Little january 6th insurrection. The highest court in the land today kept him on the ballot in a ruling a dodges the facts of january 6th and trumps role in it. Instead, the Supreme Court handed trump a second gift on a constitutional technicality. The justices say that states do not have the power to bar candidates from running for federal office. They say, quote, because the constitution makes Congress Rather than the states responsible for enforcing section 3 against federal Office Holders and candidates, we reverse. Theyre referring to the decision by the Colorado State Supreme Court. Now, that court found that trump did engage in insurrection by trying to overturn the will of the voters by any means possible, including violence, and that section 3 of the 14th Amendment does, in fact, apply to the presidency. Now, the Supreme Courts decision today does not touch on either the question of whether trump is or is not an insurrectionist, or whether the text of section 3 applies to him. Instead, it says that only congress has the power to do anything or to enforce the 14th Amendment. Colorado secretary jenna griswell, point out, if we had a functioning congress, we would not t be in this situation today. The liberal justices blasted the majority for closing the door on the possibility of Federal Courts Disqualifying Trump or any other candidate who would engage in an insurrection, writing, quote, section 3 serves an important, though rarely needed role in our democracy. The American People have the power to vote for and elect candidates for national office. And that is a great and a glorious thing. The man who drafted and ratified the 14th Amendment had witnessed an insurrection and rebellion to defend slavery and they wanted to ensure that those who had participated in the insurrection and in possible future insurrections could not return to prominent roles. Today the majority goes beyond the necessities of this case to limit how section 3 can bar an oathbreaking insurrectionist from becoming the president. Although we agree that colorado cannot enforce section 3, we protest the majoritys effort to use this case to define the limits of federal enforcement of that provision. Thats where we start today with some of our most favorite experts and friends. Former lead investigator is back with us, he testified in the colorado case when it was in front of the states court. Senior editor for slate is back with us. With me at the table, once again, former top official at the Department Of Justice and msnbc legal analyst Andrew Weissmann is here and Princeton University professor and distinguished political scholar at the table. So nice to see you, my friends. Let me start with Andrew Weissmann. What did the Supreme Court say and do today . So they did a lot more than we thought they would do. Everyone after the Oral Argument thought that trump would be allowed to be on the ballot in colorado, and frankly, any of the other states. And just explain why we knew that. Because the argument a lot of times people say you really cant tell from an argument. There was just no friendly question and you had no friendly question, you had a legitimate argument, and you had sort of the atmospherics of the court being we dont want to be the ones deciding this. The reason they went further and the reason this is a 54 decision is where it sort of went. Everyone agreed he can be on the ballot in colorado and that the states cannot decide this. The reason its 54, and notably the men versus the women, which was just a remarkable split, was that they said this applies not just to the presidency, but all federal Office Holders. The big sort of 54 split was that the majority said only its not that the states cant do it, its that only congress can do it. So youre picking the one institution that is completely dysfunctional and isnt going to do it. So if you want the big picture, you want to read this provision out of the constitution, the only way to do it is to stay congress has to enact legislation to implement section 3. No room for the courts, the federal courts to step in. Thats the part where Amy Coney Barrett said, why do we need to reach that . You are needlessly inflaming in a Political Year the issue, when our job in the court should be to try to just decide this issue and lower the volume. Lowering the volume by not weighing in on whether he is or is not an insurrectionist . Yeah, it doesnt touch the core facts. The Supreme Court decides questions of law, not questions of fact. They found that section 3 of the 14th Amendment could not be invoked by a state government, it has to be invoked by congress, some of the justices went further and said it will take enabling legislation. What america should take away is thats a question of law, not a question of fact. The Supreme Court didnt find that colorado was wrong in its finding that a former president engaged in insurrection. They actually found that he did, several states have similarly found, much as our committee recommended. And those are the allegations, the factual allegations that are going to come before federal juries barring a Supreme Court ruling on an Immunity Question down the road. Its a victory for the president because it keeps them on the ballot. It just doesnt touch really the core issue, whether or not what he did on and whether january 6th was criminal. We found that it was, Special Counsel has alleged that it is, and ideally a jury will get to decide that question in some months. Ideally. Let me show you what a judge said on this show, were down in the weeds but i think our viewers alongside me, weve all earned our honorary law degrees. So its a little technical. Consider yourself warned. Here is the judge offering a different legal analysis. It is not necessary in order for the former president to be disqualified, or for any other person who comes within the ambit of section 3 to be disqualified that he or she have been convicted of an insurrection or rebellion, nor is it necessary that the congress of the United States have found that the former president or any other person have engaged in nurkz or rebellion against the constitution of the United States. Thats what we call in constitutional law, the selfexecuting character, if you will. Of section 3. It does not require a congressional finding, and it does not require a criminal conviction. I guess whats so amazing, ive been back in the chair six days and this is the second day where another body is i guess its the same body that stunt doesnt want to deal with the insurrection thing. Trump carried out an insurrection, by november it will be part of his convention video. Its who he is, hes running as an insurrectionist, hes running on pardoning his fellow insurrectionists, the accomplices in congress are into it and those who werent are retiring or resigning. The Supreme Court is, maybe that didnt happen, maybe not, the voters will get to see the facts in the case against him. Its such an interesting problem, because on the one hand, you have the court performing what looks like some version of institutional humility, who are we to decide whether an insurrection happened, who are we to decide these complicated questions. Congress has to decide. That looks like its a kind of democracy expanding democracy affirming move and its very much, i think, in line with the were umpires, balls and strikes people, we do as little as possible. I guess i would just note two things in response to that. One is, and this comes up in the concurrence that the three liberals offer, which is they literally main check dobbs and say all you needed to do was do what chief Justice Roberts said we do in dobbs, which is decide as little as possible. The court clearly did not do that today. They foreclosed a whole bunch of different avenues. But, also, this is where its really sneaky, the court doesnt actually tell us what that enabling legislation would look like. So even if congress could shake it off, get it together, write some kind of meaningful legislation that could, in fact, knock an insurrectionist off the ballot, the Court Reserves to itself the power to tell us whether or not thats okay. So it is both the most Bragging Humility and humble bragging in the history. Its strange for them to want to stay out of it, yet putting a sum on the scale for donald trump. Im not a lawyer by any stretch of the imagination you say that every day. But i keep thinking about the historical parallels. Im thinking about the civil war amendments and radical reconstruction between 1863 and 1877 and the context of the 14th Amendment in response to Andrew Johnsons refusal to hold the south accountable. I mean, we have literally traitors who are running for office, who are taking hold of the reins of power in the south, after leaving over 600,000 people on the battlefield dead. And people are, like, no, we have to hold these folks accountable. So the civil war amendments emerged in the context of section 3, it emerges to hold folk accountable. Here we have in this context hence tans to hold him accountable, and its a historical echo that screams with irony. I dont want to make it relative, but the thing that is so egregious is that at least there there was some sense of the south will rise again, defending a cultural rival. Here its all a lie, and they know it because they went back to congress on the same ballots. Yeah, again, were at this inflection point, and whats so striking about the moment in the context of the collapse of radical reconstruction is that we went into a dark period that didnt open up until the mid20th century. Here we are at that moment, and the courts played a central role in ushering that dark period. Here we are in this moment again, and it seems to me im not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the court is playing another central role in ushering the shadows. Its not the only echo, right . What jack smith has charged also draws on some of the legal toolkit that emerged from this stain on our countrys history. So i wanted to somewhat complicate the picture, which is you do have the three liberal justices joining in the idea that the states should not be able to do this. They wouldnt go far as to say it should only be congress, but theres no way to just dismiss the case unless you think the three liberal justices got the law wrong. They go along with the actual principle here. But it is 