Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240702

it is just a 900 page argument for expanded unfettered executive power. if you tacket that lid on ron desantis' plans that's what he's arguing for, too. i think we need to have a conversation about what does it mean to be a republican now and how has that changed and what are people implicitly accept when they say i just want a strong president. >> thank you both. that is "all in" a on thursday night. alex wagner tonight begins right now. >> it still astounds me these are legitimate conversations we're having with our livelihoods. thanks to you at home for joining me this evening. the former president of the united states is a free man. he can go anywhere he chooses. today he chose to attend his civil fraud trial in new york city. >> this is weaponization of justice. this is something that nobody's ever seen to this extent. it's called election interference. it's a sad day for our country when things like this can take place. i'm sitting in a courthouse instead of being in iowa where i should be. >> again, no one compelled mr. trump to be in that courthouse today. he could have gone to iowa. he has a private plane. he could have gone to both iowa and new york if he wanted to. but donald trump came to new york because he likes to use his trials as soapboxes for his presidential campaign. and the biggest one of all, the biggest soapbox of them all is the federal trial over alleged 2020 election subversion, which is set to take place in march of next year right as campaign season is in full swing. and that would setup a dynamic, a split screen, if you will, that no one in this country has ever seen before. "the new york times" today reports trump's d.c. trial would almost certainly fuse trump's role as a defendant with his role as presidential candidate. it would transform the steps of the federal courthouse into a site for daily impromptu campaign rallies, and it would place the legal case and the race for the white house on a direct collision course, each one increasingly capable of shaping the other. that's sort of what we saw in new york city, the beta test of that dynamic. but there's a very live question right now as to whether that case even goes to trial before the 2024 election. because while donald trump may enjoy the spectacle of a campaign rally on the courthouse steps, he is very much still doing everything in his power to avoid becoming a convicted criminal. and today trump's lawyers made a significant attempt to delay his d.c. federal trial in a move that may very well end up succeeding. as have been covering on this show in recent days, trump has been trying to get this case thrown out on the grounds he is immune from prosecution for anything he did as president. in trump's mind the presidency is a shield against nearly everything. but the judge here, judge tanya chutkan, rejected that argument last week in a forceful ruling. she wrote defendant's four-year service as commander in chief did not bestow on him the divine right of kings to evade the criminal accountability that governs his fellow citizens. but today trump is appealing that ruling saying he wants a higher court to weigh in on that same question. and importantly he is asking judge chutkan to freeze all further proceedings in this case until that issue is resolved. now, last night we told you about these jury selection forms that have already gone out in the mail to potential jurors in washington, d.c. but if trump succeeds in pausing this case, there will be no jury selection in the near future. no jury selection, pretrial motion, disclosures about pretrial. all that necessary and time consuming preparation would come to a grinding halt, which would inevitably have the effect of delaying the trial itself. but trump may also have another goal in mind. trump could try to appeal his presidential immunity defense all the way to the supreme court where he presumably hopes that the conservative majority, a re appointed by donald trump himself, that they would rule in his favor. what the supreme court would actually do here is anyone's guess. if they rule in trump's favor then the case is over, caput. but if they rule against trump, then judge chutkan would have a choice to make. getting a high court to issue a ruling would likely delay this case for weeks or even months. so then judge chutkan would have to decide whether to hold the proceeding during the heart of campaign season. such a move would no doubt prompt furious outbursts from mr. trump who would be obligated to be in courtroom every day and not campaigning. so that tantrum slash pep rally you saw today, the outbursts we've seen for weeks outside mr. trump's trial in new york those would become frequent. joining me now mimi roca. also with us a senior writer. mark, i'm going to go to you right now so that i can continue to cough and ask you what your assessment is about how long the d.c. circuit court may take to adjudicate this issue. >> you know, it really depends on what panel of judges takes this case, and it's randomly assigned. there are four republican appointed skbrujs on the d.c. circuit who have shown some inclination to running interference for trump to varying degrees. if two of those judges land on the panel, that panel could draw out the process. they could take a really long time to hear the case, issue a decision. in the past cases in the d.c. circuit these cases have gone on by chance to other panels which have worked