 versus 130 and why it needed to be cleared up. He did not know when he said that that Allen Weisselberg had written this down in a conversation with Jeff Mcconney. He did not know that Jeff Mcconney took his own notes of that. So its such strong corroboration that in a completely different context someone is writing down exactly what he is saying in congress happened. And he wasnt aware of it. So you get to sort of test his credibility. And yes, he may have lied in all sorts of other ways, ways that he by the way has said he has. But it doesnt mean hes lying in all contexts. And here you have that corroboration. Final thought on this is that i do think people should not expect this case to go on and on and on. I really think that we are going to see this closing out quickly. That is the strategy of an experienced prosecution team. And so i dont think we should be thinking oh, theres weeks to go. I think this is days to go. Yeah. Andrew, since weve been on the air weve learned i think from some of our team that by the end of next week the prosecution could be close to an end. I want to ask you to pick up on Andrews Point about Michael Cohen. I feel like the three of us have spent time on the air with Michael Cohen and the story that hes told on the air hes told a more indepth story. He made 25 visits. Right. I think thats after bragg takes over. So whatever he had provided pomerantz and the others looking at this, i think there are 25 visits. He was able to provide them with other people in the room. And it seems that for all of the source of effort to destroy Michael Cohen, with trump theres always a tell. Right . In the way that theres always a projection. Journalism is the enemies of the people. They win their pulitzers today for standing on the side of democracy and The Good Guys against villains. Theres a projection in cohen. Trump deliberately has tried to preimpeach Michael Cohen. Right. And there really is so much evidence coming into his testimony. But i think one of the things we really saw today that cohen is going to be critical is that the prosecution, they dont have to prove that donald trump personally made these false statements, just that he caused them to be made. And the agreement between cohen and trump will be critical. And cohen is going to speak to that. Hes going to talk about what they discussed. I think thats really going to have an impression at the end. And underlying it is all these documents that have come in. I think andrew made a really good point, that michael did not know about all these handwritten notes that were, you know, going on at the Trump Organization that again back up his story. But i think to hear from Michael Cohen about the deal when weve got all these documents now coming in behind it is going to be powerful, just like david pecker was i was thinking back to david pecker. So pecker says and i think its this one line. I am not a bank. Enter Michael Cohen. Theres the bank. There wouldnt be a crime if pecker wanted to be a bank. But pecker, who has retained his own Campaign Finance counsel because he gets in trouble with schwarzenegger, a story the jury schwarzenegger, a story the jury has your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. Indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. Visit indeed. Com hire i think mueller is a true never trumper. Hes somebody that dislikes donald trump. As you saw in georgia, where the District Attorney is totally compromised, the case has to be dropped. We have an Attorney General of new york, shes grossly incompetent. Shes an evil person. Shes a terrible, terrible Attorney General. The American People have been besieged with lies from the partisan witch hunt known as the Unselect Committee on january 6th. As the rest of us breathe, donald trump attacks anyone investigating him. He has always done it. Aggressively pursued anyone seeking to hold him accountable under the rule of law that the rest of us live under. Whether its a special counsel, a District Attorney, congressional panels. In the criminal case currently under way here in manhattan is no exception. But what sets this trial and this moment apart is it may finally be the moment when trump does so much that is so egregious, so detrimental to the rule of law and the human beings involved in this case, the jurors, the witnesses, that he may actually face a consequence for those smears. Last week donald trump was charged 9,000 for violating the gag order placed on him. Thats 1,000 for each of the nine violations. It didnt sound like a lot of money, but it was important. Turns out according to the judge in this trial, judge juan merchan, those financial penalties proved to him that they were not adequate. They did not deter him. So todays court session, first thing this morning, began with a forceful message from the judge, judge merchan, who in addition to Charging Trump criminally with another contempt of his gag order, fined him another 1,000 fine for an attack he made against the jury. The judge also said he may be left with no other choice but to jail the expresident. The judge addressing donald trump directly said this, quote, it appears that the 1,000 fines are not serving as a deterrent. Therefore, going forward, this court will have to consider a Jail Sanction if recommended. Mr. Trump, it is important to understand that the last thing i want to do is put you in jail. You are the former president of the United States and possibly the next president as well. There are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. To take that step would be disruptive to these