test in a colorado courtroom this week. and taking action, senate democrats are set to participate in for winchell conservatives with close ties to supreme court justices. i'm ayman wilkie dean, let's get started. it was a family affair for the trumps in new york this week. to have the disgraced ex presidents sons took to the stand to testify and attorney general that you should james's 22 million dollar civil fraud lawsuit against the trump family and their company. first up was donald trump jr., coach of his father's business empire. the ex presidents eldest son faced repeated questions about his role in the trump organization especially as it related to financial statements that the attorney general says we're purposely inflated to benefit the company. now trump jr. did his best to try, i, guess a distance himself from the statement saying he relied on outside accountants and the trump organization's former chief financial officer allen weisselberg to prepare them. while he was pressed by a lawyer for the attorney generals office about his role in the preparation of an annual statement of financial condition, that outlined his father's wealth, trump jr. denied any in valence and actually quipped back saying the accountants run it, that's what we paid them for. and then was eric trump's term on the stand. the attorney general's a lawsuit -- second son responsible for all aspects of management and operation of the trump organization. despite that role, eric trump pushed back against questions about his involvement in his father's financial statements, repeatedly saying, quote, i pour concrete, i operate properties. i don't focus on appraisals. but it appears that eric was unable to hold his cool as well as his older brother. according to nbc news reporter who were inside that courtroom, every kid got testy and raised his voice as the attorney generals office pressed him on his involvement. just a short time after he testified that he had, quote, never worked on the trp organization statements of financial condition and that he, quote, didn't know anything about it until recently, andrew amerie from the attorney general's team was able to get eric to admit on the stand in front of everyone that he was aware, even as far back as 2013. msnbc legal analyst lisa reuben up the attorney generals office in approach the eric trump strategy. now, reuben explains, he wanted to establish that eric trump knew that his father had statements of financial condition, statements that were used in connection with financing and acquisitions. and perhaps most importantly that the trump organization -- sought and obtained information from eric trump personally for use and valuing assets in those statements. and by doing so, and highlighting extra presentations to the contrary at his deposition and on the stand, he was able to expose trump's clear credibility issues for everyone. without directly calling him a liar, the attorney generals office called trump's son to concede that his claim that he had zero knowledge of or involvement in the financial statements was as reuben writes, quote, at best, based on the very faulty memory, and at worst constituted deliberately falsehoods. the a pact of this testimony from both donald trump jr. and eric trump still to be determined. but the risk here is actually very high. their statements in court this week have the potential to not only steal their own fates, but the fate of their father as well. all of this simultaneously jeopardizing the future of their family empire here in new york. let's bring in my panel for this conversation, suzanne craig, an investigative reporter and mason bbc contributor, christina, greer political scientist and social professor of political science at for him university. and catherine christiansen, former assistant manhattan district attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. it's good to have all three of you with us. susan, i would like to start with you, this -- you were in the courtroom this week. lot of drama i would say, but give me from your vantage point the takeaways of where the trial went following the testimonies of don junior and eric trump. >> it was interesting because eric really was -- it was devastating in some ways to watch just how it went for him. it was the repetition of email, after email being shown saying he was involved in these appraisals. after he had said in his deposition last year in front of the attorney general he really didn't have any involvement. and you sort of have to step back and say, okay, if they're saying they had no involvement, what were they doing? they should know what these financial statements, are they should be very much in command of them. they're running this company. especially eric trump. he was the trump that was on the ground day today. for all of his father's presidency. so that is where -- not quite where we left it on friday because after the testimony wrapped up, there was more butting heads about the law clerks, the law clerk, the judge's law clerk. and trump has from the get-go made an issue of her. he's claiming she's biased, she's a democratic operative and she has no business being on this case. and the law clerk for people who don't know, she sits right next to the judge. she's doing her job, but they can for a lot as part of the trial. she sits there, they talk. and it's just driving team trump crazy. and they decided that this is going to be their issue and trump has been filed, but not once, not twice already. and there was already more back and forth about it and the judge just felt -- he widened the gag order to include any comments that they make as well about the law clerk that they could be sanctioned for. >> absolutely incredible that they're going after