That is right, you cannot ignore those discussions. Thank you to you for putting them front and center, and to david for the good work he does it have a great evening and great weekend, guys. Thank you at home for joining us this evening. One of the most important criminal cases against donald trump has been on lifesupport for weeks now but as of today, it appears that the case will live. The former president will likely have to face trial. For the past two months, we have watched as the Georgia Election interference case against donald trump and 14 Co Defendants devolved into a high stakes sideshow. Several of the defendants in this case accused fani willis of having a relationship with the Special Prosecutor on her team, nathan wade. A relationship that created the Conflict Of Interest. They argued that because of that relationship, fani willis needed to be thrown off the case, a move that would effectively kill any chance of this case ever getting to trial. Last month, d. A. Willis admitted that she and mr. Wade did engage in a romantic relationship for a span of time but maintained it had no bearing on this case. The judge overseeing the case heard hours and hours of testimony to determine when the relationship began, and what, if any, financial benefit fani willis received as a result of that relationship. All of it served to steer attention away from the heart of the case, the conspiracy to overturn the 2020 election. Fani willis herself raised that point during her own dramatic testimony on the stand. Intrusive into peoples personal lives, you are confused. You think i am on trial. These people are on trial for trying to steal an election in 2020. I am not on trial, no matter how hard you try to put me on trial. Today, the judge ruled on if willis can remain on this case. In the 23 page order, judge scott mcafee right , the court finds that the defendants failed to meet their burden of proving that the District Attorney acquire an actual Conflict Of Interest in this case through her personal relationship and recurring travels with her lead prosecutor. However, the establish record now highlights a significant appearance of impropriety that infects the current structure of the prosecution team. As long as wade remains on the case, this unnecessary perception will persist. So, judge mcafee ordered that the case could move forward if nathan wade were to resign. Shortly after the judges order, wade did just that. Now, typically, developers in this case have been binary, each decision by a judge has been considered either a win for the prosecutors or a win for trump and his Co Defendants, but this latest development is not so simple. Legally, this appears to be a win for fani willis, her case will go forward with her leading the charge. But, trump and his team did successfully managed to delay yet another of his many cases, and politically, this case has suffered a blow. The damage from weeks of televised hearings about fani willis Love Life Cannot be undone. It likely has had a real effect on the pool of jurors who will likely hear this case and in order to see this case through, fani willis will have to survive her own reelection this november. This entire sideshow will now be fodder for her critics. Nbc news spoke to Fulton County voters outside of the courthouse today to see what impact this would have on their decision. Reporter could you see your self supporting her again after all of this . No. Reporter why not . It just looks bad, thats all. Overall, it just looks bad. It doesnt pass the smell test. Reporter with this change your opinion of her enough to not support her . No, not really, just because i have lived here my whole life, in Fulton County. Nothing has really changed and none of that really affects me, honestly. It doesnt really affect me, at all. Trump and his allies have lost the battle to stop the case but they have won the battle to delay the case and taint the prosecution in the eyes of at least some members of the propublica and that have been trumps strategy all along. One of the things that has gotten lost in the mixture of all of this is trumps strategy of trying to gin up racist vitriol against each of the black prosecutors leading cases against him. Today in his order, judge scott mcafee charted fani willis for a speech he gave in january at the Bethel Ame Church in which she accused her detractors of racism. The judge said her speech was legally improper, and accused fani willis of casting racial aspersions at the defendants and even suggested that he might impose a gag order On Fani Willis team at some point in the future. But, there has been no official admonition of Donald Trumps overtly racist attacks against fani willis. In speeches and fundraising emails, trump has referred to willis as a racist in his level, unfounded accusations that she was romantically involved with gang members. They say there is a young woman, a young racist in atlanta a racist and they say i guess they say that she was after a certain gang and she ended up having an affair with the head of a gang or a gang member and this is a person that wants to indict me. Shes got a lot of problems. In addition to those baseless spears, trump has attacked fani willis father for being a member of the black panther movement, claiming she comes from a family steeped in haight. In one fundraising email, his Campaign Even makes a point of noting that fani willis name comes from the swahili word for prosperous. I will note that my first language as a child growing up in kenya was swahili and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a name that derives from a 3000yearold