proceedings, which i imagine you want to end as quickly as possible. The magnitude of such a decision is not onesided. But at the end of the day, i have a job to do and part of that job is to protect the dignity of the judicial system and compel respect. A real moment from the judge today that left open the prospect of potential jail time for the expresident. It now hangs over him in a more serious way than at any other point in his life. While today in court we heard trump and Current Trump org employees describe in detail the Monthly Payments made to Michael Cohen in 2017 that were set up to hide the fact that they were reimbursements for the 130,000 Hush Money Payment made to porn star Stormy Daniels ahead of the 2016 election. Testimony that at times seemed dense and a bit tedious but got to the real heart of the case, including what documents, and thats payments to trumps former fixer. Its where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Outside the courthouse Washington Post justice reporter and coauthor of the trump trials newsletter, which i read every day, its fantastic. Devlin barrett is here. With me at the table, former u. S. Attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General harry litmans here. And the host of the On Brand Podcast Donny Deutsch is here. I want to dive back into the testimony but i have to start with jail. Trump, who didnt go to a memorial for United States veterans of world war i i think and ii in france because it was raining and his hair would get messed up, for a million reasons, petty, shallow and primal, trump does not want to go to jail. Yeah. Despite his references to Nelson Mandela we will not see him doing a 24hour necklaceon Nelson Mandela. I remember interviewing the wolf of wall street and he told me what its literally going through the process, what its like and what they examine and how they do things. Donald trump and we were talking off camera, and you brought up the point in the last segment that he wont eat food when he goes on foreign territory. You have to use the bathroom. His hair. His makeup. His skin. Like he will be pulled apart. He doesnt have the mettle to do it. So anybody thats out there saying oh, its a great moment for him, this is not a mug shot. This is jail. And donald trump is terrified. Youve got to believe. Just by his issues with odors and smells and, you know, fear of disease. This guy does not want to spend nobody does, but particularly this guy. You were in court today. What was this moment like . It was its the sentence weve been waiting for for over a year. Theres been a lot of tongue wagging from different judges. Usually to the attorneys. Not only did he put it out there, were now at the line, but he turned, as you said and ive never seen this before. To trump directly. And he lectured him, i dont want to do it, but if you force me to im going to have to. It was slightly breathtaking, i would say, because of the direct we are here, heres the line, thats it. Devlin, youve covered trumps brushes with legal accountability for as long as ive had a show on the air here. Its never come to this. Right . Hes never actually been on trial. A jurys never been selected to none of us will have any say in whether there will be a consequence for his alleged criminality. Just the jury will. But it has never come to this point where a judge looked him in the eye and said next stop, jail. Thats right. And you know, there was a moment similar to this a little bit in the e. Jean carroll trial. But thats a civil matter. And as much as the judge and he chirped at each other a little bit, there really isnt the threat of incarceration in a civil case the way there is in a criminal case. And there is a game of chicken going on here. And i dont think its like an emotional game of chicken. I think its a very tactical, strategic game of chicken between these two sides as trump tries to see what he can get away with and the judge keeps trying to draw a line and say no further than this. Devlin, do you think it adds up to any calculation that he has to testify . I mean, hes so desperate to tell his story. I remember you had great reporting while mueller existed those 23 months and at least once every ten days he tweeted out im dying to talk to mueller, im dying to tell my story. Do you think this factors in at all to his teams calculation about whether or not he takes a stand in his own defense . I think its a factor, but i dont think its going to be i adeciding factor because the things that will decide that, its such a highstakes gamble for any defendant to take the stand, its particularly a highstakes gamble for this defendant to take the stand in this case. So i think trump is going to play is coy and sort of dangle the possibility right up till the very end. But really the stakes are so high i have to think his lawyers are going to spend a lot of time and energy talking him into a place where they hope he gets to not testify. I dont think any Defense Lawyer wants that in this situation. You can almost see in the coverage, donny, as it always does, sort of the threads and the bonds between him and his legal team running a little thin. You can see it in their rebukes. I dont know much about mr. Blanche, but hes not someone that was known to be rebuked by judges in front of courtrooms and juries before. He was during jury selection. I think what devlin is saying is absolutely right. But at the end of the day trump seems to always believe hes his own best lawyer. Look, weve documented, you dont touch trump without coming away with a stink. And obviously this is a very a lawyer with a very good reputation. I want to just go back to the gag order and the judge has kind of put i dont want to say put himself in a corner. The judge has really kind of Put It On The Line he drew a line. He really like where if trump keeps going the judge literally has no choice for his own credibility. Im not a lawyer. But just human behavior. 