54 explain that. Its about chaos. Exactly. The idea is that everyone, all nine say we just dont even though its been the system so far, nobody has paid attention to it because it hasnt involved a major candidate, and now that its sort of come to the fore and theres a major candidate, they said we cant have each state deciding for themselves when its a federal office. When its a federal office, there needs to be a federal decision. Thats something that all nine justices agree on. So its hard to just say, oh, this is just a politicized Supreme Court. Where i think there is a correct view, and thats where i think the 54 part of this is relevant, the context were in is a pending case now where the former president is saying that he is immune, and you cant look at this decision without knowing what theyre doing in that case. They have given him not one win and were going to split the baby and give him a loss. The stay that is in effect now, which they are slow walking and were not even hearing the arguments for two months on a case that is ready to be argued. Everyone knows this. There is a stay that is delaying the case that was going to start today. So these are two wins that are being given by this court. Theres no way that the three justices in the sort of essentially the dissent today, think that the timing is appropriate. Theres no reason to have delayed it. So you really end up with a Supreme Court, even if you want to think theres some merit to this case, its hard to disaggregate it and not see the court in its two cases saying, what can we do to help donald trump . We are going to make sure that this will only be decided not in a court of law, but in the court of spin and disinformation where donald trump lives, and there will actually not be sort of legal accountability. The court is removing that. Either in this decision or in its Immunity Decision, because they basically are saying were not hearing that and were sitting on that. So the chances of it going in court could be zero. And i would say theres a possibility theyre oblivious to that, but we know theyre not, theyre some of the most voracious consumers of their own press than any other american institution. Its one of the great mysteries, for those of us who thought and i know weve been talking about this for two years now, that the court was sensitive to plummeting approval ratings, to a complete lack of confidence from the public. We all thought, this is a court that knows how to pump the brakes, this is a court that knows how to do a little Razzle Dazzle to confuse us about the fact that it certainly is carrying water, i think now we can say, for one person and doesnt carry water for multiple criminal defendants ever, some of whom are wrongfully accused. And i think part of the answer is what andrew just said, which is theres an amazing split in this decision. I also think its not an accident that its the women who are taking the position that this is really a question of institutional integrity, confidence in the institution, Justice Barrett writes for herself alone essentially saying some version of, dont worry, were not mad at each other, were all cool here, lets take the temperature down. So i think there is a really interesting split between those who are deeply worried about how this impacts the institution and the sort of Public Integrity and reputation of the institution, and the folks in that kind of majority, the folks who signed and say nothing else, who dont seem to be bothered at all about the fact that the election is coming, theyre not making Proclamation Bsby the insurrection. And, by the way, weve got major gun cases, major deregulatory cases, hurtling at us. Theyre all going to get decided in june at the same time. I want to stay on this theme of what the public is left to sift through and i want to spend a lot of time on the evidence developed in the most transparent manner by the probe. Ill send some time with tim on the other side of a quick break. No one is going anywhere. Still to come, the longtime lieutenant of the Trump Organization, the business side, Allen Weisselberg, is likely headed back to Rikers Island all in service of protecting his longtime xboss, donald j. Trump. Another person close to the expresident Pleading Guilty for lying under oath. What it might mean for Donald Trumps first criminal trial in new york that gets under way in three weeks. Plus, President Joe Biden preparing for an ugly political fight come november. In an interview out today, President Joe Biden saying we should all be prepared for donald trump not to concede should he lose again, adding that losers who are losers are never graceful. More from that interview just ahead. Later in the broadcast, our autocracy in america series continues with someone who personally had the job of briefing then President Donald Trump on the most Sensitive National security secrets in the land inside the oval office. The Principal Deputy director with decades of experience in the intelligence committee, with warning how a Second Trump Administration will compromise the nations computer. We continue after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Where. Yep, tough day at work, nice cruise will sort you right out. When im riding, im not even thinking about my painful cavity. Well, you shouldnt ignore that. And every time i get stressed about having to pay my bills, i just hop on the bike, man. Oh, come on, man, you got to pay your bills. You dont have to worry about anything when youre protected by americas numberone motorcycle insurer. Well, you definitely do. Those things arent related, so. Ah, yee oh, that is a vibrating pain. Her uncles unhappy. Ah, yee im sensing an underlying issue. Its tmobile. It started when we got him under a new plan. But then they unexpectedly unraveled their price lock guarantee. Which has made him, a bit. Unruly. You called yourself the uncarrier. You sing about price lock on those commercials. The price lock, the price lock. So, if you could change the price, change the name its not a lock, i know a lock. So how can we undo the damage . We could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. Their connection is unreal. And we could all unexperience this whole session. Okay, thats uncalled for. Well see what happens in the courts. If you look at the select committees work, we made a criminal referral with respect to the part of the 14th Amendment that talks about providing aid and comfort to an insurrection. I certainly believe that Donald Trumps behavior rose to that level. I believe that he ought to be disqualified from Holding Office in the future. Its working its way through the courts, and in the meantime, we have to be prepared to ensure that we can defeat him at the ballot box, which ultimately i believe well be able to do. So, tim, this was part of what the committee referred. Explain that. Yeah, we found very specifically and included in our report a referral of incitement of insurrection. Again, theres a factual narrative here that has been evident for a long, long time that the president s actions leading up to january 6th and then on that day itself were intended, specifically intended to disrupt the joint session and prevent the transfer of power. Thats the core factual allegation that was evident to the select committee. And i believe its only gotten more evident when the Special Counsel has had access to information that was beyond the reach of the select committee. Thats why this Immunity Decision is so much more ultimately important for the rule of law than todays decision on the 14th Amendment. I dont want to minimize todays decision. I agree with miss cheney theres a basis to disqualify him under section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Putting that aside, very important that those same facts are adjudicate in a criminal proceeding later this year. Look, i am heartened to disagree with Andrew A Little Bit that the Supreme Court issued its decision today just ahead of the colorado primary. It does suggest that theyre mindful of the need for their opinions to provide clarity to people before they vote. And if you extend that logic, maybe that means that they will hasten to decide the Immunity Case very soon after the arguments in april in order for that clarification to be provided early enough for people to factor it into their vote in november. I certainly hope so. Because, again, the ball game is in the criminal courtroom in washington, d. C. Where the same facts that have been obvious for a long time will finally, tested by crossexamination, finally reach that crucible. If hes convicted, i think that has the potential to be transformative in terms of Public Opinion. I think thats where these are accurately described from every News Organization as a big political and legal win for trump. Here is some of the evidence youve stopped that would ostensibly be part of any criminal proceeding. Trump repeated his big lie and claimed it was, quote, statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 election, before calling for a big protest in d. C. On january 6th. Be there, will be wild. Many of trumps followers took to social media to declare that they were ready to answer trumps call. One user asked, is the 6th dday . I remember mr. Ornato had talked about intelligence reports and i remember him coming in and saying that we had intel reports that there could potentially be violence on the 6th. I overheard the president Say Something to the effect of i dont effing care that they have weapons, theyre not here to hurt me, let the people in. They can march the capitol from here. If you dont fight like hell, youre not going to have a country anymore. Mike pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesnt, that will be a sad day for our count. [ Crowd Chanting ] Vice President pences staff and d. C. Government officials, none of them, not one, heard from President Trump that day. He did not call to issue orders, he did not call to offer assistance. So if President Trump wasnt calling Law Enforcement or military leaders, what did President Trump spend his time doing that afternoon . He first settled into the dining room. He was calling senators to encourage them to delay or object to the certification. We dont know what else jack smith has developed, but we know from tims work that they established the attack was premeditated. He started