quickly to expedite the process because they don't want to delay justice. if this lands in the hands of conservative justice on that court we could be waiting for months and months until we get a decision, and all that time judge chutkan's decisions would certainly be stayedch. >> mimi, it feels there aren't any good options here. >> i think the best case scenario is that the court of appeals rules quickly. this sounds a bit naive but i'm going to say it. this is motion any lawyer would file. we've talked many times about trump using appeals as a delay tactic. this is a real issue that they have a -- it makes sense that they're appealing it. it's not frivolous. >> yeah. >> i don't think ultimately on the merits he will win, and i think it's important that the court of appeals he's appealing to has already ruled on this in the civil context and said he does not have immunity. now, civil and criminal are very different. i think it's a decent argument. one way of thinking about it, though, is actually in a criminal context a court would be less likely to give immunity than in a civil one. anyone can file a civil case and they don't want to open the flood gates. criminal cases as we have seen in history against a sitting president or former sitting president are very rare. so i think there is a good chance that the court of appeals can rule quickly and get this moving. what happens at the supreme court is a bigger unknown. but, again, they have deferred on other cases related to trump and summarily affirmed the court of appeals and not wanted to weigh in on this. this is a more important legal question, so we will have to see. >> you know, mark, when we talk about the supreme court, it is a big question mark, which i think surprises some people that have seen other positions this court has taken on important conservative matters. what is your expectation here about who might be the -- who are the allies that trump might have on the high court? is it justice thomas? is it justice kavanaugh? is it more than the two of them? who do you think would be most sympathetic to his argument here? >> look, we've seen time and again justice thomas almost always votes with donald trump when he takes some case to the supreme court seeking to thwart a subpoena or indictment or any kind of lawsuit. justice thomas is there walking arm in arm with him and to a lesser degree so is justice alito. and both of them have expressed views they really do think this president or former president now is under this unfair assault that treats him almost illegitimately and they feel some independent obligation as the third branch to stand up to that. justices kavanaugh and gorsuch are interesting. they have indicated some concern from protecting the president from invasive lawsuits. the criminal question remains very much open. and as mimi alluded to, it's a very different case. it's not one that the supreme court ever dealt with squarely when trump was president when it really did try to dodge these issues. so one thing that i think is important to understand about this appeal is that it goes to judge chutkan it was jurisdiction to hear this case. it goes to the question of whether she even has the power to carry on here or whether trump is completely immune, and so the entire case has to be thrown out. i think the gravity of that question, it's so different from can this evidence be introduced, can this witness testify. this is the whole deal right here, and i think the gravity of that will give some of the justices pause and make them want to take on this case and really hear full arguments, full briefing, and issue a decision on the merits. that could take until june, at which point it might really be too late for a trial. even the justice kavanaugh and gorsuch ultimately come out against trump on this question, they might think it's serious enough to take it under consideration, and that alone could run out the clock. >> by dint they're taking it out is a strategy. the supreme court we all remember bush v. gore it took them like a day to issue an opinion on that. >> that's when they normally do come down with their decisions. you know, look, this is a different scenario. this is an interlocutory appeal. there is an indictment pending, a trial set, there are jurors. even a partisan supreme court, even a partisan justice, if they have any shred for the institutional respect for the court system has to recognize that this isn't something they can wait six months on, i don't think. it should be an expedited appeal because it's not like bush v. gore where it's about the election. it's about a pending criminal indictment where jurors have already been called. and i do think -- >> well, it is about the 2024 election, too, in some ways. there's the thinking that the american public should have some conclusion to all this. >> absolutely, those arguments as well. but also i do think there's a decent argument that we're going to have to see the briefing and how judge chutkan rules, whether she can even proceed now with the case. >> and i want to talk about that because there are sort of parallel hurdles here. there's the ultimate question of whether or not he has immunity. but, mark, there's a question of whether or not trump can grind everything to a halt. i think it was very interesting judge chutkan moved forward with the jury selection process. i think the letters went out end of last week, almost this week as a signal of hey, look, the work is starting. the