100 . And Michael Cohen is what remains. So the idea that trump isnt going to be his worst i feel like no one has seen anything yet. I mean, the fact that cohen is coming, stormy a lot of the witnesses have been people who remain loyal and admiring of donald trump. Hope hicks said he was the best messenger. These two today i believe have lawyers paid for by the trump org. Stormy daniels, Michael Cohen would not be those kinds of witnesss. No. And hes going to be fit to be tied. Merchan was calm about it but he was entirely credible. We are at an end here. Its a sensible calculation on this part. He doesnt want to keep doing these give trump a little rope, hell take it. A little rope hell take it. Hes saying were herei dont want to do it but really were here. And i 100 agree with donny. He cannot now just ignore the next one. P his credibility and the systems on the line. It could happen while were on the air. Its 5 10. Then what happens . First of all i want to see on the whole dont eat the food et cetera. Theres the chance of the first incarceration being a couple hours in the holding cell in the back. But then hes in the exact same youre saying you can hold it Something Like that. But then hes in the same position. My best guess, he was chastened. He was sullen. I dont think hes going to want to do it. And the issue is really can he stop himself, will the sort of tourettes aspect of trump, especially with cohen testifying, just keep him from being able to muzzle it . I dont think cohens going to really get him going. More than Stormy Daniels. Always does. Something about these two guys. And look, cohen everybody keeps saying cohen, his credibility he will be good. He can be very charming when he wants to be. He really, really can. And the jury has heard him denigrated every single day theres been testimony. So the bar is down over here. And i think michael im not just saying this because hes a friend of mine. I think hes going to be in a really comfortable position. And i think that the more they cross him i think hes because hes got the truth on his side. And you know, as any lawyer will tell you, once you have the truth theres just not much you have to worry about and deal with. Hell be worried. But theyve seen him 25 times. Hell be scripted to the comma. There is still one little thing that i know you were talking before, that everythings all stitched up. I think today obliterated the idea that he worked on his own. But that conversation among trump, weisselberg, and him, hes going to be the guy that has to testify about it. And theyll come after him on it. I want to bring you in on this, devlin. I mean, the idea that bragg didnt know what they were dealing with with cohen was always not credible. Right . I mean, bragg was so people thought he was too slow. Right . He got pomerantz leaves, the prosecutors were looking at this quit. He took his Time Corroborating with witnesses who still work at the trump org, who still admire donald trump publicly. And with documents just about every syllable that Michael Cohen would utter. Tell me your sense of sort of the trump teams State Of Mind regarding the evidence thats been presented so far. Look, i think trumps theory of how they can beat this or maybe just get to a hung jury is if they can show that for key factual pieces that key parts of trumps understanding of what was going on is essentially only built upon the word of Michael Cohen, if they can convince one or more jurors that you really cant get from a to c without the b of Michael Cohen, then i think they think they have a shot. But the challenge is, as harry said, you know, theres a lot of paperwork behind all of this. And so you have to not necessarily just disprove cohen, but if people think the paper trail is Strong Enough the jurors may not ultimately care that much about how unreliable or shaky cohen is as a witness. And we dont know how unreliable or shaky hes going to be as a witness yet. We just know he comes with a great, great deal of baggage. Let me show you some of i mean, hes testified before congress. Weve seen him in a serious way. Weve seen him when everything was on the line. He i think was on his way to prison when he testifies in 2019. Right . Let me play some of this. Well talk about the timeline on The Other Side. As exhibit 5a to my testimony shows, i am providing a copy of a 35,000 check that President Trump personally signed from his personal bank account on August 1st Of 2017 when he was president of the United States, pursuant to the coverup which was the basis of my guilty plea to reimburse me. The word used by mr. Trumps tv lawyer for the illegal hush money i paid on his behalf. This 35,000 check was one of 11 Check Installments that was paid throughout the year while he was president. So i play that because if that is an example of the kind of testimony they will illicit, you already have weisselberg speaking through his own handwritten notes on the invoices most important document of the trial. Came in today. Yep. And then youve got mcconney testifying to his role in the sort of back end financial dealings. And ostensibly, what you have is former Personal Assistant at the white house on the witness list for heres the document. Why is that the most important