declaring it was impossible to lose. We know from the evidence that was developed from his closest advisers that the violence was something he was enthusiastic about because he knew they were not here to hurt me, end quote. We knew that risking mike pences life was part of the plan all along. He was the target of the violence. Trump was fine with it. And we know that the people who carried out the acts are people that trump plans to pardon so that theyre at the ready should he need them again. What part of this is there any suss sfens about in this country . I have no idea, to be honest with you. And what ive been trying to understand and figure out, with your help, whats the motivation behind it all . What are the fears that block us from holding this man accountable . Is it the millions of americans that seem to support him . Is it the fear that somehow the very fabric of the country will be ripped apart . What does it mean for us to willingly risk the very foundation of the rule of law for this guy, for what theyve done . So the evidence has been before us, and we can go through it over and over again. I dont know why jack smith didnt charge him, andrew. You might know. I dont know. Its baffling. And from my vantage point, it just shows that some people are above the law. Value the institutional anxiety, the institutional reluctance, and this isnt just the court, this is merrick garlands justice department. They turned to trump after tims brilliant work. Theres no evidence that the Supreme Court wants to do anything. I hope what tim just laid out is what happens. I hope that they do see in the same way they did with the 14th Amendment case that there is a public interest. I think upwards of 83 of all americans would like to see this adjudicated by a jury of trumps peers. I hope they see that. We know theyre very cognizant of the conversations on cable news. They usually responded in the Wall Street Journal editorial page. But i dont that would be a deviation, i guess, from the pattern of institutional anxiety and reluctance to treat trump like any other american would be treated. Im going to Say Something that sounds cynical, but i think is hopeful, and i think this is echoing what everyone else is saying. For those of us who imported all of our hopes and dreams into the Supreme Court intervening in some heroic way, its a disappointment, just as the kicking the can down the road on the Immunity Case is a disappointment. But i think tim just said and you just said, and its important, theres nothing that is going to happen in another case i dont want to say nothing, theres a lot thats going to happen, but its not dispositive, because what the select Committee Found was dispositive, maine, illinois, colorado, all determined he committed the acts he committed. So instead of having magical thinking about the court giving us some reason to believe, i think its time to say, good, the court utterly disappointed us. Now weve got to make this happen at the polls. That is lizs sort of final point, and she says, im confident we can do that. Well let you and liz cheney be the optimists for the day. Thank you so much for starting us off today. Andrew and eddie, stick around a little longer. Still ahead, Allen Weisselberg turned himself in, again, this morning to the manhattan d. A. s office. Why the former trump org ceo could find himself behind bars again. You were always so dedicated. We worked hard to build up the shop, save for college and our retirement. But we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. Now i see who all that hard work was for. It was always for you. Seeing you carry on our legacy im so proud. At vanguard, youre more than just an investor, youre an owner. Setting up the future for the ones you love. 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Guess the Wayfair Word Is Out wayfair youve got just what i need youre probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. But what if we told you its possible that comcast Business Mobile can save you up to 75 a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers . You can get 2 unlimited lines for just 30 each a month. All on the most reliable 5g mobile network, nationwide. Wireless that works for you. Get the new Samsung Galaxy s24 on comcast Business Mobile. Save big with up to 500 off an eligible samsung device with a qualifying tradein. Dont wait call, click or visit an xfinity store. Officer of Donald Trumps company, Allen Weisselberg, did it again, pleaded guilty to Felony Perjury Charges in a manhattan courtroom earlier today. He admitted that he lied during sworn testimony when asked about allegations that trump lied about his wealth during the expresident s civil fraud trial. This is now weisselbergs second guilty plea. He pleaded guilty to multiple Tax Charge Prices and served three months at rikers. Todays plea will put him behind bars again for up to five months. The new charges come weeks before the expresident is set to face trial on separate allegations that he falsified business records. Manhattan d. A. Alvin braggs criminal case, the New York Times lays out the developments for that case, writing, quote, mondays guilty plea could strengthen mr. Braggs hand heading into trial, deferring other witnesses from lying on the stand. The Perjury Charges could discredit mr. Weisselberg, who has disputed details of the prosecutions evidence in the case. Joining our conversation, New York Times investigative reporter, sue craig. Andrew and eddie are with us. Sue, weisselberg is going back to rikers for donald trump . He must know the bus route. And the weekly bunch plan. Why . Because he said during the civil trial he was testifying during the civil trial and he said at one point that he wasnt really familiar with the valuations of the now infamous triplex that donald trump lived in in trump tower. And almost immediately Don Alexander at forbes puts out a story that has just a litany of back and forth between Allen Weisselberg and his magazine about how involved he was and the headline in the story even said that weisselberg was lying on the stand. And this almost immediately triggered an investigation that led to this mornings proceedings, where he looks like hes going to end up back in rikers for another fivemonth tour of duty. Sue, there are lies that could be fuzzed up with a complicated fuzzy borderline, and then there were lies that were so obvious that i could understand them. And lying about trump, the size of trumps tacky condos is like a lie that a child could understand. Anything you can measure with a tape measure. Thats above my pay grade. Maybe youre saying these things so often that you forget the difference between the truth and the lie. I dont know. It was puzzling to me why he would it was such an obvious misstatement, and it was seized upon immediately, and i think prosecutors saw it as a way in come back with charges against Allen Weisselberg. They had been looking at other charges to potentially bring about other misrepresentations they had found, and this one was almost just immediate. Peoples heads were spinning when it happened. So here we are. Explain the times reporting today about how this strengthens alvin braggs hands ahead of a criminal trial. I think theres two components to that. One is Allen Weisselberg moving forward with his Perjury Charge really does send a message, a very loud one, of actions, not words, to other witnesses that you better not do this. And so i think thats one thing. And i think going in, Allen Weisselberg knows a lot about the Hush Money Payment. We know that he had discussions with michael cohen, who is another key witness in the case, about how to structure this payment so that it didnt look like what it was. And hes been Allen Weisselberg has been an uncooperative witness. So i think if they couldnt get him to cooperate, they want to discredit him. Allen weisselberg is going to rikers twice over the hush money alleged crimes, and Allen Weisselbergs crimes are crimes that arent just alleged, crimes for which hes been convicted. Its such a remarkable contrast to the way trump world looks at this one. Oh, not that big of a deal. Lets just pull the lens back. Who was Allen Weisselberg . He is the longtime chief Financial Officer of the Trump Organization. He has pleaded guilty before today he pleaded guilty to a decadeslong tax conspiracy, and its not just him. The Trump Organization was convicted of just that. So thats the backdrop to to what were talking about with respect to donald trump. We have the chief Financial Officer engaging in, by his own words and admission, this crime, and a jury has already found that the Trump Organization did this. He gets out of jail. Normally theres some kind of chastening from rikers. I dont care if its a day. Thats not a great place to be. And he hops on the stand and lies again. Why . So one reason, for one, hes worked for donald trump for years, hes engaged in this tax scheme and crimes at that organization for years. And from the evidence at the trial, he was not alone. Its not like he alone was doing this crime. It was benefiting all sorts of people, including the Trump Organization and thus trump. If he told the truth about this, he was going to implicate himself in yet another crime, and as it was brought out at the trial, he was given we talked about the hush money case with respect to stormy daniels. The evidence at this trial was that Allen Weisselberg had a 2 million Hush Money Payment to him as part of his severance. He was told even though he had pled got to this tax offense, he was given 2 million to say, you know what, you have to cooperate with us, dont meet with the government. And there was still 1 million left on that payment. So he had made a choice about which side he was on. After taxes, a Million Dollars to go to rikers twice, i know its a ton of money. Hes not a young guy. I feel like theres more in there. Of course. Its a ton of time of your life at a point in your life where going to rikers two times for trump, who hasnt been accountable by anybody, just seems like a remarkable act. Its hard not to look at that and think that what he has pled to is is the tip of the iceberg . Exactly. Its so nice to see you. Well continue to call on you. Theres much more ahead. President joe biden anticipating his likely 2024 president ial rival, donald j. Trump, will, without a doubt, do anything to try to win. 