machinery of justice is cranking along. what do you think the likelihood is that a stay is granted here and all of the preparations for this march 4th trial grinds to a halt? >> i think it's quite unlikely that judge chutkan would grant such a sweeping stay. a more limited stay is within the realm of possibility, but trump's lawyers are arguing here that there is a mandatory freeze on all proceedings as soon as they even file the appeal. so trump's lawyers say, hey, we're going to the d.c. circuit now. judge chutkan, by law you must stop everything you're doing. and they make that argument based on a 5-4 decision last term written by justice kavanaugh that really doesn't say any of that. it was a narrow decision involving arbitration, not a criminal trial. so it's pretty much a hail mary argument that they're making here. and judge chutkan has not shown a lot of tolerance for that, so i don't think she'll be playing along her. but of course as we've discussed for several minutes now, once this gets into the hands of d.c. circuit, the supreme court, higher courts almost always stay the proceedings, and so it still depends way more on who's handling this in the courts above. >> right, that's the point. judge chutkan, it seems sort of comical she'd be deciding on the stay given where she is on the immunity appeal to begin with. the circuit court has been remarkably generous, if you will, in issuing these stays even on the gag order. it returned to the status quo, which was donald trump was ungagged and continued to make inflammatory, dangerous comments about court officials when he was ungagged. this is less immediately perilous to any perp, so could they, yes, we should stop everything on appeal? >> i'd be very interested to see the government's response to the motion because, yeah, i think when you have an appeal there is a certain jurisdictional element here that, okay, the appeal is happening now, you can't go forward. i do agree there could be a more limited stay. it doesn't mean that juries -- the jury selection process here is going to take forever so that's why she started it. maybe that can continue because that doesn't involve the parties. there are maybe certain ways -- this is also unprecedented that it's hard to know. i will say the d.c. circuit has also been pretty remarkably fast. that's not unusual for them, and they have continued that. so that i think is hopeful. >> well, there are a lot of what-ifs. i'm not one to quote donald rumsfeld, but known unknown in this case. thank you both for your expertise and wisdom in unpacking all this. i appreciate it. we have lots more tonight. you've heard the alarm bells all week about donald trump's revenge plans should he win re-election, and now we have a look at all the tools at his disposable if he gets back into the white house. >> but first revisionism is in full swing from the republican courthouse to the presidential primary. we'll have more on that coming up next. primary. we'll have more on that coming up next. since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? did we peak your interest? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible, it's happening. today a former california police chief turned january 6th rioter was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison for his role on the attack on the capitol. during his sentencing he launched into a rant after federal prosecutors referred to him as a poster child for january 6th conspiracy theories. in response he told the court that he felt like he was live in a parallel universe and that he believed the capitol insurrection was a setup by the cia, the fbi, and the department of homeland security. his source for that was this guy. >> why am i the only person on the stage at least who can say january 6th now does look like it was an inside job, that the 2020 election was indeed stolen by big tech, that the 2016 election, the one that trump won for sure, was also one that was stolen from him by the national security establishment. >> vivek ramaswamy is unbelievably but somehow also not surprisingly not the only republican to embrace the january 6th tinfoil hat nery. in a recent court filing lawyers for donald trump reveal that he plans to make january 6th conspiracy theories part of his defense in the federal 2020 election interference case as proof trump's legal team has asked the justice department for all documents regarding individuals like ray epps, falsely claiming that epps was an undercover agent and that january 6th was a false flag event. joining us now is mark liebovich, staff writer at the atlantic. we watched conspiracy theories take hold. and i think there's been discussion this week how to stop the plaidness and in particular if the toothpaste can be put back into the tube with some more extreme positions of the gop here. i wonder when you have someone like jivek ramaswamy saying stuff on the national stage when he's one of the leading candidates running for the republican nomination, you see the realtime effect that has. can the tath paste be put back in the tube? >> viramaswamy at this late date is still up on that stage. it seems a lot of republicans are tuning him out, which is obviously a good thing. obviously as we saw from those legal proceedings in california, people listen to this stuff. people believe it. and the fact is, you know, for the last seven years this has been coming from the most powerful, the most vocal, visible figure in the republican party, donald