trial. but wove got breaking news in the hostage deal in the israel-hamas war. israeli officials saying talks are continuing and on track, but the release of prisoners has been delayed until at least friday. they did not give a reason f the delay, and it's unclear what this means for the timing of the pause in the fi. the top line deal parameters -- 50 israeli hostages, all women inroups over a four-day pause in the fighting. inexchange for 150 palestinian prisoners that are curntly held by israel. israeli prime minster benjamin netanyahu saying this late today. >> translator: as the prime minster of israel, i often find myself in a position in which i need to make very difficult decisions between a hard choice and an everyone harder one, and that is the case with the release of the hostages. >> and three of the released hostages -- or to be released hostages are are american according to jake sullivan, the national security adviser. >> right now the ball is in hamas' court. if they have any care or concern for continuing or any sensibility it will continue to release hostages and this pause can continue. >> as we go, key parts of the deal still hammered out, including when will it start and who will be included? we're also learning about the secret five-week negotiations that took place behind the scenes. politico reporting that shortly after october 7th, quote, qatar suggested that a small sell be formed between the united states and israel to work the hostage issue. with top officials working their contacts and the phones to coordinate on how best to strike a deal with hamas. now families of the hostages hope and pray in anticipation that their loved ones will be among that are freed. >> it's like a russian roulette. we are waiting to see who will come back home. it's crazy. >> no information. i'm very nervous. i want just good news. i don't want any bad news anymore. >> until i saw him here -- see him here in house, then i will believe it. i don't believe nothing yet. >> it's the moment i see them and hug them, then i know that my nightmare is finished. till then, everything is open. it's very delicate and fragile. >> joining me now, david road nbc senior executive editor. a two-time pull itser winner who himself was taken hostage in 2008. he managed to escape. mark is now a nbc news and msnbc analyst. gentleman, thanks for joining school bus getting the show started. david, i'd like to start with you first. what's your reaction to the apparent delay in the release of prisoner and execution of this agreement? do you read anything into this is not happening as soon as we thought it would? >> i'm hopeful. one of the concerns for prime minster netanyahu is sort of, whoer the 150 palestinians that are going to be released in exchange for the 50 hostages that would come back to israel. they could be vetting them. you know, a huge potential political stakes for netanyahu if one of these palestinians was somehow involved in a terrorist attack. that's a good cause. and i think it's a good sign you're not hearing statements from israel or hamas they're backing out of this deal, so hopefully this is just a minor delay and this exchange will go forward. >> you know, mark, part of this deal also includes the opportunity for israelis to actually lodge objections formally to the deal. your thoughts on the deal generally and whether or not you think that there's going to be any opposition, seeing how it's a very select group of hostages that should be released. >> well, first of all, katie, i really sympathize with the families of the hostages them delay is just more psychological torture. and it pains me -- david will certainly understand this from what he went through. the famiies are the one who is really suffer here. many of whom don't know who's going to be released. in terms of the deal itself, israel has almost a social contract, a compact with its citizens that if they're taken they're going to get them back. while the deals seem lopsided they do go forward with them. israel is not thrilled with the four-day pause. in their view they were making progress. despite the civilian considerableties, the israelis moved through gaza. they killed scores of hamas operatives. ultimately it's a deal israel believes has to be solidified, and i sympathize for the families now. just more delay, more torture. i think ultimately hamas is the one who is controlling the shots here and is putting the families through just absolute terrible times. >> you know, david, we mentioned that politico reporting as we started to show. this is a multipage agreement from what we've seen in the reporting. it took weeks to come to fruition. do you think that this is in any way -- i don't try to look at this through rose colored glasses, but do you think this in any way sets the stage for more diplomacy, for more hostages to be released? >> i think it does, and i actually want to add one thing. i agree with the use of the term torture. the problem here, the fault for all of this lies with hamas. there was absolutely no need to take any captives. it's 230 people. we've never seen a kidnapping this large. and so it is hamas at fault here. there's always tensions. families get frustrated with governments they want them to trade for prisoners. all the captives i've