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Home internet with 5g. Wait tmobile has Home Internet . What a feeling to have tmobile now america, as we begin this election year, we must be clear, democracy is on the ballot. Your freedom is on the ballot. This is the First National election since january 6th, insurrection has placed a dagger at the throat of democracy since that moment. We all know who donald trump is. The question we have to answer is, who are we . Thats whats at stake. President joe biden earlier this year in his speech at valley forge, marking the anniversary of the deadly january 6th insurrection. The president talking about the stakes of this upcoming election in determining whether we remain a democracy at all. A brand new interview in the new yorker, President Joe Biden warns us that trump could, yet again, try anything to regain the presidency, win or lose. The president argues if he loses the election in november, he wont call it quits because thats how losers like trump operate, the president says. Quote, losers who are losers are never graceful, biden said. I just think that hell do anything to try to win. If and when i win, i think hell contest it, no matter what the result is. In the interview, President Biden makes a case for why he has to be the candidate to take on the disgraced expresident. He says, im the only one who has ever beat him and ill beat him again. Ill ask a rhetorical question, if you thought you were best positioned to beat someone who if they won would change the nature of america, what would dow . Joining us, host of the politics fast forecast, molly john fast is here. What do you think of this . This is fiery of biden. I like fiery biden. And i also think that you know, this is a guy weve counted out again and again and again. I wrote a piece for the Washington Post saying he should drop out, the guy is not the nominee, and what he did is he came roaring back in South Carolina. Like, he happens to have, again and again, and even with the midterms, really defined expectations. And i remember before the famous red wave midterms that he was out there giving speeches about democracy and a lot of pundits were making fun of him and saying that it was too broad and all people cared about inflation, and actually voters really liked it. So i do think he connects with voters. And if you read that piece, the sub text of it, and its a very long piece, but brilliant, he talks about how these people have been doing this for a very long time. And they have real instincts about politics, which i think have turned out to be quite useful. Democracy becoming a Top Tier Issue is the plot twist that i didnt see coming. Biden didnt just come roaring back. Black voters in South Carolina and jim clyburn chose biden over all the other choices. It was a very crowded and talented democratic field, and they chose biden. And some of this posture that hes taking feels like sort of reminding people why he prevailed the first time. And, listen, you have to be this aggressive and you have to go big. On a small ticky tack kind of whackamole fight with trump not only do you not win, nobody comes out alive because hes so dirty. But this big argument, if he can win this argument isnt even running as somebody who wants to lead a Democratic State. Trump is running as a dictator. Right. So we are in this country historically at least, weve been more comfortable with populism from the right than from the left. Were more comfortable with fascists than we are with, quote unquote, communists. And so theres a sense remember when he was in that field there was this feeling that the left wing of the Democratic Party, the progressive wing, the Bernie Sanders vote, pulling the party too far to the left, and biden comes in and splits the difference. Hes the guy who can get those independents. Hes the guy that can get those suburban white women to vote, and only he could do it, not these other folks. Definitely not Bernie Sanders, right . So hes the guy who could convince those folk who may just simply pull the lever for donald trump because theyre afraid of this leftwing cabal. And so here we are still, right . Worried about the left wing, the progressive bugaboo. The right wing planned an insurrection. Exactly. Crazy. But the question has to be asked in the midst of that is the question President Biden asked. Who are we . Its so scary, but it is absolutely the right thing. And then trust the answer. We have to sneak in a quick break. No ones going anywhere. Well all be right back. Ere. Well all be right back. vo if you have graves disease. And blurry vision, you need clear answers. People with graves could also get thyroid eye disease, or ted, which may need a different doctor. Find a ted Eye Specialist at isitted. Com. Ohhh crap. Now we gotta get france something. 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Wellness well done yall wayfair makes it so easy to create a home youll love. Its the talk of the neighborhood. Kelly i just wayfaird. Thats wayfair. Saving time saving money. You wayfaird your whole bathroom . even the vanity when i wayfair, i wayfair ya know . Oh i know. This is nice. Another wayfair day you know it. New couch in just two days the Wayfair Word Is Out. Wayfair, youve got just what i need lve always wanted to do that. Are you keeping as much of your Investment Gains as possible . High taxes can erode returns quickly. At creative planning, your portfolio is managed in a taxefficient manner. Its what you keep that really matters. Book your free meeting today at creativeplanning. Com. Were back with molly and eddie, and were heavy its gotten heavy in the breaks. But this is about big stuff. And when you you realize we try to go big here. But this is about everyone who saw how bad trump was for our democracy, for the world order, to come out and if you see something Say Something. This is time for jim mat sxis mark milley and everyone at the state department. Because the opposite is also true. If anyone at the cia thought it went well we would have heard from them. Trump would be talking about them as a running mate. Or the pentagon. Or the state department. Nobody thought it went well. And here we are precariously closer to the possibility of a Second Trump Term. If you love this place, if you are i was about to drop an f bomb. Right . If you are an american to the core. Its time to step up. Period. We have to discover who we are. And the only way youre going to discover it is youve got to make the damn choice. Period. Yeah. And thats what bidens calling on americans to do. Yeah. And i also think, look, its the do you want to have more elections election. I love that. Trump is saying hes going to be a dictator on day one. And maybe he walks it back and says its a joke. But obviously we know the point. Right . He could have just told and hes never joking. Hes always saying what hes going to do for two reasons. One, so that the press is just freaking out, i said i was going to do that. And two, so his base is conditioned. Insurrection . I dont mind an insurrection. Putin taking ukraine . Whats the big deal . And Vaughn Hillyard is out of the room. Literally saying those things. Trump does what he does because it works. And even san hannity when he said that all sean hannity wanted for him to say was youre right, of course im kidding. And instead he was like no. And the whole idea it was about natural gas, its ridiculous. In another two months hell be like dictators arent all bad. Can i say real quickly . Sure. Im so glad youre back. Im so glad to see you. Eddie, thank you for spending the hour with us and for being at the table. Molly will be back in the next hour because nobody ever gets to leave. Up next for us a veteran of the United States Intelligence Community, somebody we love to talk to. Sue gordon will be our guest as part of our american autocracy, it could happen here, series. Dont go anywhere. Well be right back. Here, series dont go anywhere. Well be right back. For colon cancer. Its time to use my voice, ive got a choice, more than one answer. I sat down with my doc. We had a talk. Knew just what to say. I asked for cologuard and did it my way. Cologuard is a oneofa kind way to screen for colon cancer thats effective and noninvasive. Its for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. False positive and negative results may occur. Ask your provider for cologuard. I did it my way i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms. With my Psoriatic Arthritis symptoms. But just ok isnt ok. And i was done settling. 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Only pay for what you need. Jingle liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Baby liberty. Once people feel that the United States cannot be counted on, is not consistent, and trump if trump actively seeks to undermine that confidence, then all sorts of terrible consequences could ensue. Dictators are encouraged. Countries that had been allies and friends of the United States like japan, for example, moving to the pacific, may decide, well, the only way we can secure our future is to acquire our own nuclear capability. You run the risk of nuclear proliferation. Hi again, everyone. Its now 5 00 in new york. An extremely troubling outcome of trumps increasingly autocratic missives and ways voiced by the former leader, one of americas strongest allies, getting to the point that as much as american democracy is on the line with the upcoming election so is the entire world order as we know it as well. Its all on the line. That was australias former prime minister, malcolm turnbull. He made that comment on this broadcast last week based on what hes seen in public from the expresident over the last several months and years. Donald trump seems intent on ripping apart americas global alliances. He instead wants to align himself with the worlds most brutal dictators and wants to shape u. S. Government institutions into tools for his own whims. Politico recently spoke with a dozen and a half former intelligence officials from the Trump Administration about how on edge the idea of a Second Trump Term makes all of them. Quote, trump, who already tried to revamp Intelligence Agencies during his first term, is likely to reup those plans and push even harder to replace people perceived as hostile to his political agenda with inexperienced loyalists. That