trump. he is the conspiracy theorist in chief in the party, and it's obviously trickled down a great deal. and for as long as that continues, there will be a market for someone like that. i would like to think that as people move closer to actually thinking about who they're going to vote for, people might take this more seriously. i think if in fact someone raises these conspiracy theories in a court, you know, it probably won't get a very -- you know, a very serious consideration from a judge. i have a feeling as a legal defense that's not going to work very much. the fact is if you look at polls what republican voters believe, it's quite often very much out of touch with the reality of things on the ground. >> and yeah, and it's not just out of touch but way ibin another universe. not just january 6th a peaceful gathering, january 6th being an inside job is a someone who wants to hold the highest office in the land. there's been talk or calls, if you will, from democrats and republicans alike that more republicans need to raise their hands and call out fellow republicans for being liars. i want to play some sound from chris christie last night, and this is what he had to say on the topic of donald trump. >> i look at my watch now. we're 17 minutes into this debate and except for your little speech in the beginning, we've had these three acting as if the race is between the four of us. the fifth guy who doesn't have the guts to show up and stand here, he's the one who as you just put it is way ahead in the polls, and yet i've got these three guys all seemingly to compete with voeld vodemort, or he who shall not be named. >> so far chris christie is very lonely in this job. when and how does this dynamic change if ever? >> i don't think it's going to change certainly through this election cycle. chris christie is probably not going to win the republican nomination. he's not getting a lot of traction in the polls. at least he's getting on the stage. i do think despite the calls he drop out and maybe endorse someone like nicky hailhy who has a better chance of beating trump, he's playing a role as a reality check in these debates and given what his message has been. it's probably not going to be a winning message, but it's extremely important in the same way there have been truth tellers in the republican party. liz cheney's book is number one on the amazon list now. there are a lot of people making responsible arguments whether in journalism, politics, presidential candidates in the case of kristi. ultimately he was saying, his point is the people who could actually beat donald trump, mainly ron desantis and nikki haley, essentially like the play for second place at this point because there's nowhere near trump in the polls and don't seem to be making much of an effort to try to cream into his lead at all. i think that's sort of where we are, and i think it's probably useful for christie to point that out. >> can we talk about nikki haley after her debate performance and she may be the best hope for a not trump candidate in the general. do you think you're going to see more democrats, and i'm thinking now of reed hoffman, the democratic donor who's giving money to nikki haley's campaign but democrats and centrists trying to rally support around her as the best option to stave off a potential trump presidency? >> yeah, i think so. i don't think democratic money especially when news of democratic money and even the coach brothers moving public opinion in ooergt direction. the fact is i think she's running a much better race than desantis. desantis her hope is she can knock him out before south carolina and she'll have a clear shot at trump once the first two states are behind them. ultimately, though, haley doesn't seem to be playing to win just yet. i'd be very curious to see if she has something in her that will roly actually run against donald trump. right now she's sort of done the safe oh, he's the chaos candidate, i liked his administration, i liked what he did policy wise, but we need new blood. all the safe code words squaand policy terms and not going after him the way christie is. i don't know if she has another move in her and ultimately her goal is to play for second place or position herself for 2028. we'll see. right now she's running a big race, but i don't think it's going to get her beyond second place. >> all right, from your words to i don't know nikki haley's ears. always good to see you, my friend. thank you for your time. >> thanks, alex. we have much more to get to this evening but we first have a little programming note for you. tomorrow night on this program we'll bring you a special report from inside new york city's storied roosevelt hotel. now, if you don't know what the roosevelt is, it is the city's main intake center as of this year for thousands of homeless migrants. it has become a symbol of the ongoing nationwide fight over immigration. >> over 100,000 people have come to this city. our hearts are big but our resources are not numerous. the solution is not just new york city. the solution is a united state. >> secretary mark has announced temporary protection for hundreds of thousands of venezuelans. these migrants will be able to apply for work permits. >> we know they come from prisons. we know they're terrorist. it's poisoning the blood of our country. >> we are here because they came here and they helped build this city. >> it's an extraordinarily complicated and important topic. we're going to be airing our exclusive report tomorrow night. stay with us. stay with us i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! 