spoken to and my own feelings is it is the kidnappers who were the ones to blame. i do hope this will be a confidence building process. you'll have 50 in the first group, hopefully another 50 after that. but i want to be honest. even if they get all the hostages freed, there's an enormous humanitarian crisis in gaza. you know, the death toll according to hamas 14,000 palestinians, 5,000 palestinian children. and the future is very unclear. prime minster netanyahu talked about wanting to have buffer zones, wanting to keep israeli forces in gaza, wanting to whose which palestinians have a say in wanting to run gaza. to palestinians that sounds like they're going to be shrunken to a smaller part of gaza. so it's this broader issue of how to address the israeli palestinian conflict remains a enormous challenge. the hostages should come home, but there's a huge amount of work to do here even if they do. >> mark, a couple minutes ago you said that you think that hamas is in the driver's seat for this deal and maybe the ability to get or to gain a cease-fire in the fighting. but israel, to david's point, to your point, has always been explicit that that compact that you talk about between israeli government and its citizens is they're going to get them back no matter what. if that's the case, is hamas buying itself enough time to regroup, get help from third-party nations to fight another day? >> there's no doubt hamas is going to use this four-day pause, and it might be more because per the terms of the agreement, in hostages come out, they're going to try to continue on for eight to ten more days. so they're going to use this to regroup. hamas, in terms of the military side of the equation, this is a benefit to them. but i think one of the things that the israeli government, the israeli military is, this four-day pause and even more ends up becoming institutionalized, cease-fire's going to be demanded by the international community with all the aid coming in. israel thinks they have to keep going. just, you know, hamas in the southern gaza strip is their next target. with a cessation of hostilities, there's going to be calls internationally for them to stop, and i think that's of concern to the israeli government, and the u.s. government is going to have to figure out what to do after this hostage agreement is concluded. >> david, is there a value from getting intelligence, intel from the hostages once they are successfully and safely returned? because israel could benefit, i suspect, from being able to find out and maybe even get the evidence that the international community is demanding when it comes to where these command centers are located, the use by hamas of centers such as hospitals. >> my experience is i was blindfolded whenever i was moved from location to location. i would think hamas is following that sort of situation. hopefully they are -- it's a horrific experience, you know, how and what these captives are going through, but the captors want to keep you alive, so, you know, they will come out, but they also want to captives -- hamas wants to captives to know very little valuable intelligence. so i don't think they'll be able to identify locations. i think they won't be shown anything that could be used by intelligence agencies, but they'll immediately be questioned. even the smallest amount of information could help israeli intelligence. >> even the release of one hostage is something the families and everyone would be grateful for this holiday. thanks for being here. i appreciate it. and coming up, new details about mike johnson's push to, quote, clean up some landmark support rulings that protect your rights. plus, why even trump's former aides are raising the alarm about his anti-democratic plans if he wins the white house again. first, a dramatic twist in trump's civil fraud trial. a former executive breaking down in tears on the stand and revealing some potentially damning evidence. why trump may not be happy about this note you're looking at now. we're back in just 60 seconds. . ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. turning to some dramatic testimony in the donald trump new york a.g. civil fraud trial. former trump organization controller jeffrey mcconnie breaking down in tears while on the stand, testifying about why he left the company, and mcconnie confirming a potentially damning piece of evidence against donald trump and other codefendants. admit about stand he wrote this note, which says, quote, djt -- that's donald j. trump -- to get final review on a draft of trump's net worth statement, which the state alleges contained $3.5 billion in exaggerations. this testimony beingelicited on the same day fani willis made a surprise at a hearing in georgia against harrison floyd. willis giving trump's defense a preview of the kind of tough questioning it could see at a trial for trump himself. >> there are real consequences for allowing defendants to intimidate witnesses. do you enjoy being called a piece of fecal matter? >>. no. >> we're concerned about the safety of -- she has clearly endured enough, and expect the court can take exception. he can publicly criticize me all he wants. i do not value his opinion. but that he may not do is do things that publicly intimidate witnesses. >> joining