language. Since trump started watching those attacks, fani willis has been on the Receiving End of countless racist threats from the public, threats which are likely to continue if trump is allowed to keep spewing Racist Invective against her. From the beginning of this case, trump and his allies have tried to make it against fani willis instead of about the charges against him for trying to overturn an election. Now that the sideshow has ended, how do the prosecutors turn the focus back to the man at the center of the alleged conspiracy . Joining me now, jeremy salon, former District Attorney and Andrew Fleshman, a criminal defense attorney based in atlanta. Good evening to both of you. Thank you for being here tonight. I think the point, andrew, we talk about these procedural things, these motions, these decisions of judges as being a win for one side or the other. It looks interesting that fani willis gets to stay on this trial, in this case. But, is she damaged by this . Yeah. You have seen the judges order. Saying, i wont disqualify her, but the state bar could do something, Fulton County could do something, legislators could do something. So, this is not just a finding that she was potentially dishonest in this case, but an investigation invitation from investigators across the state. What you make of that, jeremy . The idea that the judge did comply that the trump team could put a gag order against her. He has implied that in several places while there was no finding that this relationship was inappropriate and created a conflict in the case, he had a lot to say about her. Absolutely and it is more than a hand slapped. What he is doing is exonerating her from the allegations and making it clear that does not exist. That being said, the appearance, that stench, that order that we heard, that is enough. And saying, you know, you cant do this, you cant pursue this, you cant use those words, you cant act in this way and you have to remove wade otherwise that is going to taint the public. And the public cannot exist the way youre containing yourself. So, strongly worded and more than just a slap on the wrist, but an exoneration at the same time. Andrew, what you make of it . What happens to this case . What are the things that the people watching tonight have to think about in terms of how this case moves forward and What Happens Next . The next step is probably that the attorneys on the case will ask for a certificate, that has to happen in 10 days. Once that gets granted, the Court Of Appeals will decide whether or not they want to take the case. We will know that in a matter of weeks. On whether this is an exoneration, i dont think it is. The judge said he didnt know if they had a relationship before 2022, but that suggests he thought the evidence might show that the witnesses were lying. I feel like it is far from exoneration, it is a pretty serious allegation in this order. In terms of exoneration, the big key here is not so much what was said and what wasnt said, it is the fact that this case can continue. Fulton county still has this case. D. A. Willis still has this case. It can still proceed. It is not dismissed and there were other grounds that were challenged. So by exoneration, this is saying to the people of Fulton County, to d. A. Willis, you can move forward. You have made mistakes. To his point, i agree. By no means is she Out Of The Woods here. But The Big Picture is there is a rico case against the former president of the United States for tampering with the Georgia Election. Is that stopping . Absolutely not. That is moving forward. We are all the way to the point where there are jurors, how does this get handled . Politically, there is whatever is going on, but for a juror, they have to listen to the case, the indictments, and the facts presented, and the defense. How does any of this affect how this moves forward . I honestly dont think it will have much impact on jurors. You have heard here, most people dont have too strong of an opinion. We know that people, generally, are reasonable. I think we will be able to find a jury in this case you can disregard allegations for both sides and focus on the evidence. Jeremy, lets talk about this idea that donald trump goes against you know, goes after his prosecutors, he goes after most judges, except in the maralago case. Does this kind of thing have an effect . This didnt actually come from donald trump. The allegations against fani willis came from one of the Co Defendants, who digs up dirt on people. He got charged and he decided to dig up dirt On Fani Willis. What is the effect this has on prosecutors, d. A. S quacks what is the Threat Environment . You have to have a wall that puts yourself away from an outside force and it is sometimes very difficult especially when it comes in the form of not just words, but that white powder you hear about, actual threats. It is very despicable and deplorable but at the same time a prosecutor understands it is not an easy job and you dont take a case because it is an easy case. You take it because you believe that is what justice requires. I still think they are going to march forward and do what they need to do, continue to investigate whatever they need to investigate and donald trump will always be there rabble rousing, to put it nicely. The worst thing hes doing is not necessarily to the prosecutors. The worst thing he is doing is to all of us in the entire United States, to really diminish the judiciary, the criminal justice system, to cause people to have doubt all the time. That really is terrible for all of us, for us who believe in a fair trial. So, yes, prosecutors