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(man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. one of former president trump's most common refrains is that the department of justice is rigged, that it's been weaponized against him by president biden. well, tonight president biden's adult son has been indicted by federal prosecutors for nine tax related charges in the state of california. three of those charges are felony tax offenses, six are misdemeanors. all of them are for the tax years between 2016 and 2019, during which a special counsel in this case alleges that hunter biden willfully failed to pay his taxes on time. hunter biden has since paid all the back taxes and fines for those years, but the core allegation remains that he willfully did not pay them for years when he could have. if convicted mr. biden faces a maximum penalty of up to 17 years in prison although actual sentences are well below the maximum. these new charges in california come on top of the gun charges hunter biden is already facing in delaware, and you would think that the president's son being federally indicted multiple times would be evidence of how even handed the justice department is being here. but prepare yourselves for a conservative onslaught using it hunter biden charges to draw false equivalents between the relatively minor crimes that biden's son is being charged with and the grave abuses of power the former president is accused of while also claiming that the whole system is rigged against conservatives and only conservatives. these new charges also mean that the already unprecedented 2024 presidential campaign calender will get even more complicated. donald trump has his d.c. election interference case scheduled for march, and his georgia election interference case pencilled in for a potential august start date, and now there may also be two trials of president biden's son happening then heart of election season. expect wall to wall coverage of hunter biden's legal troubles on conservative media from now until election day. we have no idea what kind of conservative media coverage is planned for donald trump's legal troubles. when we come back, donald trump has a lot of options to make a lot of unprecedented moves to win back the white house. barton gelman from the atlantic joins me to discuss coming up next. c joins me to discuss coming up next sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see how much you can save. (man) mm, hey, honey. looks like my to-do list grew. "paint the bathroom, give baxter a bath, get life insurance," hm. i have a few minutes. i can do that now. oh, that fast? remember that colonial penn ad? i called and i got information. they sent the simple form i need to apply. all i do is fill it out and send it back. well, that sounds too easy! (man) give a little information, check a few boxes, sign my name, done. they don't ask about your health? (man) no health questions. -physical exam? -don't need one. it's colonial penn guaranteed acceptance whole life insurance. if you're between the ages of 50 and 85, your acceptance is guaranteed in most states, even if you're not in the best health. options start at $9.95 a month, 35 cents a day. once insured, your rate will never increase. a lifetime rate lock guarantees it. keep in mind, this is lifetime protection. as long as you pay your premiums, it's yours to keep. call for more information and the simple form you need to apply today. there's no obligation, and you'll receive a free beneficiary planner just for calling. donald trump has made no secret of his plans should he end up back in the white house after the 2024 investigation. and criminal investigations into his actions before, during, and after the 2020 election and use federal resources to investigate and prosecute his political enemies. but as the atlantic's barton gelman writes in how trump gets away with it. the answer is apparently a lot. when it comes to those criminal investigations of either himself or his political enemies only tradition, not bind law, prevents the president and his political apinties from issuing orders to fbi about its investigations. there is little to stop trump from firing special counsel jack smith. he may be removed for misconduct, dereliction of duty, incapacity, conflict of interest, or for other good cause. no law would prevent trump from arguing the charges against him should be dropped. he can do so in a trial with progress right up to the moment a jury returns a verdict. trump will be able to avoid going to prison even if he's already convicted of charges before he's sworn in. a trial judge is unlikely to order trump imprisoned even after sentencing before he exhausts his appeals and where there's no plausible scenario in which that happens before inauguration day. at any time while trump's appeals are pending, his justice department may notify the appellate court that the prosecution no longer wishes to support his position. the effect if the court grants the request is to vacate a conviction. so that's what he'd like to do and how he'd go about it, but then the question is who exactly will do donald trump's bidding so that he can get all of that done? barton gelman has a few ideas about that and joins me now. author of the most terrifying pieces about the what-ifs i have ever read. this one is no