me now, mario renati and hugo lowell. renato i'll start with you. let's start with the a.g. fraud trial. what do you make of that testimony alleging that trump would have final review of a fraudulent document? >> very interesting, because ultimately at the end of the day, that is going to put knowledge in donald trump's head. this case comes down to these false statements and whether or not trump knew about the false statements used to mislead lenders. what's interesting is he was prepared to put the blame on mazars. he on direct examination was trying to say it was all the accounting firm, all these other people. it wasn't until one of the attorney general's team went up and cross examined him he actually had to admit, well, actually, myself and donald trump, we were the ones who were doing a lot of the fact checking when it came to the documents. >> hugo, mcconnie was a defense witness, which is mind boggling because on cross he made this damning admission under oath. there are some people say, isn't this much ado about nothing? because the judge already found fraud on the part of donald trump and other defendants, has delivered the kill shot to businesses. i know it's on appeal, but there are other counts that are being tried by the new york a.g., so all of this is a necessary step towards the a.g. perhaps getting all of the counts it once found in its favor, right? >> i think that's right. the new york a.g. wants as damning a picture as can be produced because that will lead justice gorham to presumably award her the damages that she is looking for, whether that's the full $250 million that they're asking for or whether it's the revocation of the business licenses so that the trump org would cease to exist in the state of new york in its current form. all of this evidence goes towards making that case. obviously the stronger the case is, the worse it is for trump. i think this is one of those final nails in the coffin, to to speak. trump himself was trying to make the case when he was on the stand that it was all up to the accounting firms, it was all up to mazars. he wasn't looking at them directly and statements of financial condition were not things he was personally overseeing. suggests based on that memo t was not the case. >> renato, at the same time trump ramping up attacks on the judge and his law clerk. what does this say about the current legal battle over that gag order, not only that was issued in new york, but also what's going on in d.c. with that chutkan limited order? >> very interesting because judge goran's gag order was limited. he was focused on protecting his staff. there's an order submitted recently that said there was an overwhelming number of threats serious threats made on the judge in the new york case. i actually think in both those circumstances both in the new york case and d.c., what judges are grappling with is the broad language of first amendment opinions coming from the united states supreme court or new york court of appeals with the reality that there's some serious threats and an attempt by trump to, you know, run aground this legal process. i think what you're going to see in both cases is both the new york court of appeals and d.c. circuit of appeals narrowing the gag orders and ultimately preserving them against donald trump. >> hugo, let's go south to georgia. you and i spent some time together in that courtroom in fulton county. yesterday we get fani willis giving us a preview of her courtroom style with her very firing questioning. admittedly harrison floyd took it on the chin yesterday. was it a tactical move for fani willis to do this hearing herself? >> i think it was very significant that madam d.a. showed up to do the hearing herself. you know, it kind of sets the tone. it was the first offensive motion that the district attorney's office has mounted. the other hearings to date has been whether it's removal or kind of motions to dismiss that they have had to grapple with. so i think it set the tone. with harrison floyd in particular it was quite interesting, because his tweets essentially adding these potential trial witnesses, and then the rico case against trump in georgia. the question was whether or not that was, you know, direct communication with witnesses or whether that was witness intimidation, and i think the judge kind of passed a pretty fine line, and it was quite a smart way he proceeded with this, which was to say, yes, harrison floyd did violate some conditions of release, but not all the tweets were of the same kind of extreme. and he left himself the opportunity, i think, if there was a motion made down the line for trump's tweets to be called into question, whether they violated trump's own condition of release, for him to -- for the judge to say, basically the conditions of release have to be narrowed, was a smart way for him to deal with it. >> renato, hugo is setting the table for the question i have for you. your take on the modified bond order for harrison floyd. i looked at it compared to the one donald trump -- from the arraignments for these particular defendants, including donald trump. the one for harrison floyd, tighter, more narrow than the one for donald trump, but do we now have a template, renato, that the other defendant, including