document so far . Tell me. Because its not cohen. Its someone above cohen who really breaks it down in a way, a, that corroborates cohen but b, makes it clear it is reimbursement for a payout and not legal services. You only double, gross up, if youre reimbursing and to make the tax look good. So you have explain that. How it will be explained to a jury. Right. Ladies and gentlemen, weisselberg wrote this down and the calculations were precisely to make cohen whole, which they wouldnt have had to do if he was just paying back an expense hed done, if hed gone out and bought a lot of twinkies for paper clips. You get it back. This you had to do to make it look good. So from that point its camouflaged all the way down. The interesting thing today is how easy it is in the Trump Organization, where trump is the center of control of everything, to basically make i afraud Go All The Way down the line as long as it starts with trump and maybe weisselberg. And theres so much anecdotal testimony to that effect. I mean, again, im not a lawyer. Never worked at the trump org. But ive been a juror. And when youre there, does the story hang together . Pecker said, quote, i am not be a bank. Right . So the money has to come from somewhere for the next story that threatens trumps candidacy in the postaccess hollywood era. Youve got every Single Person whos testified describing him as a tightwad and a micromanager. You cant unheard that as a juror. Beyond reasonable doubt. Its going to be hard to find any doubt in this story. The documentation in there. When you put the witnesses there, when you put the anecdotes in there, theres no other explanation. I think for there to be doubt there has to be, well, this maybe happened. And its pretty hard to come up with that. And i just want to qualify, as you always do, this is not normal. This is a president correct. None of this is normal. This is a president whos being tried in a criminal case. Thats never happened in history. And i know you say it every show, i want to say it, its easy to lose track of that. Its not normal for a criminal. Mobsters do not run afoul of their gag orders as frequently as trump has. I hope he keeps doing it. Really . You want to see that standoff . I want i dont see him shutting up. I just dont think he has do you think he doesnt . Or do you think he cant . I dont think he can. What do you think . Thats the very question. My best guess is he keeps a button in it for a couple more weeks. I think also the trials going faster than people believe. I dont think they have that much to go. I also think youve got to do cohen before the end of the case if youre the prosecutor. So i see him coming, you know, later this week. Devlin, Michael Cohen and Stormy Daniels taking the stand. What do we even gird for on the trump side . It could break his i dont know what his things called. Truthing . Look, these are going to be tough witnesses for trump. But i also think any Defense Lawyer will look at these witnesses as opportunities because Michael Cohen has a history of being a hothead. If you can bring out that side of him, with all due respect to congress, which isnt much, i think the lawyers will be better questioners of Michael Dmoen court than he faced in congress. If you can bait him, you might get him to do something foolish and something selfdestructive. He knows that. But hes also the guy whos been tweeting angrily at trump up until very recently, even during the trial. This is not a guy who seems to convey a ton of good judgment, lets say. Now, that doesnt mean he wont be good on the stand. It means theres an opportunity there for the defense if they can draw that out. I would say that everything you just said, you could put trump at the beginning of the sentence too. Are we ruling out the possibility that trump would have any sort of emotional reaction in front of the jury . I think the possibility for that is highest when Michael Cohens on the stand and when Stormy Daniels is on the stand. Like no question, those are the two people that might irritate him the most. And you saw that kind of reaction in the e. Jean carroll case. We know he can go to that place if hes mad enough. And it really hurt him in the e. Jean carroll case. And well see if it hurts him here. Devlin, thank you so much for joining us from the courthouse. Harry litman, thank you for being back at the courthouse as well. Donny sticks around for the hour. When we come back, how democracy is losing the Propaganda War as the maga right has increasingly marched in lockstep with authoritarian regimes in russia and china, all in an effort to discredit democracy and freedom all Around The World. Its the subject of a terrifying and alarming new piece by our friend Anne Applebaum. Shell join us after a quick break. And later in the broadcast, a victim of one of those authoritarian regimes. Well hear from Basketball Superstar Brittney Griner, who is speaking out for the very first time about being in prison for nearly a year in Vladimir Putins russia. Our dear friend joy reid spoke with griner about her ordeal. Shell be our guest later in the broadcast. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my Metastatic Breast Cancer treatment. And with kisqali, i can have both. 