are going to have that in their mind but they are going to wall it off and move forward. This is what justice requires. Lets talk about the d. A. It is an elected position. The governor of georgia has introduced a bill to deal with what he calls rogue local prosecutors. Fani willis is up for election in a november. Against a handful of people, they have different opinions on how this would affect their decision to vote. What with that environment due to this case . The stuff the government is doing, the fact that fani willis is an elected, not appointed d. A. . You have seen how does politics play out in the court. We have seen fani willis testified in an unprofessional way, as described by the judge because she was appealing to voters. That is going to be happening. Donald trump is going to keep saying stuff, Fulton County is going to want to respond and this Election Environment makes it hard to raise questions in the minds of voters that this is a fixed process. What you think about the gag orders . Scott mcafee, the judge, suggested that the team might find a gag order suitable against fani willis. Fani willis has tried to get a gag order trump for the things he says about her. Tell me about that . I think any prosecutor should take a lesson from jack smith and that is you stick to what is in that indictment and the courtroom. There is no reason to play this out in the media, that is not what this is about. I think frankly, gag order on all parties, assuming it can be limited in a way that doesnt impact your ability to defend yourself and your case is really valuable because there are so many distractions. The public doesnt need to hear, the public doesnt need to listen to. The gag order especially, as it becomes more bombastic and we are getting closer to the elections, is necessary. That doesnt mean willis is immune from it, either. She should not be out there on the stoop, if you will, doing the same but different thing as the former president. I think a gag order might be appropriate as long as it is in a very limited way. Lets talk about the actual case, andrew. Judge mack if he got rid of some of the charges and there is still a lot of charges there. Is the case looking as strong as it was before all of this started happening . Yeah. I mean, these charges were not specific enough, only six counts that were already part of the rico charge. They are going to talk about the exact same evidence at trial as they would have without that order and on top of that, the exposure is basically the same. It doesnt affect the case in any meaningful way. Guys, thank you very much. A more come to get it issue then it looked like on the surface. I appreciate the analysis from both of you. Jeremy solano, a former attorney in the manhattan division, Andrew Fleshman is a criminal defense attorney. We thank you for your time. Much more ahead tonight including russian citizens protesting Vladimir Putins democratic rule as voting begins in the president ial election. First, the first of trumps criminal case is set to go to trial, the judge today delayed it for at least 30 days. What that means for trumps chances of ever facing trial before election day. That is coming up. Including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. A rare, lifethreatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. Stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. Farxiga sometimes your work shirt needs to be for more than just work. Like when it needs to be a big soft shoulder to cry on. 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And some of my favorite moments throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. Now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. Giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. Delay, delay, the name of the game for donald trump and his legal team as they go through four cases facing the former president. Three of trumps criminal cases had Question Marks hanging over them with trial dates, but his Hush Money Case in new york was all set to start on march 25th. Now, today, the judge in that case agreed to push the trial back at least 30 days until at least mid april until trumps attorneys asked for a delay of 90 days. Why did team trump want a delay . Because they were given new records that they say they need time to review before the trial. The records come from the u. S. Attorneys office in the Southern District of new york, which successfully prosecuted the former trump lawyer, michael cohen, back in 2018, and at least a subset of them may be relevant to trumps case. But, why was trumps team just given these new documents . Because they waited to ask for them until january 18th of this year. Meanwhile, the manhattan d. A. , alvin bragg, made his request for these materials more than a year ago, and disclosed to trumps legal team in june of last year. I dont know what they were doing from june of last year until january of this year. If team trump wasnt happy with the original records request last year, they could have said nothing. But instead, they waited seven months to raise their hands and complain. All of this leads to one important question, will the former president ever be criminally held accountable . Joining me now was joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst, and professor at the Alabama School of law. Lets talk very specifically, very generally speaking, the delay tactic is when he has used by all sorts of defendants and one that has been used very effectively by donald trump but in this particular manhattan case, the circumstances of this discovery, these documents that trumps