could empower the former president s top subordinates to shield him from information that doesnt conform with his politics and even change the wording of assessments with which he disagrees, many of them said. The piece goes on to explain why this is such a concern. Quote, an overhaul of the type trump is expected to attempt could undermine the credibility of american intelligence at a time when the u. S. And allies are relying on it to navigate crises in ukraine and the mideast. It could also effectively strip the Intelligence Community of the ability to dissuade the president from decisions that could put the country at risk. Its terrifying. It is a terrifying reality. We could soon face as americans. Especially as trump has repeatedly shown his affinity for the worlds autocrats as well as his utter disregard for the safety and protection of classified material. Former officials paint a bleak picture of what could be. Former trump National Security adviser john bolton said this, quote, the chief requirements for duty will be how quickly can you say yes, sir. The former director of National Intelligence dan coats warned that by being cavalier with classified intelligence, quote, peoples lives could be lost. And top nsc russian adviser fiona hill said this, quote, trump cant just cherrypick what he wants to hear when there are so many u. S. Adversaries and countries that do not wish the u. S. Well. You heard it from those up close and personal to the trump show the first time. Second one . Would be an unmitigated National Security disaster. Its where we start the hour with former Principal Deputy director of National Intelligence sue gordon. So sue gordon, when i think of whats good about being back at work and covering this moment i think about the opportunity to talk to you because im guessing that if you didnt feel that there was some need to be out there you might not be . Yeah, i love america. And i think this is a consequential moment. I think the world is fraught and disrupted. And i think in times of uncertainty it is really tough for democracies and authoritarianism looks really attractive. So to me thats whats at stake. And so im so delighted to come back and talk to you. I love talking about intelligence because i think its kind of arcane but it is so foundational to National Security and who we are that i think understanding what the former president thought of it and what he might do with it is important for us to talk about. Tell us what he thought of it and what he might do with it in your assessment. I think, to begin with, i dont think he fundamentally understood that intelligence is one of the great advantages and tools of statecraft that anyone has. It is, my parlance, knowing the truth allowing you to see beyond the horizon and let leaders act before events dictate. It has nothing to do with opinion. It has only to do with the ruthless quest to see what is rather than what you prefer. Thats all it is. So giving that to a president but its so opposite of everything we see him do in public. Exactly. Did you ever see a private version of trump thats better than what we see publicly . Sure, there were plenty of times that he listened intently to what we had to say. But it requires understanding what it allows you to do. Right . It allows you to know with certainty. It allows you to talk Behind Closed Doors with the most both friendly and unfriendly of adversaries to say here is what is, we need to act together below the surface. It is such a tremendous tool of stability when used to effect, and when misused it does quite the opposite. It can be a tool of instability. Of creating distrust. Of creating mayhem. Of not understanding second and third effects. So i think he just doesnt understand it. He saw it as something that was disadvantageous to him because it was inconvenient. Because it was the truth. It was the truth. And it was inconvenient to what he wanted to achieve. Now, thats not different than other president s have thought. President obama once said you all do understand that you steal my decision space. Thats right. Because it is an inconvenient truth. But what it allows is good decisionmaking. And thats what National Security is. And thats what we count on the president to do. And if you dont use it, youre undermining National Security of the American People. Worse, if you misuse it and you use it for a small purpose or to mischaracterize it, you can destroy the friendships that turnbull was just saying. The advantage of america is we have friends. But friends trust each other. What happens when we cant be trusted . When what we say is not foundational or the information that has been shared is not protected. Whats the answer to that . What happens when we cant be trusted . We wont have impact. And then you break into a world where each gets his own. What does that look like . Putin deciding that he wants ukraine. And we do nothing. I mean, look at how hard the Intelligence Community has worked to try to shed light on that circumstance. Look how hard the Intelligence Community has worked to declassify information so that we could counter a narrative that putin would put forward. But it did so because it had a process by which it understood the value of the information, the community it was trying to align, and how it could be used to put light on evil. But that is not a simplistic i want it or i want to do it. That is a thoughtful execution of National Security. What if you i mean, if you reverseengineer it to trump has said and well just deal with whats in the Public Sphere. I wont press you for anything you saw in your official capacity. But in the Public Sphere he said he would end the war in two days. Thats nonsensical. Its nonsensical. But in the Public Sphere hes also said nothing but glowing things about putin and russia. What do you what is happening . Whats being gamed out in closed Behind Closed Doors in kyiv and washington as possible . I think i think the strength of our system, and i think this is whats in peril. So ill give you the strength and whats being gamed out and then ill tell you whats in peril. The strength of our system is that we have installed bureaucracies. I know its really fun to call them the deep state, they have malfeasance. That is not my experience. This is a bunch of people who have spent their lifetime doing the backbreaking physical labor of National Security and they understand how it works. They understand the constitution. They understand their partners and colleagues. They understand geopolitics. And when presented with a situation they give their best they give their lives sometimes. They do. And thats whats going on right now globally with our coalition to try to counter whats going on between russia and ukraine. Right . And we do that because of all the work of that great apparatus. I think whats in peril is if you put the wrong leader in charge of this thing called National Security or intelligence they dont understand what theyre sitting on top of. They dont understand the responsibility of their mission. They dont understand the commitment of their women and men. They dont understand the cost of the collection of that information. So it becomes not the strength but something that can be casually thrown away as a party favor or a sound bite or to be able to say i got something small. So thats one. You can put the wrong leader in charge. You can misuse the information so that you put either billions of dollars or more importantly lives at risk. If you misuse that information, people will start sharing with you, and make no mistake, we get most of what we know from somebody elses participation with us. And finally, youll break the institution. Why would anyone want to come and do this if every single day the American People are being told that theyre not worthy, that they are other than what they know themselves to be, which is trying to keep america and their interests safe for democracy. So the is it fair to ask if thats the end goal, to break the institutions on trumps part . The institutions are inconvenient because they were designed to be inconvenient. You dont want government to be so fast that it is just the whim of the person. Its designed to be transparent and fair and repeatable and work against the system. Now, ive spent my whole career thinking it wasnt good enough. Im a revolutionary within the systems. But i will tell you, if you think we dont need government youre not thinking. Yes, lets but do you think that trump thinks that i dont think i think its inconvenient. I think its massively inconvenient. I think he is confused what are legitimate concerns about his behavior, what are legitimate warnings about the intention of our adversaries and competitors. Ive said this to him. I will say it again. Anyone who thinks that you have to be complicit to be used does not understand the interests of our adversaries and competitors. Do you think putin was using him or would like to use him in the future . The doctrine of the former soviet union, now russia, is to undermine democracy, particularly that practiced by the United States. Yes. That is doctrinally one of his intentions and one of the ways you do that most effectively and they have since the Second World War is to undermine our belief in ourselves. And what better way to do that than to convince somebody that what theyre doing is what they want when its feel what you want to achieve. I think its generous he understands. I worry he does and does it anyway. But lets go with he doesnt understand. What role does Tucker Carlson being in russia interviewing Putin Amplifying putins propaganda to the point it comes out of the mouths of american citizens at trump rallies, how does that fit into the autocratic playbook . Well, its a dream. Right . You have a venerable u. S. Institution, our media, going there and saying hey, i think this is better than we are. What more do they have to do . How hard do they have to work . We have just achieved one of their objectives simply by participating in that sort of thing. You know, one of the things, nicolle, you and i talked about this last time, what i think is so interesting about the world in which we live right now is National Security Decision Makers are disproportionately not in the government. Theyre the ceos of companies that take money from the wrong person or Tucker Carlson, who doesnt understand