the law clerk. >> it just feels like a political issue. i don't know if this is gonna play well but the appeals court. they're just doing it for political audience. political audience >> the play for the jury outside the courtroom at this moment. -- from these financial documents that exaggerated their father's net worth. and they're doing it, classic trump fashion. blame everybody but yourself. blame the accountants, blame everyone who is involved. based on what we saw this week, how likely is that defense strategy of pointing the fingers to someone else likely to succeed? >> it's a losing strategy, first of all. accountants prepare financial statements and tax returns based on the information that their clients give them. if the clients give them false information, their tax returns in the financial statements will be false. so to say i don't know it's my countenance, is just not going to be -- it's not a defense that's going to work. not with this judge and not with the appeal in court. and the a.g.'s attorneys were very prepared for the answers of don and eric with document after document and document. surprising that they were not prepared, that anything they say is going to be a financial statement with their signature on it. there's gonna be an email that's gonna have someone talking about a discussion they had with eric gordon about it. their testimony was not helpful in any way for their case. not for them, not for the father, not for the trump organization. >> let me go back to susan's point here about how the trump world has been trying to describe this because we had a glimpse of that after leaving court on friday. you had eric trump echoing the rhetoric of his fired father, calling this case a political witch hunt. i want to play for you and our viewers a little bit more about that. take a listen. >> it docked when [inaudible] they only won to our names in this thing because it sensationalizes the case. we've done absolutely nothing wrong. we have a better company that they can ever imagine. >> again, the facts are that donald junior, erik, ivanka, they all held high-level positions within their fathers company. how do his cries, christina, of collateral damage matchup with the reality that we are seeing? they are helpless children here. they're grown adults who have held executive positions in a multi billion dollar company. >> yes, ayman, let's not forget they held major positions in the u.s. government as well when their father was president which makes me just shudder. but, you know, as susan said, the scale strategy, that's just try to distract from the reality at hand, the emails are there, they said they've received it. those, say the judge is biased now the clerk is biased and it's just a witch hunt on their family. but anyone who lived in new york knows the trump organization has always leaned in the line of the galatea in the four ways sort of skirted to the law and donald trump said so himself while he was campaigning. who pays taxes? only fool's pay taxes. so we know there was something there and eric trump, because he had such a bad day in court, is not going to say this is just a woman from a family. there's some real concerns and the a.g.'s office will not bring these types of charges against the former president and his entire family if they weren't sure that there was something that is tangible. we know that don junior and eric have always been seeking their father's approval. we know i'm sure there's depositions. they were doubling down on making sure that whatever their father said, they said as well. things get a little different when you're on the stand and you're being questioned under oath. in a deposition order, still. obliged to tell the truth. when you're on the stand, and someone is presenting real receipts in front of you and we see the narratives changing, then you go outside the courtroom to the court of public opinion and you're trying to make your case in that way and as kathryn said, that's not gonna cut it. >> one of the interesting things, susan, and i think not all of our viewers are in the weeds and details of this case but sometimes if you are just to listen to the defense of trump they would say there was no nefarious intent here, this was a victimless crime. the prosecution put on the stand an expert witness, i believe a banking expert, who basically said that as a result of these allegations, the trump world saved about 100 and $68 million which is a substantial amount of money that banks and lenders ultimately lost out on. so this is not a -- we are not talking about a victimless crime here or something that is crumbs. we are talking about a significant amount of money that was -- banks were defrauded of. >> that's, right and i think on monday when trump takes the, center gonna hear one of his arguments, it's going to be all the loans were performing. no harm, no foul. all the banks got paid back. but what this expert did is he showed just on four properties because the false statements went in with these inflated values, some of them were just ridiculous, the banks in san -- and it's been testimony, that deutsche bank rely on and some instances that there was short-range, he was 100 and $68 million they could've gotten a lot more money if the rates had actually been what this expert said that they should've been. so we are going to see at the end, there is no receiver in the company because he's already lost on summary judgment and found liable on to fraud eventually i think you're going to see a find that right now the attorney generals looking for 200 and $50 million. we will see assets ills likely to meet that. donald trump is gonna have to write a check at some point for a large amount. this is going to sneak through the appeals court, it's