donald trump, could be looking at if they were to violate their bond conditions? >> oh, absolutely. i think donald trump looks for openings and tries to figure out exactly how far up to the line he can go without having real consequences. and i think -- what i think people are discovering, people at home watching this, is in a lot of ways the legal system gives you a lot of second chances and gives you a lot of opportunity, some gray areas. the judges will give you a warning at first. it takes a while for there to be real consequences. i do think donald trump is trying to figure out what he can get away with in terms of intimidating witnesses, riling up supporters, slandering the judges and prosecutors. what can he get away with urn the guise of the first amendment in order to bolster his political campaign and potentially raise some money and do other things he's trying to accomplish? absolutely think that ultimately what the judge did here is going to leave the door open. i don't think this is the last time that the judge is going to have to deal with a bond hearing in this case. >> as i've said, you're setting him up to fail when you give them this much rope to hang themselves. renato, hugo, thanks. later in the show, a special guest on how the gop is out of step with voters on women's rights. plus, stunning new audio of gop speaker mike johnson calling people, quote, inherently evil, and abortion a, quote, american holocaust. and new warnings from historians as well as top democrats about trump's threat to democracy and fascist impulses. impulses i go to spin classes with my coworkers. good for you, shingles doesn't care. because no matter how healthy you feel, your risk of shingles sharply increases after age 50. but shingrix protects. proven over 90% effective, shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care but, shingrix protects. shingrix is now zero dollars for almost everyone. ask your doctor about shingrix today. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ the power goes out and we still have wifi only pay for what you need. to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. so, i want to turn to a notable escalation in donald trump's violent rhetoric amid the 2024 campaign. his rise to power has always included aggressive rhetoric, but he's shifted to attacking perceived domestic opponents, telling his supporters that his 2024 campaign is the, quote, final battle, and call his political adversaries, quote, vermin. >> we pledge to you that we will root out the communist, marxist, fascist, and radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. "the new york times" prompting the question whether this fascist sounding rhetoric is, quote, just his latest public provocation of the left or an evolution in his beliefs of the dropping of a veil. some experts on authoritarianism with a nua take say even though trump's rhetoric may seem fascist he quote, does not quite mirror fascist leaders of the past, but he does exhibit traits similar to current strong men like viktor orban of country or resip erdogan offeran you. he may not be fascist but that doesn't make him any less threatening. quote, trump is trump and he has no particular philosophy that i've seen after four years as president. noting either way his campaign style is, quote, damn dangerous. joining me now is kurt bardella. kurt, always so good to see you. we hear really alarming and horrific stuff from donald trump all the time, but even i am noting that this latest rhetoric is beyond the pale. am i an outlier on this? >> no, it means you have a functioning brain, katie, and your ears and brain are connected and you're hearing all the things the rest of us normal sane people are hearing. let's be clear here -- after january 6th we know that it's not just rhetoric, it's not just performative, it's not just, i guess, entertainment, what some people might want to call it. this is real. the people that follow donald trump, his most ardent supporters, they hear his words and take them as marching orders take them as directions, and as we saw on january 6th, they act on them. so this isn't just harmless play room donald trump, oh that's what he does, it's hyperbole. this is dangerous. the fact that so many people in the republican party are willing to whitewash what happened january 6th tell mess their plan going forward is if they don't get their way politically they'll instruct their following to incite violence against the rest of us. >> speak of fellow republicans, here's what trump had to say at cpac earlier this year. >> i am your warrior, i am your justice, and for those who have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. i am your retribution. >> i don't think he knows what those words mean, but who is trump's target audience with that kind of language? because you know those january 6th types, don't they see that if you heed trump's call to violence, you, not him, you're the one that goes to federal prison for a long time? >> well, maybe if they were actually watching what we would call news they would know that, but because they instead get their information through that filter of right-wing propaganda media masquerading as news, they don't know about the consequences of the actions of those who went about january 