exception. barton, you talk about in the piece in the way in which trump may be able to get -- and this is euphemistic -- unsavory characters in trump land into high office cabinet level positions because there's an interesting kind of work around in federal law. can you talk about how you would get someone like i don't know stephen miller named secretary of homeland security? >> so you have to start off by thinking who could be confirmed by the senate, and of course it depends who controls the senate, but someone like stephen miller who is officially controversial, maybe he'd have trouble in a republican senate, but that's nut the end of the question because then there's the vacancies reform act, which allows trump who loves acting appointments to appoint someone secretary of homeland security or attorney general on an acting basis. >> just a temporary fill in forever. >> just a temporary fill in if it's at the begin of the administration's 307 days, later in the administration it's 207 days. they can be re-upped. nourd to qualify someone that someone has to be already confirmed in a senate confirmed position. and all the people senate confirmed will be the people serving under biden. >> right. so unlikely he'll be using any of those folks. >> except there's another loophole here. there are probably about a hundred republicans who are in senate confirmed positions under joe biden because there are all these boards like the national labor relations board that are required by law to be balance by party. there have to be democrats and republicans. >> so there's republican scattered about the biden administration, but one would assume they are not going to be officially conservative for trump's purposes. >> trump's people are looking. do they have some maga people under cover already in the u.s. government? if not, they have to find someone who is at least a gs15 on the federal pay scale who is in -- >> so relatively senior for those not familiar. you have to be a relatively senior administration official and then you can occupy the position for 90 days, is that right? >> you can -- you have to have been in that position -- >> sorry, you would have had to be in that position for 90 days and then you can be in acting esh -- that's the work around. you hire someone like stephen miller to be in a position for 90 days and then he can be someplace trump can name as acting attorney general or the secretary of homeland security. some people thought kash patel would never be director of the cia and never get past the sen, but there is a work around for something like that. can you talk a bit about this piece is so exhaustive in research. the ways in which trump could avoid jail time potentially if convicted of federal crimes before election day, what exactly he would have to do to avoid that. >> so as you said correctly right up until the moment when the jury delivers its verdict, the just department could simply drop the case. and say we interrupt these deliberations and we don't have to decide whether he's guilty, we're dropping the charge. if he's already convicted, then the justice department gets the confession of error and says we've changed our mind, we're not going to oppose his appeal, we believe the charge or conviction should be vacated. nothing stops the justice department from doing that, and that's certainly what would happen if trump were -- >> effectively running and running the justice department as he basically says he would be. >> right. so that's a certainty. the harder question becomes like so many other things thin trump world, it has never been resolved or litigated is what would happen to state charges. >> yes. >> right, so suppose he's in the middle of trial on the georgia case or even has been convicted, the justice department will go to the federal court and argue that it is unconstitutional for a lesser sovereign, the state of georgia -- >> fani willis. >> fani willis, to attempt to imprison the chief executive of the united states because that would prevent the chief executive from doing his constitutionally required duties. and almost certainly the court would say this has to go on pause until the end of the presidency, so that takes you to trump '29. >> and indeed jump mcafee down in georgia was asked when feasibly would be a good time to start this trial with donald trump, and they said after he finishes out his second term in the year 2029. there are a lot of directions and information ability how to skirt the guardrails of democracy. it is terrifying and compelling. still ahead this evening texas law bans nearly all abortions with very limited exceptions. one pregnant woman went to court and challenged what those bans meant for her, and today she won. more on that story is coming up next. won. more on that story is coming up next we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. first time i connected with kim, she told me that her husband had passed. and that he took care of all of the internet connected devices in the home. i told her, “i'm here to take care of you.” connecting with kim... made me reconnect with my mom. it's very important to keep loved ones close. we know that creating memories with loved ones brings so much joy to your life. a family trip to the team usa training facility. i don't know how to thank you. i'm here to thank you. this morning in texas a district court judge granted an emergency motion allowing a woman to get an abortion. after 20 weeks of pregnancy 31-year-old kate