gonna take some time. but at the end of, it there's gonna be a lot to check in for this. >> let me ask you quickly about something that you brought up in the first answer which is a gag order. how likely is that going to be -- that he's gonna follow the judges gag orders? what's the consequence if he doesn't? >> it's interesting because i'm canadian and every time i -- i'm a bit of a rule follower, every time i have it happens i think, it's like going to happen. again because i would never do anything like that. every time we see that -- >> i would say some americans would agree with. you most americans would follow the orders of a judge especially when it's a gag order. i think most of -- us it's not a canadian. think most americans would agree with that as well. >> i never know anymore. >> it's a really trump thing. it's a uniquely trump thing to ignore gutters. >> sometimes it feels like anything goes. i can't believe it every day. but i think -- i was like it's never going to happen again and it does. and now this gag orders been applied to his lawyers as well. i think everybody is going to be watching on monday every time he opens his mouth, is he violating the gag order again? yeah. >> incredible, we're gonna to wait and see. suzanne craig, thank you so. much christine and, kevin stick around. i have a lot more to talk to you about after the break. we're gonna discuss the efforts of keeping donald trump off the 2024 ballot in battleground states. thank you. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. take a moment to pause and ask, why did you get vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia? 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does this colorado sued and others like it have merit? what do you make of trump's defense that his words are protected by the first amendment and that secretaries of state do you not have this power? >> the problem for the plaintiffs is the secretaries of state i believe in those states have said, well, we do not have this power. this has never been tested in any court. it's section three of the 14th amendment, basically in bars anyone who's engaged in insurrection or rebellion from holding an office. so -- the question -- the issue is, one, who's going to make the determination of what an insurrection or rebellion's. the plaintiffs as it sort of self executing in the secretary of states told them that. number two, is the president in office that it refers to? it doesn't specifically say in the section that is the president. but, you know, trump himself has argued that in his civil suits when he tried to get them removed for federal court in his criminal court that it is in office. but also he's not been convicted and is a criminal conviction for insurrection required. remember, the special counsel did not charge donald trump with insurrection or seditious conspiracy. the number of the january six people were tried for seditious conspiracy and convicted. oath keepers and proud boys leaders have been convicted for what happened on january 6th. so the judge has said we are going to move it on. she did not granted direct verdict, he would've dismissed the case. but there are legal arguments for both sides. many people for both sides say just let the people pull decide if they want him to be on the ballot. but what he did allegedly, on january 6th, is very troubling. and people -- were convicted of it and serving time now for seditious conspiracy and for acts committed on january six. they did what they did because he called them to him that day. >> you bring up a lot of the important legal questions about what qualifies a candidate for having committed seditious conspiracy if that person has not been charged with that crime. christina, the watchdog group citizens for responsibility and ethics in washington crew, and several firms, they actually filed the suit on behalf of six republican and unaffiliated voters, not democratic voters, we should note. does that sound like a partisan witch hunt to you like trump and his allies are saying? or do you think that was just more of political gamesmanship on behalf of this organization to bring this lawsuit forward, just to pull the rug from underneath trump on that one argument? them >> i think it's the latter, when ayman? sadly, we've seen a few. things, one donald trump and his supporters consistently moving the goalposts. when it suits them. to, we haven't seen the republican party writ large stand up and talk about january 6th in a way that kathryn laid out. yes, we are still talking about the both sides, well, did he say they should really come, what did the tweet me. we're still parsing through it. where immediately after january 6th, we did have quite a few republicans who pull through everything. this is unacceptable, we could never have a president of the united states say these things to incite this type of violence. and then we will see overtime we swiftly have moved away from those move strong statements and they're falling in line behind on all trump. either for political feign or in 2022, or political -- in 2024. the lack of leadership in the republican party makes these conversations much more difficult because we still have the significant number of people in the party who don't think anything was wrong on january six. so we've seen the consistent erosion of our democratic principles because of that. not just because of the actions of donald trump, but because of the inaction of his party and holding him accountable. >> kathryn, trump's team has called colorado congressman ken buck to testify. interestingly enough, he has been critical of trump recently. but he's also been critical of the january 6th committee which, to your earlier point about determining what role