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So this is where we are as a country. And we should all pay close attention. Dont take it from us, anchoring here on msnbc. Take it from a House Republican in his own words on tv out loud. As he just said there, prorussian propaganda has i aplatform and comes out of the mouth of todays republican elected officials. It is part of the focus of Anne Applebaum and her brand new june cover story in the atlantic calls a difficult truth. Writing this, quote, a part of the american political spectrum is not merely a passive recipient of the combined authoritarian narratives that come from russia, china and their ilk but an active participant in creating and spreading them. Like the leaders of those countries, the american maga right also wants americans to believe that their democracy is degenerate, their elections illegitimate, their civilization dying. The goal of spreading antidemocratic Conspiracy Theories is clear. In the short term get donald trump elected again. And applebaum warns of this, quote, trumps second presidency would damage the image of democracy Around The World as well as the stability of Democracy In America even further. Joining us now, the aforementioned Anne Applebaum, staff writer for the atlantic. She writes that cover story on how democracy is losing the new Propaganda War. Donnys back with us. Anne, ive asked colonel vindman. Ive asked a lot of the witnesses in impeachment. Ive asked a lot of russia experts. Ive asked a lot of folks whos winning, The Good Guys or the bad guys. Ive asked liz cheney that question. Nobody says The Good Guys are winning. Nobody says its looking great for american democracy. You write the story. You report it out. Explain. So id like to think that theres always a different tomorrow and wafr we do tay shapes what happens tomorrow. So im not going to talk about winning and losing. My piece is about how authoritarian propaganda has changed. We all remember, some of us remember, the sovietera propaganda when authoritarian states talked about how marvelous they were and how great everything was and how many tractors they produced and how many bails of corn they were exporting. And that was the style of authoritarian propaganda in the 20th century. Nowadays, its very different. Very often its not about promoting the regime but attacking the regimes enemies. And those enemies, whether abroad or at home, often use the same kinds of language. So they attack people use the language of democracy, of open societies, of transparency, of free press, of legitimate opposition. And one of the reasons they do it is because thats the language that the russian opposition uses, that the Hong Kong Protest Movement used, that the iranian Womens Movement used. And the other reason is that we use it. And theyve understood that in order to fight those ideas at home they need to take the message abroad. So you now see both russian and chinese but also now iranian and venezuelan and others, regimes putting out messaging. Some of it is obvious, it comes on their official Television Channels or radio networks. And some of it is laundered. In the piece i talk about this information laundering networks, whereby you open a website, you have no idea its got anything to do with russia, its in spanish, its produced in ecuador, but actually its a vector for russian propaganda. And there are, i mean, dozens if not hundreds of versions of that way of laundering information Around The World. And then as you pointed out in your introduction, a version of it is of course used here as well. And here i suppose the trick line or the punchline or the unexpected part of the story is there are americans, theres a part of the republican far right that uses the same language as well and very often, i mean, literally as you heard the leaders of the house say, literally takes russian Propaganda Lines and then says them, repeats them on the floor of the house or the senate. So that is a thats a new status quo. Its not something that weve experienced before. I remember when we were learning about mike flynns Travels In Moscow and when Senate Republicans were there acting very happy and coy about being there and manafort somehow became Trumps Campaign manager, it all felt curious. But people were reluctant to call it what it is. Theres now, as you said, the same language that putin uses about january 6th, Tucker Carlson uses and trump uses, and its hard to put them in chronological order, they all simply say the same things. The same attacks on multiracial societies. The same attacks on the rule of law. The same attacks on democracy. Theyre verbatim the same. Why was the Republican Party in america so ripe to parrot putins propaganda . I think there are a couple of reasons. One of them was that putin understood very early on that if you use this traditionalist language, you know, the language of, you know, socalled traditional marriages or socalled Family Values that he would find an audience both in russia but also Around The World. I mean, its a strange thing for him to do, especially to describe himself as some kind of leader of a White Christian nation, as he sometimes described be here. You know, russia is even more multicultural than the United States and has a big muslim population. It has an extremely high divorce rate. It has legal abortion. It actually doesnt have the free use of guns. It has very heavy gun control. I mean, its very much not like what the far right here thinks it is. But by using that language and by using this kind of fake religious language, remembering that Put Zinn A Former kgb officer and hardly somebody who was brought up in a religious household, by using that language they created sympathy inside the United States and in the far right in europe and Around The World as well. And then also this language of decay and degeneracy, the world is falling apart, theres a crisis coming, theres a part of the Republican