team says it needs time to look at, tell me about this. This is such a confusing situation. This is a case that was filed by the manhattan d. A. State prosecutor. But, because the feds, the United States Attorneys Office in the Southern District of new york had a related case, you will recall the prosecution of michael you just mentioned, it is possible that they may just have the materials in their possession. So, being good prosecutors, the folks in the manhattan d. A. S Office Reached out to the u. S. Attorneys office, asked for what they had, they were given some documents, which they turned over to trumps folks. Much more recently, the trumps folks sent a subpoena to the Southern District of new york. We dont know if that request is identical, by the way, for what the manhattan d. A. S office asked for, or if it is different in nature. But now, the Trump Lawyers are back in court with the District Attorney in front of judge marchand saying, you know, the d. A. S office didnt comply with its Discovery Operations to us and the red herring here is that the manhattan d. A. S office is not the United States Attorneys Office. If there was a problem with producing documents for the u. S. Attorneys office, well, that is between them and trumps lawyers. The judges said, this is a mess. There are significant factual issues here that i need to resolve and that is why he set this whole mess for a hearing. For those of us in the audience and sometimes on the side of the camera who are not legally trained, this seems to be the kind of thing that we hear a lot about in the lot of the cases. Maralago has to do with documents so it is really important that everybody gets to see what they want to see, but you have prosecuted many cases, how long can one delay for, based on needing access to documents and being able to digest them properly . So, i think the good news here is that the judge is keeping this all on very short leash, even to the point of telling all the lawyers, dont release your calendars, we can still be going back to trial. The defendants have Due Process Rights to see all the discovery they are entitled to see, so if the judge determines that the trump folks are determined entitled to all of this discovery from the Southern District of new york, he will give them time to process it. The reality is, at this stage in the production, the d. A. Said there have been about 100,000 documents from the u. S. Attorneys office so far since early march. More are expected. It sounds like a lot, but there are some very highpowered programs that are used for scanning through these documents to determine what is relevant. It is not as big of a task as it sounds it might be. And in fact, the d. A. Said in these initial documents, in fewer than 200 of the documents, were relevant to this trial. So, it may be a much smaller problem then it looks like on paper. Judge marchand says there will be a hearing on march 25th, the day that the trial was going to start. Is that in this continued effort to try to waive through this mess of requests and documents, things like that . So, it makes sense for the judge to do this. He has to get a good idea of what went on here. He has asked both sides to submit to him a timeline, the reversion of how this Discovery Mess got hashed out. And then, he will look at that, and he will see if the District Attorneys office has made mistakes, if they violated their obligations. He has broad discretion, by the way, as a New York State judge to impose sanctions up to and including dismissal of a prosecution. In an extreme case, that is very unlikely here. But, he will scrutinize the facts to see who is at fault. Joyce, it is excellent to see you. Thank you for doing what you always do. I never know, going into these things, how to explain this to someone else and you always help me do that, so i always appreciate that. Joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst. Thank you for joining me. Still to come tonight, the former Vice President once raised his hand in a pledge to support the partys eventual nominee, but that was then and this is now. We will explain point plus, some russians are risking putins wrath at the ballot box. That is next. Next. Oh. Stuffed up again . So congested you need sinex saline from vicks. Just sinex, breathe, ahhhh what is wow sinex. Breathe. Ahhhhhh j. P. Morgan Wealth Management knows its easy to get lost in investment research. 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But the reality for this man and for every other russian citizen voting over the next two days is that the choice has already been made. Vladimir putin is expected to be reelected to a fifth six year term by the time voting ends on sunday. Here he is in video put out by the kremlin today sitting down at his computer and clicking one button to vote online. So easy is win will keep him in power until 2030. His grip on power, longer than any leader since stalin. A Landslide Victory is a foregone conclusion, given the way the kremlin has centralized power and stifled dissent. The candidates running against him, the ones who have been approved to run against him, they support the kremlin, they refused to say anything that would remotely sound like criticism of putin. The opposition figures who could actually pose a challenge to putins stranglehold on power are jailed. Like the optimist, activist, Alexi Novotny who collapsed in a remote prison, or forced to live in exile like the widow, who has urged people to protest pete pulls election. It seems some russians may be heating her call. Today, several russians were arrested for pouring green dye into