what hes participating in when he thinks hes getting a rating or seeming to support somebody else. We need to understand that there are adversaries and competitors who do wish us harm, in part because we have the winning system. Look at what we have. Yeah. Well, what do you again, what is the view from moscow if the american system, our rule of law cant hold trump accountable for his mishandling of classified documents at maralago or his attempts to overthrow the american elections On January 6th . Well, it becomes a lot easier to figure out how to influence us because youre not trying to break down a whole nation that has an ethos, institutions that have standards, a constitution that has standing. And now in order to achieve your outcome we have a much easier gig. Because there hasnt been adjudication in the courts right. So again, wittingly or unwittingly, the inability of the rule of law to hold trump to account by any of the rest of us aids them. It just makes it easier. Right . Their job of influence is easier. Because our institutions are weakened. Its incredible. Right. And its a lot of us. And ill start with the American People. One of the great things about being an american is this thing called Consent Of The Governed. Explain that. We have the power. Every Single Person that holds any office we put there. So we need to wake up a bit and see whats at stake. There are these incredible gifts we have as a nation. It would be lovely if we were all participating in keeping the congress has an incredibly important role. Theyre one of three branches of the government. The whole design of our system is to have these counterbalances. If they decide that whatever party is in power is the one theyre going to just blindly accept and youre going to have party line votes, oh, my god. Scoop jackson and sam nunn must be losing their minds at the idea. Can it come back, though . Sure. I hear you and i worked for mccain, who was on the phone all day on the back of the bus with his best friends from the senate and they were all democrats. I mean, that era seems to be out of reach. Not just gone but i mean, do you think because the Consent Of The Governed means that the governed value being a democracy. And you listen to the sound of some of the trump voters and they seem ambivalent about it. Yeah, i dont think the conversation were having in america is worthy of the americans. Oh, wow. I dont. I dont think that we are talking about the right things. I dont think we are dealing with the reality that we have two factions that see the world so differently. And it used to be that we had different views of how we would get there but not a different view of what what the problem was. Right . Right. So how do you get that back . You have to Start Talking about it and Start Talking about the things that are common. Stop vil nooizing people. Stop villainizing industry. Yes, industry ought to be much more responsible. But they are one of the great engines of not only our National Success but our ability to influence the world. The government. But do we not want americas best and brightest to participate in the systems that protect the organizations and our ideals that we have . I just think you have to we have to talk more about what is really at stake. It is fun to talk about individuals, about who they are. But the strength of america is who we are. And we havent talked enough about that. Which is why i love coming on and talking to you because thats what you and i are talking about. I want to i need to you put me on the spot. Go ahead. Does that mean a conversation with National Security experts whove been behind the curtain like yourself who say theres only one person, dont look at his age, dont look at anything but look at the one thats running to lead a Democratic State . Is that the conversation we should be having . I think you have to look at what the person is saying they would do. So one is saying he would lead continue to lead america as a democracy. The other is saying, quote, i will be a dictator on day one. Thats antithetical to who we are. Disqualifying . Its antithetical to who we are. Disqualifying . I believe in the American People. You believe they should will find It Disqualifying . I believe if they understand who we are the moment we have, the power they possess and whats at stake, i think they can. Do you think they should . I think they always should make the choice for america. Thank you for letting me drill down on that one. Can we continue to have this conversation . Id love to, if youll have me. Do you believe that if there were anyone in your position of authority with the access to americas secrets that thought differently of trump they would have appeared by now . I think you know, the questions you asked me and that youre asking of me, who has spent my life, i believe in the constitution, The Constitution Prescribes a president i think one of the hard things that National Security professionals have is separating that which the constitution allows and the constitution doesnt say the president has to be good. The constitution doesnt say the president has to make good decisions. And where you draw that line. And so i guess what im offering you is that the more we have conversations about what the consequence of some of these candidates and i think we absolutely should believe former President Trump and what he says he should do. He would break the systems that i think are the power of america. I think he would undermine intelligence such that we would lose the great strength that it represents. But what i want america to hear is it isnt about trump. Its about its what hes running as. Its about what he will do to what they count on. They count on us being good. Great. Weve had 40 years of peace and abundant. Im telling you, that is not a guarantee. Make a decision not about who can tell you that they alone because im here to say no one alone can do it. It is who we are that has allowed the strength that we possess. And you ought to make that decision about who can best preserve that, and make it better. Can i ask you to stick around through a quick break . You got it. All right. Sue gordon isnt going anywhere. Our conversation about the possible damage that could be done if someone like trump were to lead the United States of america, specifically to the Intelligence Community, well continue that conversation in just a moment. And later in the broadcast, the disgraced expresident once again slipping up, mistaking one joe biden, his likely opponent in november, for one former president barack obama. Well show you what he said in his own words and the stunned silence from his very devoted supporters that followed. Well also talk about the question of age that is now everywhere. Snl, maureen dowd. You name it. Its everywhere. Well talk about the one thing he could do right now to get himself on the offense and promise the American People he hears them and he sees them. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere today. S after. Dont go anywhere today. Es easytouse tools, like dynamic charting and riskreward analysis, help make trading feel effortless. And its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. E trade from morgan stanley. With powerful, easytouse tools, power e trade makes complex trading easier. React to fastmoving markets with dynamic charting and a Futures Ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you wont miss an opportunity. E trade from morgan stanley. Anthony this making you uncomfortable . Or reverse orders so you wont missgood. Pportunity. 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With comcast business, reliability isnt just possible. Its happening. Get started for 49 a month. Plus, ask how to get up to a 800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet package. Dont wait, call and switch today as i expressed to the president on my third visit to the oval office as his new principal adviser, i said mr. President , there will be times when i have to bring news to you that you dont want to hear. I just want you to know that the news i bring to you, the information i bring to you will be to the best extent that we can, be unvarnished, nonpoliticized, the best that our incredible Intelligence Agencies can produce, so you will have the information you need to make the Policy Decisions that youre going to be faced with. Joining our conversation, former Assistant Director for counterintelligence at the fbi Frank Figliuzzis here. And former fbi counterintelligence agent and author of compromised Counter Intelligence and the threat of donald j. Trump, written before he was on the hook for all of these civil legal defeats, pete strzok is here. Sue gordon is still with us. Pete and frank, weve talked so much about the things sue says when shes here and we talk about them when shes gone. So i wanted to have you here while shes still here and broaden this conversation a little bit. To the fact that what shes laying out and her perspective, theres enough information thats now public. Everybody has all the information they need. And i wonder if we just shift that kaleidoscope a little bit and sort of turn this over to the country, what in your view, frank, does that conversation start to look like . Youre right that the evidence is there if we want to see it. We dont need to have a crystal ball to predict what the Intelligence Community could look like under another Trump Administration. If we look at what he did previously, his disdain for the Intelligence Community, his deciding to side with putin on who speaks the truth and who doesnt, his absolute disdain for Intelligence Community inspectors general who actually keep everybody on the straight and narrow, who hes placed in dni positions, without any expertise or professionalism, then we know whats going to happen. And then look at the reports that there are teams together working right now on what to do with the Intelligence Community and the dismantling of it. The bottom line is that intelligence work without integrity undermines National Security. So this isnt a political conversation. This is not a conversation about oh, well, i prefer a politically conservative approach to National Security, i dont like spending so many resources defending democracy around the world. Thats not this discussion. This is a far higherlevel discussion, which is youre either understanding