6th. they don't know about the trials and jail times and arrests and sentences. they don't know about the fact that donald trump hasn't spent a single dime of all the money he's raised helping people following his orders. so trump is bet on their ignorance. he's betting on the fact that these propaganda outlets that continue to prop him up will continue to do so without giving the audience facts, news, and information so he can repeat the cycle over and over again. he preys on their ignorance. >> it's not very flattering, right, to those that are supporting him. "washington post" analysis warning that, quote, everyone should assume that trump is very serious about his intent to exact retribution on his foes, because ifis first term his attempts were scatter shot and infective. in his second term he's likely to have more support and success. i cosign on that analysis. even an incompetent trump can work out the bugs from his first term, which is why we shouldn't give him any space to successfully see a second term, right? >> yeah, to all of those democrats out there and i guess independent voters and non-trump voters who are fret right now about things like joe biden's approval rating or the strength of the economy, let me be very clear here -- none of that matters if you elect a fascist wannabe like donald trump, put him in office with no check, no balance, unfiltered power. they are trying to build this machine that will come in, wipe out government as we know it, replace them with like minded domestic terrorists, and then come after all of us. i don't care if you don't like how old joe biden is. i don't care if you don't think he's the greatest thing in the world. the alternatives and choice before sus very clear. it's either the end of democracy, cost, violence, and mayhem, or it's competency. i'm going to take competency over chaos any time. any republicans bedwetting and wasting time about what doesn't matter, listen, the next president gets to decide the judges, get to decide the course of our country women saw, we barely got past four years of donald trump. does anyone think we're going to survive four more years of that? i don't think so. >> it's like pouring kerosene on the conflagration. kurt, thanks for being here. appreciate it. after a string of wins on abortion, they're taking to fight to nine new states. i have a guest on that. first, heat on speaker mike johnson after new revelations expose just how extreme maga mike can be. mike can be. ♪ ♪ we're building a better postal service. for more on-time deliveries. and easier, affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ hey, while you're there, only pay for what you need. grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat. de-licka what? delectables. delickables? delectables. delickable delectables. yes, just hurry! hm. it must be delicious. got it. delectables lickable treat. ♪ deliciously de-lick-able delectables ♪ all right. and your name is what? >> mike johnson. no one's going to forget that. >> so, how did you end up speaker? >> no one knows! >> "snl" mocking republican mike johnson's chaotic path to the speakership. the little known congressman being launched into the national spotlight without the normal vetting process. that vetting's actually now happening in realtime, and it's not going well. cnn unearthing a series of interviews shining light on his extreme views. starting with this. last year a month before roe fell johnson compared abortion to a, quote, american holocaust, listen, in his own words. >> it is truly an american holocaust. mean, the reality is if planned parenthood and all these big abortion, they set up their clinics in inner cities. they are, you know -- they regard these people as easy pray. >> then there's johnson's reaction after roe fell. recall justice clarence thomas' arme in his concurrent opion that the legal reasoning overturning roe could also be used to overturn cases establishing rights to contraception, same-sex sexual relations and same-sex marriage. that's how "the new york times" put it. it alarms legal experts and democrat who is claimed clarence thomas was laying the ground work for attacks on your rights. but it didn't alarm mike johnson. in fact, new audio reveals he agreed. >> there's been some really bad law ma. they've made a mess of jurisprudence in our country. some of that what needs to be clean up. what justice thomas is calling for is not radical. it's the opposite. we finally have a majority of originalists. >> that's not all. johnson claims man is inherently evil and the radical left is god less. take a listen. >> one of the primary purposes of the law is to restrain evil. we have to acknowledge man is evil and needs to be restrained. that's the problem with the radical left. they don't acknowledge a god. >> i guess that's why he has accountability partners. the n audio builds on revelations, including comparisons of the environmentalists as evil and his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. republicans failed to vet johnson. the hits keep coming. at some point it may be impossible for the gop to look away. joining me now, molly john fast, the host of the "fast politics" podcast. so good to see you. happy thanksgiving. look, let's start with the following. we just went