ballot boxes. Green dye, by the way, has been used to attack journalists and opposition figures in the country including navalny. Also today, a Woman Set Fire to a voting booth in a district where navalny used to live. If she is charged, she faces up to five years in jail. In putins hometown, st. Petersburg, a woman through a Molotov Cocktail outside a polling station. She was arrested. Even though these people know that this election is rigged, that putin will win, they are still willing to risk imprisonment to make their voice heard, to stand up to an institution that has tried to snuff out any form of opposition. Meanwhile, Vladimir Putin though an enemy of democracy has admirers right here in america, including the presumptive nominee for the republican nomination, who has never really met a strongman he didnt praise, and that is leading to worries that, should trump win the general election in november, he could try to model himself after putin. But, there is another autocratic figure who one expert things is a better predictor of what trump 2. 0 will look like. I will talk to that expert, next. Next. [ ] how you feel can be affected by the bacteria in your gut. Try new align probiotic bloating relief plus food digestion. It contains a probiotic to help relieve occasional bloating, plus vitamin b12 to aid digestion. Try align probiotic. Generalized Myasthenia Gravis made my life a lot harder. But the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. Vyvgart is for adults with generalized Myasthenia Gravis who are antiachr antibody positive. 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Jude, the mission is just something that everyone can truly get behind. Look at our little st. Jude pin there on the fridge were just regular people donating. Yeah. And i think its cool to be able to make a difference in someones lives in a way that is meaningful. That grimy film on your teeth . Dr. G . its actually the buildup of Plaque Bacteria which can cause cavities. Most toothpastes quit working in minutes. But crest prohealths antibacterial fluoride protects all day. It stops cavities before they start. Crest. Victor or von said you told him that you wanted to cut funding for ukraine as soon as you get there. He said that in an interview. Is he correct . Is that the plan . First of all, he is a fantastic guy, and he has taken in no illegal immigrants. He runs his country very tough. When thinking about who trump is trying to emulate on the international stage, it is tempting to think of Vladimir Putin, the two are very fond of one another, but jacob hagen, a fellow at the Senior Counsel looks at trump a little bit differently. In his new book, america laughs the right century long relationship with foreign dictators. He writes that it is not as bold and brash as that of Vladimir Putin. You dont see trumps people mysteriously falling out of windows. He argues that trumps playbook appears to mirror that of the autocratic prime minister, viktor orban. It is a slow creep of fascism, the kind of xenophobic fascism the american right used to flirt with in the 1920s. So, what can Viktor Orbans hungary teach us about the projection of the american right right now . And what should we expect, if donald trump regains power . Joining us now is jacob halperin, editor of the national interest, senior fellow of the Atlantic Council and author of the book, america laughs the rights century long relationship with foreign dictators. Our democracy may go sour, may go wrong, but not in the way of the movies, not in the way of revolution and dictators who eliminate the vote and suppressed democracy. What victor or von is doing, in turkey, in india, is the subtle form of silencing dissent, and taking control of these levers of power. It is a Creeping Form of authoritarianism which actually started back in the roman empire. I quoted Edward Gibbon talking about, i got the roman emperor, augustus, as a subtle tyrant. I think that is exactly what viktor orban has done in hungry, where he has sidelined a judiciary, he has sold off the media to his cronies, he has ensured that elections are gerrymandered so that his opponents simply cannot win, elections are still conducted. This is the blueprint that donald trump would love to emulate here in the United States. And we are seeing a copy, we are seeing conservative groups, conservative, rightwing so called journalists going and visiting with , comes her to speak, he speaks at major conservative conventions and some of the things he uses are things we see here, an urban, rural divide like they have in hungary where people think what orban is doing doesnt make a lot of sense yet he wins overwhelmingly with a rural vote. Hard line on immigration and the idea that immigrants into hungary will dilute hungarian this and the hungary language. These are things we see direct translations to with donald trump. Definitely. It is uncanny, the parallels. They do extend to putin, too, who relies on a rural base and has opposition in st. Petersburg and moscow. But, they have tapped into this resentment to try to not simply win elections here in the United States, but actually overturn what they call the regime. If you talk to conservatives today, they dont consider us to have a legitimate government. They are talking about christian nationalism, and they refer to the government here as a regime. Regime means it can be toppled, overturned, and replaced with an autocracy in their mold, in what they see as the right way to govern the United States. So, the similarity to hungary and some of the other places i mentioned, is that this creeping fascism, this subtle