Party in particular that seized on that as a way to change the rules, you know, change the nature of political conversation. They felt they were losing before. In the obama years they thought they were losing the arguments. You know, if we start attacking the system, if we undermine trust, then we can build a new kind of coalition. And they successfully did that. And because putin is trying to do something similar inside russia and to provoke something similar in other countries, unfortunately it worked. Why i mean, i feel like trumps admiration for putin got so interconnected with the unsuccessful efforts to hold him accountable, either in a National Security arena or criminally, that it just got dropped like a hot potato. Trump called for hillarys emails to be released. The next day they were released. It all intertwines with his crisis in his campaign, which is front and center in the criminal trial here in new york. And he continues to serve as cover and shield for putins illegal war in ukraine. Why is everyone numb to what is mccain, if he were still here, lindsey graham, if he hadnt had a political, you know, brain, spine transfer, why is this all sort of accepted now as part of the republican brand . I think there was go ahead. Go ahead, anne. Oh, sorry. I was going to say i think there was a mistake made in trying to see some kind of conspiracy i mean, there were things that happened that happened in secret. Much of trumps sympathy for russia and his sympathy for putin, indeed his sympathy for xi and for the leaders of north korea and other autocrats, is open. He says it. Its not a secret. He tweets it. Yeah. Its all public. We somehow accepted it for that reason. Its interesting. You talked about a numbness. I think as far as the putin stuff and the ukraine stuff, people im not surprised about that, that thats over here. What im surprised about, about the assault on democracy, are the things that hes saying that are going to happen here that will directly affect your life. Next time. Next time. That people are numb to. When hes talking about i want to bring back the insurrection act, when hes talking about going after his political opponents with a weaponized justice department, when hes talking about putting a registry pregnant women in red states. That the things that will affect our freedoms. Forget about putin or whats going on over there. That at this point there is a numbness to. And i dont understand why its not registering. To your point, we talked off camera, maybe its just too early and when we get into these Family Discussions it will change. I know we rely on great pieces of journalism to focus the mind. Anne applebaum, this cover story is indeed that. Thank you so much for spending some time with us to talk about it. Donny sticks around with us. When we come back, our good friend and colleague joy reid will be our ghost with a preview of her tremendous and exclusive interview with Basketball Superstar Brittney Griner. Griner of course was detained in russia for nearly a year, and she talks about it for the first time. Thats next. About it for the fit time thats next. [shaking] itchy pet . with chewy, save 20 on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. Get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] woman ugh, of course it stops loading at the best part. tony hale you need verizon. 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At the first signs, show it to your doctor. And ask if jublia is right for you. Jublia is a Prescription Medicine used to treat toenail fungus. Its most common side effects include ingrown toenail, application site redness. Itching, swelling, burning or stinging, blisters and pain. Jublia is recognized by the apma. Most commercially insured patients may pay as little as 0 copay. Go to jubliarx. Com now to get started. This week wnba superstar Brittney Griner is telling her story in her own words about the harrowing ten months she spent behind bars in russia. During which she was sentenced to nine years in prison and later transferred to a russian penal colony. U. S. Officials say griner was wrongfully detained in February 2022 for Vape Cartridges found in her luggage that contained less than a gram of medically prescribed cannabis oil. In her first Cable News Interview since her arrest griner spoke to my colleague joy reid about the harsh treatment and Prison Conditions and the fear and hopelessness she suffered as what she describes as putins pawn, beginning just one week before putins invasion of ukraine, until her release in a Prisoner Exchange in december of 2022. Watch. How did you process the idea of spending nine years in what then would be a gulag . It was no longer going to be county. It was no longer going to be with the women who had become your support system. This was you going on your own, i think its ik2, by yourself. How did you process just the idea of spending that much time in a foreign prison . I had to tell myself youre an inmate now, youre an inmate. You cant think like oh, this is wrong, im innocent or any of this. You have to just say im an inmate and do what i have to do, whatever thats going to be in the work camp. And yeah, it was tough. When i got back, you know, because your mind starts going, you start adding up the years, my dads this old, hell be this old, like my wife, thats nine years, were planning all the things we had planned to do. Im like thats all on hold. Nephews graduated, nieces in high school. I was like oh my god, my parents might not be here when i get out. And thats when i started to like kind of break internally. Yeah. That