the threat to National Security when you dismantle the Intelligence Process or youre not getting it. For example, if you put into the upper echelons of every one of the major u. S. Intelligence agencies people who are loyal to the autocrat in the oval Office Versus the constitution, youve got a big problem on your hands because the Intelligence Process consists of collection, dissemination and consumption. And if you control all three of those, you literally can weaponize it to your own agenda, your own personal agenda. You dont want collection on russia and how bad it is . You tell the community i dont want to see it or hear it. You dont want to hear how bad north korea is and how theyve developed their Nuclear Weaponry because it makes you look bad because youre so friendly with north korea . That it never gets collected or disseminated and therefore not consumed. Thats part of the huge problem were looking at. You know, pete, maralago and the depiction of classified materials stacked one on top of each other more rec v recklessly than i stack my sons Kindergarten Artwork at trumps golf club is something we fixate on because we can see it. But behind that is a human being, often an american, sometimes someone from one of our allies, sometimes someone who doesnt neatly fit into the box of an ally but they trust us to share their secrets. There are human beings running around the worlds diciest spots sharing things with us. And we look at the paper and we talk about the paper, we talk about the trial. We dont give enough air time to the people. What would it be like to be an agent in a second Trump Presidency . Well, nicolle, first welcome back. Its greet to see you back. Thank you. I would say it is a terrible place to be as an agent. I agree with everything that sue and frank said. I would point to there is an interesting perspective when you Start Talking about being an agent, and there are laws to protect those agents. And it goes to the fbis in an interesting place because on the one hand theres a member of the Intelligence Community. They collect foreign intelligence. They lead counterintelligence efforts here within the United States. But theyre also in charge of enforcing National Security laws. And that comes into play in particularly two specific areas with regard to trump. The first is when it comes to politicizing intelligence if you happen to be someone like michael sussman, if you happen to be someone like igor danchenko, you can suddenly find yourself with the fbi at your door with a search warrant, with an arrest warrant, trying to bring charges against you. The other thing that it can lead to is if you are donald trump and youve been reelected and you are facing charges for which in my opinion is one of the most obstructive, grossly negligent handling of classified information that ive seen in my career, that you can let yourself off the hook, that you can let others off the hook who also might have committed crimes. So at the end of the day those crimes are designed to protect those things that keep us safe. Whether thats the life of a human source. Whether thats some extraordinarily sensitive technical technique. We have those laws in place to protect those things and protect those people. And if you have no respect for those laws, if youre willing to wield them to attack your enemies and protect yourself, its a horrible place to be as a human source. And weve been exactly there before. People who tried to protect our National Security laws, the look into Trumps Campaign was a criminal one. The National Security questions were National Security questions. And the people that ran the agency all had their reputations maligned and largely lost their jobs. Comey, mccabe i mean, what if trump were handed a second term . What happens to the people in charge of enforcing the laws that protect our National Security . They wont have their position. And then what . Well, then the system breaks. Then what makes us special, what makes us different from various apparatus, theyre used as instruments of the states against something with no constraints, we become that. So thats the risk. I think we saw it so clearly in the First Administration because you saw this tension, between a system that was trying to be responsive to a president but unwilling to do what it couldnt do. Right . And it got exposed. And the former president was angered because there were things he wanted to do but couldnt be done within the confines of the system we had. And he with were perhaps not as effective on either side, but certainly that lesson has been learned and the listen that will be learned is if i want to do what i want to do i have to get rid of those people and institutions that would resist it. But again, what i say is the consequence is less about the individual whos doing it than about who we back. Who we back. Do we stay no, we dont. Listen, this is a very hubrisy statement but i think free societies globally rely on the United States to be a reliable trustworthy partner that behaves within not only a set of rules but within the international order. If we dop stog that, then it all kind of breaks down. Will we know . Things happen slowly but are they happening right now . Yeah, we have less trust. I think the Biden Administration has actually done a pretty surprisingly good job of Rebuilding Coalitions that i thought even with some of its own actions could have been disrepaired. I think whats happened with ukraine and the coalition that has stayed together and even as we faltered has stayed together is a pretty remarkable testament to how important our investment in these things are. If we start becoming untrustworthy. Can we continue to have these conversations . Sure. Thank you very much for being here, sue gordon. Its a privilege to get to talk to you. Frank figliuzzi and pete strzok thank you as well for spending time with us. When he with come back the one thing Joe Bide Kenn do today at 6 00 if he wanted to to take control of the conversation thats happening in every corner of his own Winning Coalition about his age. Thats next. s next. Ona. Im a flight nurse on a helicopter that specializes in trauma. Ive been doing Flight Nursing for 24 years. As you get older, your brain slows down and i had a fear that i wouldnt be able to keep up. I heard about prevagen from a friend. I read the Clinical Study on it and it had good reviews. 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Now is the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Hi, im michael, ive lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. Now is the time to see what americas largest most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. But since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. Thanks to golo and release, ive got my life and my health back. What do i see in peter dixon . I see my husband. The father of our girls. I see a public servant. A man who served under secretary clinton in the state department. Where he took on the epidemic of violence against women in the congo. I see a fighter, a tenacious problemsolver. Who will go to congress and protect Abortion Rights and our democracy. Because he sees a Better Future for all of us. Im peter dixon and i in the spirit of sue gordon just the facts here. President joe biden has carried out an agenda with broad and deep public support at a policy level. The Biden Economy is in a much stronger position than a lot of economists expected it to be. President joe bidens support for our democracy and our Democratic Institutions is never, ever, ever questioned, even by members of the republican party. And yet, and yet, and yet the age thing hangs over him like a looming political storm cloud. From snl to maureen dowd to the latest New York Times Public Opinion polls, its everywhere. Fair . Absolutely not. Ageism is real. As a woman on tv i can attest to that. But there is no time for joe biden between now and november to do that much about it. But you know what he can do, he can get on the offense. He can control the conversation. He can control how he deals with this issue, this question. He can wake up tomorrow and say okay, voters, i hear you and i see you and i love you, give me a chance to prove you right. President joe biden should run on A Constitutional Amendment Capping the maximum age that a man or woman could be inaugurated at 75. If it passed, future voters wouldnt have to contemplate President Joe Biden or his opponent. The constitution isnt mum on age. It has a minimum age. And if President Biden is successful in a second term, it would also have a maximum age. And just in case anyone at the white house or the campaign is worried it would somehow make biden look defensive or selfconscious about his own age, bidens response to that writes itself. Day after day after day. Have you seen the other guy . This was from this weekend alone. Putin, you know, has to little respect for obama that hes starting to throw around the nuclear word. You heard that. Nuclear. Did you just see maduro, venezwer its unbelievable. Oil exploration and production in the United States. The biden border will well, you know this, right . Even argentina, they went maga. You know argentina. Great guy. We will expel the warmongers. We are a nation that just recently heard that saudi arabia and russia will be re but ah. We didnt doctor that. It really happened. Joining us msnbc contributor and columnist Charlie Sykes plus u. S. Special correspondent for bbc studios, msnbc contributor katti kay is here. And lucky for us Molly Jong Fast special correspondent for vanity fair and msnbc contributor back at the table. Molly, you have thoughts. You know, look, theres been so much talk about the age. And some of the age writing is a mobius strip. We saw the times, there was one sunday when almost all the opinion columnists wrote about bidens age. And it became this issue that was sort of propped up to make a kind of false equivalence. Like one guy has 91 criminal counts and the other guys gold. But the truth is trump is 2 1 2 years younger than biden. These are not a lot of years. And sounds like that. And sounds like that. And i think the best thing bide kenn do is get out there. When he gets out there hes really good. I was at a party and everyone was like were going to vote for him but were not sure. And i played some stuff from cspan of him talking and they