dictatorship, it is given, that power is given to these leaders. It is not a revolution, it is not a military coup. People vote their rights away, willingly. Why . We saw this happen in germany in the 1930s when germany hitler came to power. Lets not forget, he staged a coup in 1923, learns a lesson, he failed. He is appointed in a Coalition Government on january 30th, 1933. He doesnt terminate german democracy immediately. He does it over a couple of months. And then, the nazis consolidated their power year after year. Again, i dont think that is quite the formula we are talking about here. What we are talking about is a form of oligarchy. Right now, you have Jared Kushner and Richard Grenell who is being touted as potential Secretary Of State and the New York Times reports today that they are engaging in deals in the balkans for hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. What is going on . That oligarchy is the interesting part. This idea that people profit off of this, and they utilize the levers of power. A lot of people that is what they think politics is but when you look at a place like hungary, that is true. The people in power it is a quid pro quo. It is a you scratch my back, i will scratch yours, we keep each other in power. In the end, it is all about the graft. Orban is exploiting the so called Immigration Crisis just the way trump is attempting to do it on the side of the border right now. But, broadly, these are useful issues to claim power. And then, it is about monetizing it for the family. That is exactly what we are seeing with the trump family, right now, as the republicans claim that hunter biden is some kind of napoleon of crime when, in fact, as we see kushner and grenell and trump himself engaging in deals in the middle east. So, that is where i think the United States would be headed, toward a kleptocracy. Let me ask you about that clip we played on the way in, where someone was asking donald trump about whether or not he had told orban he will give power up on ukraine. Obviously, Vladimir Putin is looking at that very keenly. Viktor orban is the most resistant nato leader of the bunch. He has always been the slowest, the one who has been holding up stuff to ukraine. What is in it for these guys to prop up Vladimir Putin . They want to create an illiberal international, as contradictory as that may sound for nationalists. Is functioning as The Go Between between trump, and putin. Trump fetishize his strength. He sees democracy as this inherently week. He would like to cut deals with putin, extricate the United States from nato, have putin establish a sphere of influence. Hungary would benefit from this, as well. They actually have designs on the Carpathian Mountains in ukrainian territory. So, it would be a winwin situation for all three leaders. I appreciate the work you have done to let us all know about this. Dont give away your democracy. Jacob heilbrunn is the author of america last the rights centurylong romance with foreign dictators. Thank you for your time tonight. Just to note that tomorrow morning on my own show, i will be interviewing evgenia, a human rights activist, and the wife of the political prisoner who i last interviewed the day before his arrest, and continues to write off meds from prison inside russia. That is tomorrow morning here on msnbc. One more story tonight, mike pence became the latest high profile Trump Administration official to say that he will not endorse his former boss candidacy. Is that a move that will affect Republican Voters . That is up next. Stay with us. Ay with us. Okay yall we got ten orders coming in. Big orders starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant. Thats a different story. I couldnt slow down. We were starting a business from the ground up. People were showing up left and right. And so did our Business Needs the chase ink card made it easy. When you go for Something Big like this, your kids see that. And they believe they can do the same. Earn unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. Make more of whats yours. He hits his mark center stage and is crushed by a baby grand piano. Youre replacing me . Customize and save with liberty bibberty. He doesnt even have a mustache. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. 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Fast reliable speeds right where you need them. Thats walltowall wifi on the xfinity 10g network. Will you be endorsing your former president . You were on the ticket with him last time around . Well, martha, i appreciate the question. And it should come as no surprise that i will not be endorsing donald trump this year. Well, actually it comes as a teeny bit of a surprise. As a candidate, pence largely avoided discussing pences actions on january 26 to put his own life in danger, and he did tentatively raise his hand at a debate to say that yes, he would support trump as the nominee even if he were convicted of crimes. Pence now joins an insanely long list of former Trump Administration officials who are refusing to support him this time around. Yet trumps support among the voters shows no sign of slowing. Trump is on the glide path to the republican nomination, despite 88 criminal counts, and fairs well in general polling matchups with president biden. Well bidens every utterance is now matched. The lifefilled rallies go largely ignored. The new yorker, Susan Glasser, recently watched one trump rally from start to finish. It is easiest to understand the threat that trump poses to american democracy most clearly when you see it for yourself. Small clips of his craziness can