was a really hard pill to swallow. Its an extraordinary conversation. And im so glad to be joined by my friend and colleague joy reid. Donny is still with us. Joy, i have a million questions for you. I want to play one more piece of your brilliant interview first, though. Let me play this. This is about the arrest. Talk to me about that moment when you realized that those cartridges had accidentally remained in your bag. In the airport. In russia. It was definitely a freefall. It was just like have you ever been so scared like something just really like to the core. Not a little ghost scare but im talking about really loved one in danger type fear. That feeling is what went through my whole body. I was i literally saw my life flash before my eyes. I was like, its over. B. G. Is no more in that moment. And i was deathly afraid. I cried when i read the i have a verbate of that sound bite. And ive never heard terror described that way but thats what it is. Its such an extraordinary answer you elicit from her there. Absolutely. And this book is extraordinary because it does take you through these harrowing moments where your heart skips a beat. And that moment where she realizes because she hadnt packed her bag herself or she had packed her bag herself and she didnt normally and was packing in a rush. You have to think about it. It was just after valentines day. She had been focused on giving her wife the perfect valentines day because she knew she was going overseas. And so just didnt think about what was in the bag. And when she realized it was there that heartpounding moment. And then when shes being separated from everyone else and when other people are getting through and shes realizing theyre stopping me, theyre not letting me go, and when shes being interrogated in the airport and demanded to sign something in russian that she didnt couldnt read and then they call over someone from like the sort of like a salesclerk to come over and translate and shes not even sure if the translation is real. You just think about where your mind is going. You know, and this is somebody who really, you know, had fallen in love with ekaterinburg russia where she played. She had friends and didnt associate with the authoritarianism, the autocracy of russia because she was in a bubble as a celebrity. Womens basketball is hugely, wildly popular in russia. But at that moment she wasnt a celebrity. She realized she was in a prison and realized she was in a cage on her way to a prison and later to a gulag. Joy, i had Whoopi Goldberg here and she said we want to flirt with trump 2. 0 and authority dwranism, this is what it looks like, the treatment of Brittney Griner. Just say more about this book and her story and this moment. Absolutely. And it goes with the conversation you guys were just happening, which is so important. I think weve had this thing in this country where people have decided that russia is not only not so bad but it is something that we should emulate. That is a society where there arent trials, when you are accused of a crime you are going to be found guilty. Its just a matter of how many years youre going to get. And she had learned very little russian in the time that she played basketball there. But she learned to count to ten. And when she heard that word, devyat, that means nine, she understood what that meant. In her mind this is over. Her father is in her 70s. She assumes he may not survive nine years. He doesnt know how long hell live. Shes thinking about her family. Shes feeling tremendous guilt but also really coming to grips with what russia is. You know, its not the place where you play basketball, where people come up and ask for your autograph because youre, you know, the Gentle Lady Giant that they recognize you immediately because, a, youre black, so you stand out. B, youre 69, you stand out. They know who you are. Youre a celebrity. But now all of those things that made you popular make you a target. She is a black queer 69 woman with curly hair and at times dreadlocks. And all of that made her a target. The guards are pointing and laughing and mocking her in a language she doesnt understand. But she understands that shes different. And then there is another part i think that does go to your previous conversation. When she realizes and comes to realize through her russian lawyers that russia has invaded ukraine, thats when she knows shes in real trouble because now shes an asset to Vladimir Putin and now shes a part of the negotiations. Shes a hostage. And so all of that, plus her fear of never seeing her wife again, never seeing her family again, its all wrapped up in the politics between the United States and russia, which makes it 10, 20, 30 times worse. I want to i have that you shared that clip with us. I want to do three things. I want to show our audience that clip. I want to remind everybody right now well, first of all, joy isnt leaving. I want to bring joy and donny both into the conversation on The Other Side of the break. But just if you had any plans tonight cancel them. Because tonight at 7 00 p. M. You can see this entire conversation. Joys exclusive with Brittney Griner. A quick break, and then joy and donny and i will be right back with more of this. Dont go anywhere. 