donald trump played in this, is significant. could he be beneficial for prosecutors or detrimental to their case? >> it might be down the middle. let's not forget that three of donald trump's lawyers who were involved with the election fraud, i'll call it scam, particularly in georgia, have pled guilty. countries mom, sydney powell, and jenna ellis. they were three who were involved with -- creating this whole fake elector scheme. general ellis was on the traveling team with rudy giuliani through georgia, spreading lies about election fraud, and sidney powell was involved with the voting machines ban. the lawyers who were involved with this whole fraud talk that turned out to be absolutely false about him winning the election when he really lost it, have already pled guilty. so i think the congressman buck will -- he may not have liked the committee, but he clearly is not one of the election deniers. and that is what the january six, all of what happened on that day was about. donald trump getting these people there to storm the capital because of his false claims that he won the election. so i don't think the congressman will be helpful to donald trump or hurtful to the plaintiffs. >> catherine, christina, please stick around. we will squeeze in a quick break. up, next -- and their ethics issues. we're gonna talk about that and more. with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed without fingersticks. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. it's covered by medicare for those who qualify. ask your doctor about the freestyle libre 2 system. -dad, what's with your toenail? 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(♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. >> senate democrats are escalating their fight with the supreme court over its glaring ethical issues. the senate judiciary committee just announced there will be a vote to support gop megadonor's crow leo and r. kelly -- who pushed for unsuccessfully installed conservative justices on the high court. the subpoenas follows a string of bombshell reports from propublica on these ties to clarence thomas and some aledo. is specifically ending investigation that luxury trips that thomas had taken for two decades that were all funded or paid for by harlan crow. and an undisclosed luxury fission trip that illegal took back with hardly back in 2008. that was also coordinated by leonard leo. christina greer and catherine christian are back with me joining the conversation as well as lisa graves, founder and executive director of true north research and -- on the senate judiciary committee. it's great to have you join this conversation. i will start with you, lisa, you have been instrumental in exposing these billionaires influence on the court. are we finally beginning to see this dark money web unravel or at least come to light? and what is at stake if the justices and the donors involved in this don't face any repercussions for these alleged actions? >> this is an important step forward and i'm certainly applauding efforts by shaun durbin and senator whitehouse in moving ford with subpoenas because every person has an obligation to comply with subpoenas. there's no special privilege for billionaire friends or supreme court justices, or people who installed in the supreme court like leo. and the argument that these individuals have made to assail the send its right to investigate this evidence of corruption from this investigative reporters, their claims are just baseless. in fact, ludicrous to -- the separation of powers right to secretly influence the supreme court justices pay for their luxury lifestyle and congressman do nothing. this is a big step forward. obviously there more steps that need to be taken. but this is a really important step for because the american people get it. by huge numbers. democrats, republicans, and independents agreed the senate judiciary committee has to investigate this stench, this corruption, this corruption that surrounding the supreme court and in particular justice thomas and certainly justice alito as well. >> kathryn, let's talk about the subpoenas for a moment. you have the, hardly, and pro they've been subpoenaed. they've come out with statements denouncing the judiciary's move to subpoena. them if and when they are issued, how can the democrats go about enforcing it given the lessons we've learned from january the 6th? we know that owners have been stonewalling efforts to disclose any information. and we've seen how congressional subpoenas can be in ignored. >> to subpoena, you have to comply, if you, don't you could be held in contempt of congress. that is, you, know they -- have thumbed their nose at congress and they're calling this a witch hunt. but the subpoenas are very important. and normal people who aren't billionaires, who don't have yachts that they offer trips to supreme court justices would have to comply with the subpoena. and it should be known -- the audience should know that federal judges who are in the trial court and are in the appellate court have a code of conduct that they have to abide by. state court judges have a code of conduct. only supreme court justices do not have an ethical code of conduct that we have to abide by. and it's time that they have won. there are three branches of government and the argument that the chief justice roberts has said is that we will take care of it ourselves. but it's very important that if you can have confidence in the supreme court in the decisions that the senate judiciary find out what people have interest for the court and if they can give gifts and have private relationships with these justices. what is that about them, and is that really justice, is that fairness? and all a justice has to do