be too easily dismissed as the Background Noise of our times. Watch his speeches, share them widely, dont look away. Joining us now is Susan Glasser for the new yorker. Thank you for being with us. This is such an important discussion because its really the ongoing Media Criticism of our time. Too little trump, too much trump. Dont do what you did in 2016. So this is the big question. Increasingly im hearing from people like you. Not only listen to trump, not only watch him, maybe even go to a rally to finally understand what it is thats happening in this country. Well, look, apologies in advance by the way. Im not saying this is necessarily good for your soul or uplifting in any way. It is an exhausting experience to just put yourself in this frame that rallied the other night in georgia was one hour and 55 minutes, donald trump, lying, rambling, ranting, much of it doesnt make much sense as you know for years hes struggled with the basics of a verb and a period. Youre not going to find a lot of those there. Even beyond the delivery and certainly when it comes to age, you will come away with a performance like this and this is a guy who really struggles with his words, who is visibly diminished in his vocabulary and his delivery, just in the last few years. But beyond that, it is the substance of what trump was saying this time that really caught my attention as someone who has been paying close attention, both in 2016 and in 2020. There is something, you know, different this time. It is not just the level of grievance and revenge and retribution. Its actually the house scape. It is much worse and darker than even the american carnage speech frankly. I was going to say, were used to that right from the beginning of trump from his inauguration. From pulling out of the climate accord. He decided thats the way it goes. It continues to work. It is increasingly not working for some big names. So we just heard from mike pence, john kelly, mark esper, rick tillerson, h. R. Mcmaster. So tell me about this, increasingly there are big names who dont want to be associated with this guy even if he wins again. Yet its not affecting him at the base . Well, thats right. I mean this is a party in some ways that is a captive and youll see that for the rational and some of the Senior Republicans like Mitch Mcconnell who have essentially thrown away their principles and gone ahead and endorsed donald trump. And who have acknowledged privately, look, what am i suppose to do . They run 10, 20 ahead of me with my own voter. So i think you see the party that is almost hostage to a subset of its own electric. Thats number one. Number two, they will show you there is no such thing as an elder statesman in this day in age and basically the party doesnt care what those Authority Figures think. And one of the things that youll write about here are the lies. And most people just tap them on their streets and talk about the election denial and there were over things. You write Something Interesting and the platform is being built on lies. Not just the old familiar lies about the rigged election. Now joined bit equally flamboyant new set of the untruths about bidens presidency. Tell me more about that . You know, i was really struck by this one. Even compared with 2016, biden never said this stuff about obama when he was first running. Even hillary clinton. He basically said that joe biden is both a drooling incompetent, you know, old man, but also a criminal mastermind who has weaponized the government around him. And he created a company where joe biden is ordering gangs of murderers and thugs, you know, into our country to kill innocent people. He lays this all very directly at the foot of the incumbent in a way that that would have been the biggest news in any other campaign of our lifetime. This is like really important on steroids and the way that hes talking to his adoring cheering crowds and he literally accuses the president of basically unleashing gangs of murderers in the country. And people just bat an eye. They dont even Pay Attention to donald trump when he says these things. I just talked to jacob halbrin. One of the things people dont take seriously is whether or not trump has authoritarian impulses or not. And what is your take . So, by the way, that book is a terrific book, and ive read the book, and i highly recommend it. What it shows, it is not just a question of authoritarian impulses. But i think for donald trump, when i hear him saying in 2024 is essentially my platform is me. My platform is not only whatever i think, but i am the solution to all your problems, which is a direct echo since the invasion of ukraine and magically the border will close and that economy will inflate at the joy of having me as your meter. Susan, thank you for an amazing piece and thank you for being with us. Thats the show for tonight. You can catch me back here tomorrow and sunday at my usual slot. Ill be joined by the prize winning journalist Nikole Hannah jones, where she exposes the Conservative Movement to roll back and even reverse racial progress in america. And when i visited gaza in 2019, i first met this woman, a remarkable young entrepreneur who developed compact solar chargers to help gazans cope with routine power outages. The family has endured devastating losses since then. She and her brother, kamal, made it out of gaza. They will join me live right here on this set tomorrow. However, before that, we have something amazing for you right now, a Special Edition of the trump indictments, cohosted by Andrew Weissman and Melissa Murray starts now. Good evening and welcome to a special hour