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Did you get the immediate sense, once you had russian lawyers, one of whom you became very close to, did it become clear to you and to them that putin was going to use you . Oh, yes. 100 . I mean, the few times that i would get the guards to Say Something to me when im like where am i going, am i the only one in the cell, i knew at that time american basketball player had to be by themselves. Im like, well, this is weird because normally, you know, you go into the holding tank with everyone else. Youre in a cell, you dont have a room to yourself in the beginning. Youre with a lot of people. So i already knew that there was Little Things going on. And then the checkins. The top guard was always there. The warden, the deputy warden was always there. So i knew that there was some special treatment, lets keep her good for right now for later on. Were back with joy and donny. Hey, joy, how are you doing . Congratulations. That will be mustsee tv tonight. Im going to even wait to tune into the knick game. She seems brittney seems like an incredible young woman. And with no bitterness, which it was really surprising. Take me through, we hear that word gulag, and its always been this horrific word. Take me through her day and basically what was her day like in this russian gulag . Yeah. And you know, she goes through all of these different kinds of prisons. Shes first in sort of a lockup. Its kind of a jail where first she was alone in isolation and deeply depressed being by herself. Then she makes friends in this group where theyre kind of roommated together. When she gets to the gulag, shes separated from these women that she had bonded with over the course of, you know, a couple of months. And now she has to meet new people. And so theres a has to meet ne. Theres a hierarchy, the woman who is a prisoner too, but the lead prisoner who pushes everyone else around. They make you work. You work like 10, 11 hours a day, and its gruelling. I think she winds up working with the sort of sewing machine folk, and you know, having to basically make the uniforms that other prisoners wear. She finds something that she can do, so that sort of occupies your time and allows you not to just sit and think about your fate all day, but youre talking about bitter, bitter cold. And because of her height and her size, theyre notch uniforms that can fit her. There are no coats that can keep her warm. So shes freezing most of the time and outside a lot of the time. They force you to go out and exercise. There are things theyre making you do. Your whole life is regimented. And shes having to change her whole mentality from the discipline of being an athlete to the discipline of just trying to survive in this alien environment where you cant even understand the insult that is are coming at you, but you know that theyre insults based on the way theyre being delivered. You cant understand the way youre being mocked, you just know that you are. When she did get a chance to talk to her lawyer, theyre communicating back home, theyre desperate for the white house to do something, but they also want manager to be done for trevor reed and for the other families, the families are all asking for help. And so so then youre in this hierarchy of who gets help. The others are military related. Are they going to be given up by putin . What is the biggest asset to trade xa what will they trade you for. At one point donald trump starts crowing hes going to make a trade. When the trade is made for this horrific russian prisoner, he mocks the trade and says they should have left her there and not given this prison nesh back. So youre just a pawn in the politics of the United States, the partisan politics of the United States, and in the disgusting, disgraceful of Vladimir Putin. She ends up writing him a letter. She has to write this letter thats super polite. I asked her what she really wanted to say to him. And she tells me. Thats such a good tease. You are so good. You have to come back after everyone has had a chance to see it. I want to ask how it changed you, but im getting yelled at were out of time. So once again, you can watch joys exclusive interview with Brittney Griner tonight at 7 00 p. M. Eastern, of course, on the reid out. Donny, thank you for spending the hour with us. I love this. Youre welcome. Rit . This is the most who was it who said the groat quote, most fun you can have im not going to say it. Is it dirty . The most fun you can have with your clothes on. Thats clean enough. Another break for us. We all have our clothes on. Well be right back. E our clothes on well be right back. Hi, im michael, ive lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. Most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. But since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. 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That reporting has led to calls for stronger ethics requirements for the Supreme Court justices. Among the other outlets recognized by the committee today were the Washington Post for their examination of the ar15 rifle and the New York Times for its reporting on the israel hamas war. The Committee Also issued a special citation for journalists covering the war in gaza, citing the extraordinary number of journalists who have died in an effort to tell the stories of palestinians. A quick break for us, well be right back. K for us, well be right back Las Vegas Grand Prix choose tmobile for business for 5g solutions. Because tmobile is helping power operations and experiences for hundreds of thousands of fans with reliable 5g connectivity. Nows the time to accelerate your business. Remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer . Was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45 . [both] because i said cologuard® hey there where did he come from . 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