were like he sounds really good. And i was like, yeah, thats from yesterday. The thing about running on a constitutional amendment, one, Charlie Sykes, its been done before. It can read as cynical. The other thing that it does is it says let me prove you right, voters. You feel strongly about this, i hear you, i see you. And i think there is nothing to be gained by having nothing to bring to the conversation. It at least gets biden in the room and lets him sit at the side of the table of people who think our constitution and our elections should speak to age. But he has a lot to bring to the table. He has a lot to talk about. And youve put your finger on it. He has the other guy to talk about. Look, i dont think he can run away from this issue. It is a legitimate issue. Its a real issue in the minds of voters. So he needs to lean into it and say look, i am old. I am so old that, you know, make a routine out of it. But then he needs to say, but the other guy is also old. And hes crazy and hes dangerous. And he poses these threats. This is the moment that i think people need to come to grips with. If donald trump does pose an existential threat, then we ought to act like it. Maybe a year ago we could have had a serious conversation about replacing joe biden, you but joe biden is not going anywhere. He is going to be the candidate. So at some point the bedwetting has to morph into focusing on the task ahead. And every one of your programs, nicolle, underlines what a Trump Presidency would be. And i do think that its incumbent on everybody to say okay, what is this election about . What is important . Yes, we can be concerned about joe bidens age. But how does joe bidens age stack up with everything we know about donald trump . His dishonesty, his authoritarianism, his intention to have a presidency of revenge and retribution. Every single day donald trump gives joe biden something more to talk about. And thats thats what 2024 has to be. Does america want an old guy as president or do they want an old crazy dangerous deranged authoritarian as president . Yeah. I mean, and katty, thats where sue gordon i think oriented the conversation. If she could be here every day i would have her. But this is an election, and we say it all the time, it isnt always true, believe me, about big things. P not big policy things. Not big Foreign Policy decisions. About whether we remain whether we continue to have an election. I mean, whether we continue to be a country every four years lets the voters weigh in. So the challenge for the white house seems to be pretty clear. Keep making that argument, this is an election about big things. Keep bringing up Donald Trumps record. And keep bringing up the achievements joe biden has had in terms of policy decision thats have made americans lives better. Point to the fact consumers are feeling more confident. I filled up my car this weekend it was like 3. 40 a gallon. And at the same time talk about the age things that in a way acknowledges hes old but also acknowledges that hes competent. This is not somebody from all the reports that we have who is incompetent when it comes to policy, from thefrom what the record suggests. Along with your constitutional amendment idea another thing people who want to shrink the Trump Coalition seem to be saying time and again, and this is republican pollsters who charlie knows along with democratic voters, where are the surrogates . Its another practical thing, get surrogates out on television. Every day the Democratic Party is filled with a rich bench of talent. And have them out all talking about the same hymn book, talking about all the achievements and the criticisms of donald trump. It is something that is frustrating Campaign Advisers on the democratic side certainly. But it seems to be something thats fairly easy to fix. I think thats right. But i think you also in this day and age, you have to trust that you have to lean in to where the voters are. And i think the idea of muddling through and setting out snl to take issue with some of the surrogates being out there, ive sat across from joe biden. I think he sees the country the way we see the country. He sees the choice in terms of donald trump isnt running as someone who wants to lead a Democratic State. I think to the degree it becomes a distraction finding a way to get on offense, charlie what is the under armor . The only way out is through. It cant be dodged. Were at the point now where trump is doing the contrasting for him. Well, right. He has to lean into it. He cant pretend its not there. I think theres been a certain amount of denialism on the part of some of the president s defenders, that if we just didnt talk about it would go away. The reality is you cant have a conversation with any voter in america where it doesnt come up. So you do lean into it. But again, you need to put joe bidens age up against what donald trump represents. Where is the republican freakout about decompensation going on with donald trump . Where is the republican freakout about the fact he faces 91 criminal charges that he has been found liable for raping a woman . Here you have joe bidens age and then here you have all of the issues of donald trump. And thats what they have to lean into. Dont complicate it. Dont make it more difficult. Own the fact that youre old. But donald trump is also old but hes so much more than that. That i think has to be the strategy. No ones going anywhere. Ive got a million more questions for all of them. Well be right back. 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So please call this number right now to join me in helping hungry kids or go online to helpnokidhungry. Org and help feed hungry kids today. Dana, look at the schedule. Seven a. M. Seoul cycle class. I am not talking about taking one. He leads it. 8 30 am, play speed chess and the park. 8 32 am, wins game. Points at a point and says, next time young blood. 9 30 a. M. , meets with four military strategy meeting and push up contest. 10 02 i am, winds contest and points of the head of the joint chief and says next time, young blood. Ten or 3 11, train time. That is all before a lunch where he eats five hole chickens interoperated. It is one of the things that we dont cover a lot around here, because his age is his age. Im not as tells our shower, but i cant be taller. Its one of the things that just is. I do sometimes wonder, i think it is incumbent for them to be on the offense. He saying the voters he sure that theyre not in that situation again. Everywhere you, go your engrossed or youre at the dentist just a conversation to be had. On the other hand its the most known thing about joe biden. And look hes old but if you look at the primary votes come in its not like dean phillips is cleaning up. Nobody. Is nobodys and biden is really definitively away ahead and even when there was an uncommitted campaign which i think was a very good use of democracy there was even more turnout. If you look at trump who did everything he could to consolidate those primary schedules, he is still i mean nikki haley is getting 30 or 40 of the vote. Those voters are saying that they are never dropped which means as you and i both know. Nikki haley has turned this into a really against trump and biden. But mostly against trump. And the voters do you act more like you would think a Chris Christie voter. What they are more than you would ever hear from a desantis voter, there were more than a few. What do you make of how the nikki haley voters our sounding. We sort of waltz into tomorrow. Chris christie launched his campaign as the never trump candidate right from the start. I suppose its not surprising that his voters were all never trump. Nikki haley launched her campaign trying to be more church than that. But it is clear that a portion of her voters feel, as she is now saying, they reflect what she now says out of the campaign trail. The question in november is, what portion . How big is that slice . Is it 10 of Republican Voters who would not vote for donald trump . Is it 60 . Where others voters . Are they in the states that matter . And then the suburbs of those states that matter . All that is the kind of information that is very useful to democrats as they try to run joe bidens campaign. But i think you are right, it is pretty clear from the way the nikki haley is talking now that there are a group of people who support her who will never vote for donald trump. The only question for democrats is, how big is that group . I want to push back, respectfully and narrowly. I think that the biden strategy of is a loser. I think it is im old and most of the stuff i did is so popular, they are trying to destroy me through any means possible. By coming after my Vice President. Its offensive to every aspect of the center. Its not true on the merits. I think my worry is that the democrats are on their heels and they are not going on offense with the support of the popularity. He tried and failed to do bidens finger on the pulse is so intimidating. They are trying to destroy him below the belt. Well, he needs to lead into it and i think the democrats had them back on their heels. I dont think that joe biden needs to play the victim card. We are seeing donald trump do that. But i dont think that that is necessary for him to do. What he needs to do is reach out to some of those nikki haley voters. The killer was the republican parties offramp for donald trump. In the last few, days she is run a Stronger Campaign than i expected. Look we need to move away from the unhinged chaos from donald trump and move back to normalcy. After tomorrow, joe biden can appeal and say am the candidate that moves past the chaos. And the return to normalcy. The constituency in swing states will listen to. That we will keep our eyes out on. That thank you so much for spending time with us today another break for us, we will be right back. Di nausea or vomiting. Some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss. Upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. Live in the moment. Ask your doctor about otezla. I love your dress. Oh thanks i splurged a little because Liberty Mutual customized my Car Insurance and i saved hundreds. Thats great. I know, right . Ive been telling everyone. Baby liberty. Did you hear that . Ty just said her first word. Can you say mama . 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