through a litany of mike johnson's sound. are you surprised at all by what is now being uncovered regarding his policy positions? >> no, i'm not surprised at all, and i have to say, these are all the things that republicans should not want in a speaker, because they're all the issues that they keep losing on, these social issues, right. like in '22 we saw them lose on abortion in this off-off year election we saw them lose again on abortion in states like kentucky. so it's interesting to me that they've made a man speaker who is, you know, he's against abortion, he's against gay marriage, right, he's sort of for book banning, don't say gay, all of those laws which republicans have not done well with. this guy is emblematic of all of them. >> the problem, though, is mike johnson is the speaker of the house, and he's endorsing things like justice clarence thomas' position, which could lead to attacks on -- further attacks on individual rights. how chilling is that given his current power and role as speaker of the house? >> it's interesting, because you would think if you were smart as a republican trying to win back the presidency in the senate in '24, you would pretend that you didn't want a federal ban. you see the republican candidates running around, trying not to answer if they want a federal banning but here's machine who undoubtly wants a federal abortion ban, so i do think this is going to backfire for them. it was easy enough to just pick someone who was like kevin mccarthy, and they just couldn't do it, and they just panicked and panicked and panic and three weeks went by and they pick the guy who was highest up in leadership, and that guy turned out to be a rnls religious zeal. he has to fundraise and make the case this party isn't filled with religious extremists? how does that happen? >> well, not well if it's going to be on his watch. molly, the sound we played a little bit ago went by quickly. i'm going to play it again. here's what johnson said about abortion access. take a quick listen. >> it is truly an american holocaust. the reality is that planned parenthood and all these big abortion, they set up their clinics in inner cities. they are -- they regard these people as easy prey. >> you know, molly, i want to adhere, too, because sometimes people say, this is tongue and cheek stuff. mike johnson supports imprisonment for abortion doctors, the elimination of hate crime statutes. he thinkss homoswault is a behavior that shouldn't be covered. >> it's making light of the holocaust. i'm jewish. i had a lot of family die in the holocaust and pogroms before it. there were 8 million people. that is not the same as having a fertilized egg. these are not the same thing, and i think that it really does make light of what was one of the great tragedies for the jewish people, so i would add that republicans intend the care about anti-semitism, they should care about that analogy. the whole idea that people are being taken advantage of -- the reason roe was passed in 1973 is because doctors were afraid to treat women. they were losing their licenses. they are getting fines. our maternal mortality was way above what it should have been. now here we are again having this same experience -- doctors not wanting the treat. doctors leaving red states. we are a country that already has terrible maternal mortality. it's only going up. i mean, this is a great example of where these kind of religious zealots do not belong in our hospitals, in our operating rooms. we need to have real medicine that doesn't involve religion. and this country was founded on the premise that the church and the state were two different things. >> i don't know about you, but i would not want to two to a mike johnson mojo dojo casa house. it's already bad enough. molly john fast. thanks for being here. up next, a guest who says we need to think everything we know or think we know about evolution and women. women. hmmm... can this be more, squiggly? 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"eve, how the female body drove 200 million years of human event lug", reframes how we think out evolution with women at the center. the "new york times" book review calling i a opinionated clapbac against r. it's author, scientific researcher is making national headlines and newsworthy interviews. >> this is true in biological research. this is true in biomedical research, we are only studying males. right? it's basically because this thing we call a menstrual cycle, which a biologist would call an estra cycle is so messy. >> we have to get back on reproductive rights because that's a problem and it's a deeply ancient part of our history. >> joining me now, i have kath bauhinen. it's a pleasure to have you here. first question out of the gate, why eve and now now? >> was a we have been radically understudying and understood caring for all women and girls throughout the world for about half a century. well, let's say a bit longer. but let's cut it off half a century, okay, there's a good starting point. biology and biomedical research. we're finally getting to that point where we're beginning to understand why so many women and girls have auto immune problems. why so many different drugs affect us differently. but there's such a big gap to close that we need