is recuse herself or himself. i went on a yacht trip of this person, i have a relationship with this person. clearly, i can't be fair. and impartial of this particular case. so it's very important if you want to have confidence in the supreme court decisions to know that they are not being bought by people who had interest before them because they had private school tuition paid for by a family member. you do not do gifts like that unless you're a family member or close personal friend, unless you want something in return. that's just how it works. it's silly to think that they didn't want something in return for doing that. they're not close personal friends, and they're not family members. >> to that point, christine, at the point that kathryn just brought up the code of conduct, the ethical code of conduct, senator durbin has pointed out that you've justin's judge roberts could enact a code of conduct toda and three justices, elena kagan, brett kavanaugh, amy cohen barrett have publicly stated that the courts should or adopt a code of ethics. what is justice roberts waiting for here? why is he not doing this? >> i don't know, ayman, why he's vacillating on this because it's very clear in the public opinion in the united states is waiting on the court. they no longer have full confidence that we can trust that the case of that are coming before the court are not already pre-determined just because of the relationships of these justices have. so much of the supreme court that we realized has been based on norms. people behaving a particular way and recusing themselves and -- the two particular justice system question. so it is incumbent upon john roberts to move forward especially since he has the support of three of his colleagues. because we know especially justice thomas, he doesn't recuse himself, especially when he has relationships with people who are coming before the court. and it's only eroding the public's confidence and trust in the court. and we know that the court cases that are coming before the court are getting more polarizing, more important as it seems as though this particular conservative court relishes in taking rights away from americans as opposed to expanding our various rights. >> lisa, i want to get your thoughts on this argument that we hear time and time again. the justice branch, including the supreme court, a separate but coequal branch of government, therefore congress does not have the power to impose -- on the court. that is something that harlan crow has said in the past. as someone who has extensively worked in court policy, break down that argument for us that the supreme court and the judicial branch in our government, in our constitution, basically does not have oversight. because on its surface, that seems fundamentally flawed that there would be a branch of government that has no oversight. >> a pleasant the checks and balances that are fundamental to the petition. but it's files and the face of history. there are -- by supreme court justices following or saying that they're following the ethics and government act. that statute has been in the book since 1978 and it's unquestioned that it applies to supreme court justices. it's only recently as these misdeeds have been exposed as an extraordinary evidence influence peddling from billionaires, not just any billions, but billionaires -- to change our rights. it's only now that some -- there's an assertion that congress has no power to regulate these justices. every justice on the supreme court has filed this forms and the certified under severe level penalties that those forms are accurate. but we know that they're not based on this reporting. it is not just the government and ethics act. the judiciary act of 1789 was passed by congress by the first bill is passed by congress to create procedures for the court, including the oral rules of the supreme court. so it's literally been hundreds of years in which government has exercised authority over the supreme court. of course -- to impeach justices and supreme court. so this notion that the you and his lawyers have picked up and david rifkin supposedly interviewed alito about in the wall street journal -- and leo's lawyer where alito gives us a opinion that a supposedly congress has no power of the court, it's absurd. and it flies in the course of history and the actual attestations of these very justices, that they have been saying that they have to follow these rules and certifying that they're following these rules. >> as i was going to, say i would take it to get further to say that it flies face in the average american that no judicial branch has oversight from congress on it. lisa graves, kathryn, christina, i can't thank you enough, i appreciate your time this evening. next, we are changing pace. tens of thousands of demonstrators converge on the 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the context of the palestinian struggle in the united states. >> similar protests spend the globe with thousands marching in paris, london, and berlin. this weekend, we want to highlight an issue that hasn't been covered as much since the war began and that is the significant increase in israeli settler violence and threats against palestinians in the occupied west bank. a short time, ago i spoke with israeli human rights lawyer michael is far about what is happening on the ground in the west bank. >> michael savard, thank you so much for joining us. i want to start with what is happening in the west bank obviously. we have seen since their violence there against palestinians in the occupied west bank skyrocketing. it's been going on for decades but since october 7th, it has escalated to record levels. according to get salem, the israeli human rights