cox learned her fetus has a fatal abnormality. her life and fertility were at risk. tex has a series of abortion bans so strick with medical exemptions so narrow that people like kate cox need to get a judge to approve lifesaving abortions. so last week cox and her husband sued the state of texas so that she could have the procedure. in the court hearing today the texas attorney general's office argued that ms. cox does not qualify for medical exemption under the state's abortion laws but the judge disagree. the idea ms. cox wants to be a parent and this law might cause her to lose that liability is shocking and would be a genuine miscarriage of justice. in the meantime attorney general paxton sent a letter to three texas hospitals warning that the judge's motion will not insulate you or anyone else from civil or criminal liability for violating texas' abortion laws. it does not enjoin actions brought by private citizens. joining me now is senior correspondent at new york magazine. erin, you're so indispensable in reporting on all this. i wonder first what you make of the words of ken paxton, the a.g. who seems to be threatening the bounty hunter law to prosecute anyone who might assist ms. cox on abortion. >> there are so many abortion laws in texas. there are five different ones. each one has different language about medical exemptions. it is hard to understand which way he plans to prosecute. in the letter he sent to the hospitals he threatened felony prosecution. so there's all kinds of interwoven laws that are restricting both pregnant people and their providers. now, i feel like we should step back. the reason we have never seen a case like this, you and i were talking about this. it is extraordinary for someone who has an ongoing pregnancy who needs an abortion to actually go through this process, an adult begging a court to let her have a lifesaving abortion, one that will again if she does not have it harm her fertility and her health. the reason is that doesn't happen is because once that person is in front of a lawyer, usually that means they can go out-of-state and they don't have to put themselves -- so the center for reproductive rights has a lawsuit with 22 women come of whom had to give worth to a deformed fetus and one had arm was black with clotted blood because she was not able to get the care she needed. i imagine the same options are available to ms. cox, but she's choosing to fight this fight in order to bring about justice one hopes and also look what's happening. look at the lengths in which paxton is going. the court understands this should qualify under any reasonable health exception. but even having gone through all this process, the texas attorney general wants to prosecute doctors for providing care that is going to provide the betts outcome to their patient. >> and presumably they're going to appeal this. >> but they want to disobey a judge in order to force this woman to harm her health, to give birth to a fetus or baby that will live maybe painful hours. >> you know, the bravery and the tenacity of kate cox in this moment to take her case to the courts, to show america, to show texas lawmakers what it means to impose restrictions on pregnant people, show spoke to "nightly news" this evening. and i want to play a bit of sound from kate cox reacting to this decision. >> i would ask to, you know, look at my situation and maybe think about your wife or your sister, your daughter and see the hurt. >> the ways in which the stories of these women have completely up ended the political narrative the conservative right wing has tried to establish. these sisters, mothers, daughters, everyone else facing unfathomable, unforeseen circumstances and need care. i wonder what you think this does to the sort of political dynamic and the right's desire to outlaw abortion nationally. >> i think even the pro-choice side has been caught off-guard hume people have been ensnared in this. people going through challenging and difficult pregnancies they don't need to be going to a lawyer and fighting a hospital board. but the fact people have decided to speak up about this, talk to reporters go to court shows they realize this implicates their justice, their health, their liberty and it's not rare. that's the other thing. i will say this, too, the bigger context here is that the anti-abortion movement thinks of exceptions as loopholes for funsies that if exceptions are too capacious women will line up with abortion get out of jail free cards. they are intentionally making these exceptions as narrow as possible to try to make it so you have to be at death's door. they do not accept a lethal fetal diagnosis as a reason for exception. and they are willing to persecute this woman all the way to the hospital door to try to enforce that. >> and the battle isn't over. i just remembered during the peak of the anti-obamacare backlash it was get the government out of my health care. and now you have literally the texas attorney general telling a woman and her doctor that she can't have an abortion because he's decided the fetus in her uterus should be brought to term. it is unbelievable the level of violation being visited upon these women. thank you for speaking so passionately and brilliantly about a topic so absolutely wrenching. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. the one thing i would point out, though, is that he's paid back all the taxes and the

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