to keep our foot on the pedal. so that's why now. >> and listen, we saw you talk about reproductive rights and that, quote, deeply ancient part of our history. in what way is that the case? >> so the thing that we often mistake about what so many women go through is that it must be easy for us to make babies because, look, there are 8 billion of us, right? we're good at this. just because something is normal, does not mean it's okay. it's actually the case, our species, the way we go about baby making is terrible. it's absolutely buy logically, quantify bli awful. it is worg than most any other primate, worst than most any mammal. we're bad at this. the only reason we didn't go extinct is we started helping each other give birth and taking the reins of our preproductive lives. lucy, 3.2 million years ago, she had a mid wife. furry little thing and controlled her reproduction in a number of ways. so the thing about republicans now, is that they're not trying to roll back the clock like 50 years. they're actually trying to roll back the clock 3.2 million. they just don't know that that's what they're doing. maybe if they studied a little science. >> science, please, facts, evidence, science that doesn't resonate in the gop. you mentioned a few minutes ago, cat, how women's bodies are historically and scientifically understudied. female bodies aren't male bodies with extra stuff. when scientists study the male norm, we're getting less than half of a complicated picture. all too often we don't know what we're missing by ignoring sex differences because we're not asking the question. why? why has this been the norm for so long and what needs to change about it? >> central thing we have been getting wrong for a long time in the sciences is that bodies are simply a mono model and that ovaries and gonads, testicles and ovaries are hot swappable, like a mr. potato head. actually no, your liver will express thousands of different genes differently depending on the sex of their liver. that affects what drugs you take. but since we hadn't been properly studying females in biology for so long, there are loads of medications on the market that were simply never studied in female bodies. we were mostly studying males to make simpler experiments. basically we got rid of the estra cycle. we pretended that menstruation wasn't a thing in biology. terribly sorry for all of you that have a uterus. >> cat, what are you hoping readers will take away from what you call a users manual for the female mammal? do you think men are going to be just as interested in women in reeding "eve"? >> you know, i had really long signing lines. that's been amazing. it's my first book. a lot of male bodies in that signing line, and not just because their interest in science, i don't think. it's actually because they really want to tell me a lot about their testicles now. that's just a part of my life. that's fine. they want to tell me a lot about their bodies, especially older men because as soon as you talk about the body, you're giving permission to move past tabu and tell other people about your experience and men, too, have a lot of vulnerability in their bodies, especially as they age. and actually in the study of biology of sex differences, we're going to know better how to treat their falling apart male bodies by understanding why they have the vulnerabilities they have. >> you know, cat, i really appreciate the last thought you just expressed about the idea that with you and a book like "eve" it opens the door for people to be more transparent and open because the tabus are really the things that are most destructive and harmful when it comes to society, the conversations we have. although, i would be willing to bet that you would welcome maybe some traffic cop the testicle conversations less they get to be too much. cat, thank you for being here. everyone, the book "eve" is available now. please go out, get it and read it. and we'll be right back with one more thing. > and we'll be rh one more thing liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. - bye, bye cough. - later chest congestion. hello 12 hours of relief. 12 hours!! not coughing? hashtag still not coughing?! mucinex dm gives you 12 hours of relief from chest congestion and any type of cough, day or night. mucinex dm. it's comeback season. in order for small businesses to thrive, mucinex dm. they need to be smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. that's why comcast business is introducing the small business bonus. for a limited time you can get up to a $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. yep, $1000. so switch to business internet from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. comcast business. powering possibilities. before we go tonight, a quick reminder, you can catch me right here on msnbc on the katie phang show weekends at 8:00 a.m. eastern. that does it for me. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. to all of you, happy thanksgiving. u ♪♪ tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i think about her brother and sister who both watched their parents be murdered on october 7th. and abigail coming home for them, for the grandparents, for the family, for allf

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