organization, at least seven palestinians have been killed by israeli settlers since the war in gaza. other 100 palestinians have been killed by israeli forces over the same period according to the united nations. what is happening right now in the west bank as you see it? >> first of all, thank you for having me on the show and thank you for reporting this during the fog of war and while the international community is focused on gaza and also these really public over the atrocities that hamas has committed on october 7th. the settlers, with a lot of aid from the israeli army, are exploiting that time, exploiting the fact that everything is eclipsed by the happenings in gaza. and the number of violent events that they are targeting small communities, mainly small remote hamlets of either bed winds or hurting communities in areas that are not densely populated like the jordan valley and south-mount head rug, and they do stuff that they had wanted to do for years and that is to cleanse these areas from palestinians. grab their lands, and they do it by corrosive measures, enormous violence that is repeated night after night until people are leaving their homes. the israeli human rights organization which i serve as their legal counsel, has documented more than [inaudible] violent events [inaudible] palestinians from october 7th. that is [inaudible] all the events that [inaudible] have been reported. a lot. [inaudible] but salem [inaudible] documented. [inaudible] absolutely horrifying. >> is this something that based on your experience and your career working on this and with other human rights organizations, is this something that is a new phenomenon or is it a continuation of a decades old policy that now seems to be accelerating because the world's attention, israel's attention, human rights organizations attention, is focused on gaza? >> it's absolutely continuation of a policy. celebrating the same crime that we've seen in the last at least two decades. by the, way every time there was an assault on gaza in recent years we had several of them, every time -- while the assault is going on in gaza, the settlers in the west bank are doing the same, but this, time and from the three decades that i have been following these issues very intensively and very intimately, i've never seen anything like that. this is now become the strategic issue with israeli forces. not always standing idly by, but even sometimes helping the settlers. this is the kind of testimonies we get from the ground. so this is all part of the big plan that is based on the jewish supremacy ideology. look, i'm an israeli, i'm jewish. and i'm pretty much ashamed to say that, but things -- the truth has to be told. this is not just a quarrel over territory, it is about a very racist ideology. and with a goal in mind of having official, legally supported, jewish supremacy, regime between the jordan river and the sea. >> let me ask, you do see it again -- your area of expertise in all of your years of working in this field, do you see what is happening in gaza and the west bank two different sides of the same coin of what you just described, you use the word cleansing of palestinians in the west bank, and you're talking about establishing jewish supremacy from the river to the sea, do you see this the same fight in different ways? >> look, it is one conflict. the israeli palestinian conflict has been with us for more than 100 years and this is all different fonts of the same conflict. there are people who see those two -- all the land as one category, all palestinians as one. i would be so hesitant to say that this is exactly the same because when it comes to gaza, there was an attack, a vicious attack for hundreds of israelis were butchered and more than 240 were kidnapped. children and women. so i think it is different there. the people in the west bank, unprovoked, are being attacked. they're being attacked by israeli civilians mainly. also by the army. but i think it's not the same, but it is all part of the same conflict. and the fact that we're not wise enough, generous enough to find a long-lasting solution that would provide for civil rights to be materialized for all the residents of this land between the jordan river and the sea, it creates all k different kinds of atrocities i can only hope that things will change after this war is over. >> michael, let me ask you really quickly. with this violence that's happening in the west bank, where do you see the situation heading right now? what does it tell us about what is on the horizon you think? does it tell >> i think, if wea grip of ourselves but the aid of friends from around the world to put pressure on the israeli government to do something about this phenomenon that is just on a horrifying scale, we will see thousands of palestinians already the people that have been displaced in the west bank, it reaches more than 1000. a third of them children. so these people have nowhere to go. they are the weakest of the weakest communities between the jordan river and the sea. they are mainly hurting communities and bed winds living in tents and light buildings. and if nothing stops the settlers, as i know how these things happen, if no one stops them, it will only escalate, the settlers, when they see that they can get away with these kinds of things, the extreme segments of the settler community, they will only escalate and they will find it -- for their crimes. >> michael savard, i appreciate you taking time to speak to us this evening. i appreciate it. >> thank you very much for having me. >> -- 72 hours away and all eyes will be on virginia. we will explain why, next. y, next. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. 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