Today were going to tell you about that, and if you cant win, change the rules. That is what republicans are doing to try and sway states in the 2024 election. Im ayman, lets get started. All right, mark your calendars. This week judge Tanya Chutkan set a date for trumps trial. We now know it will be monday march 4th, 2024. If that does sound familiar to you, thats probably because youre familiar with politics and it happens to be just one day before what is perhaps the most important day in any president ial primary season. Super tuesday. On march 5th, Republican Voters in over a dozen states are set to cast ballots for their 2024 pick. In total, youve got about one third of all delegates that will be up for grabs on super tuesday. Thats more than any other day on the primary calendar. Meaning the parties presumptive nominee could very well be decided right then and there, on that day. And since trumps lead over the republicans is growing, that means the disgraced ex president could officially become his partys pick, while his lawyers are in court, fighting for his freedom. Just think about that for a moment. Its quite the split screen image. And heres how the atlantics david graham summed up the impending uncharted political territory that we find ourselves in. Neither political scientists nor legal scholars have really nitpicked such a scenario. So no technical term exists to describe it. Right . A huge mess. I happen to agree with him. Chutkans decision has also put her case into direct conflict. We have three other trials that are looming over the ex president. In Fulton County, georgia District Attorney fani willis, who is investigating trumps efforts to overturn the election in her state, had previously proposed taking him to trial on march 4th as well. In manhattan, where trump has been accused of more than 30 felonies in an alleged hush money scheme, a trial has already been scheduled for march 25th. And then there is, of course, the other federal trial against the ex president. This one concerning his illegal retention of classified documents in maralago. So if trumps trial in washington lasts more than 11 weeks, it could clash with the late may date already on the books in florida. So the chaotic Courtroom Schedule has created a massive legal traffic jam. But the truth of the matter is, this is a disaster of trumps own making, and no one else. Following chutkans ruling, the ex president blasted the judge on his failed social media site, calling her a quote, Biased Trump Hating judge for setting a date that is quote, just what our corrupt government wanted. But remember, it was trumps own lawyers who proposed that ridiculous trial at the end of april, almost two years after the 2024 election. Look, i am no legal expert here. I dont pretend to be one. But if a person is truly innocent, wouldnt they want to clear their name long before it appears on a ballot . Instead, trumps usual Delay Tactics here have backfired, spectacularly. Ushering in a political mess in locking the Collision Course between his legal calendar and his 2024 primary campaign calendar. Here to break all of this down, cynthia aksne, a former federal prosecutor and an msnbc analyst. Carlos curbelo an msnbc political analyst, and hayes brown, writer and editor for msnbc daily. Theyre all friends of the program, great to have all three of you back. Cynthia, just out of the gate, i think a lot of people, certainly what the president suggested, after chutkans ruling, he vowed to challenge that march 4th date, that start date. Our Trial Calendars even subject to appeal . No. They arent. And it was ridiculous. He shouldve checked with his lawyer. And you notice his lawyer threatening a lot of motions that hes going to file. Not one of them includes the motion to appeal the trial date. Hes talking about he wants to have motions on selected prosecution, he wants to bring up hunter biden, he wants to talk about immunity, he wants to dismiss conspiracy accounts, and even his own lawyer is not saying hes going to try to appeal the trial date. So, no, he cannot. He can ask to have her reconsider, and perhaps apologize for his behavior, which was abominable and embarrassing, and ask her to reconsider. One of the things that happened in the court was she said give me another date. Were not going to give you april two years from now. Give me a date. And he refused to do it. And he refused in such a rude way, she had to say to them, take the temperature down. Let me just tell you what. When a federal judge has to tell you several times to take the temperature down and treat you like the small child on the first day of kindergarten, you have a big problem. A credibility problem. You have a problem in the courtroom that will hurt your client down the line. And he did not help trump in any way with his behavior. But the short is no, he could not appeal the trial date and unless theres some unforeseen circumstance, he is going to go to trial march 4th, or certainly within the month of march. I was going to say, looks like trumps lawyer and trumps team have basically been getting what they paid for, and that is not much. Congressman, trump has called the scheduling Election Interference, but in regards to the ruling, judge chutkan said plainly, i take seriously the defenses request that mr. Trump be treated like any other dependant that appears before this court, and i intend to do so. Trumps the first to call foul, kind of expected. He says hes being subjected to a double standard. Is he really asking for Special Treatment here, when asking for his trial to be delayed beyond what would be a normal thing two years is beyond normal, its crazy. But if he was asking for some reasonable delay, the judge wouldve taken into account his campaign calendar, wouldnt that also be playing politics . Wouldnt that be giving him a favor by saying im taking into consideration that you are running for president , so im going to accommodate your political calendar . Two things could be true. Number one, donald trump should be treated fairly. He should be afforded the opportunity to defend himself, just like anyone else would. But its also true that just because youre running for public office, thats not an excuse to not face justice. To get Special Treatment. We cannot afford in this country to allow running for office to be part of a legal strategy. The two things are separate. He has every right to run for president for the time being, but he also has to face a justice system, and not receive any Special Treatment, just like any other american. Yeah, so, hayes, its interesting. That point of being treated equally, lets remind our viewers here. The federal government wanted a january start date, and that is very well before super tuesday. It was trumps team that wanted the delay. Again, proposing a ridiculous two year after the election start. So did this kind of backfire on them by demanding this delay, but the judge and it happened to be march 4th. I think that judge chutkan was really trying to accommodate both sides here. Because in my opinion, a reasonable requests given how much of the information that they have is public information, or is already known to donald trump. Because hes the one who was involved in these schemes. I thought that the january request date was reasonable. The 2026 date clearly was not. So i think that judge chutkan was trying to make sure that reasonable accommodation couldve been made. I think that playing politics is trying to set a trial date for your candidate, when ideally should he win, he will be president again. That was the overarching reasoning behind why they filed to try to move the trial date to 2026. Its completely obvious. We dont have to be a great political mastermind to look at the calendar and see thats what they were trying to do. To the point that its Election Interference to say donald trump has to be in court for these dates, i can think of no candidate in modern history who needs to be on the Campaign Trail less than donald trump. Everyone knows who he is, everyone knows his positions, everyone has seen him in his office before as president. His base is with him still, aside from maybe fundraisers, i dont see why he would need to be out of the courtroom and on the Campaign Trail, compared to most other candidates who can make the same claim. To your point, he skipped the first debate. So clearly hes already saying to the judge, some of these normal events that a candidate would normally show up and participate in, hes just like im not going to attend it. Im going to skip it. But there is an interesting thing here that i want to ask you about, which is jack smith, whos prosecuting both of the federal government cases in florida and in washington. For the florida case, that trial date is in may because they know the discovery and the documents, the classified material, the motions, they anticipated that. But now youve got one of trumps lawyers, john lauro, telling the judge that he were to abide by the ruling that said that the date means he wouldnt be able to provide, quote, adequate representation. Give me the reaction to that. The lawyer productively saying itll be ineffective, even before a trial has begun, is not exactly what i would say a bang for your buck, if i was donald trump. Its just a hollow threat. Its just a talking point, its just an excuse to try to get the trial date move. I have two things to say about that. There is no reason to be concerned that the trial date is a problem, because the may trial date is never going to happen. That judge in florida is not going to trial in may. On the ineffective assistance of counsel, let me tell you this. Theres all kind of legal standards for what really is ineffective assistance of counsel. And thats what lauro was saying. I cant be affected if i havent spent more time to go over this. When you look at the standard for ineffective assistance of counsel, its pretty low. I mean, low. Like, theres fancy words for its about you have to have a deficient council cant have done a decent job, it has to be deficient. But it also has to be that there would be a different outcome. And when you read these accounts, your lawyer can be drunk in the courtroom and can be an effective council, according to the standard. As long as theyre outcome wouldnt have been changed. Like, you did commit the murder and there werent any other witnesses. And im sorry your lawyer was drunk. That happens in the law. So, its an ineffective assistance of counsel is a hollow a threat, and its kind of just a tv soundbyte threat. Its not a real threat. Especially for a guy whos got a big law firm, he has billions of dollars at his disposal, hes falling all these motions, he is going on tv, he is going to be cross examining these witnesses, hes going to be sober, its going to be fine. Nobody has to worry that in any way shape or form donald trump is going to get off on a case on ineffective assistance of counsel. It just isnt happening. Lets talk politics for a moment. Trump only grows his lead over the gop field with every indictment. If you are a gop candidate, and trumps he is now indicted, but his trial starts during the campaign season. What do you do . How do you campaign against him . Because if you campaign and attack him, it seems like it helps him. But at the same time if you ignore him, which is obviously whats happening now, youre not exactly a profile encouraged as a republican candidate. Well, ayman, the point you made earlier that this is just a massive mess, is the point that a lot of these other gop hopefuls have been trying to make to republican primary voters. Especially in these key early states. Telling them, donald trump is going to be important. Donald trump is going to be defending himself from any criminal charges. He is not a good candidate for a party, ayman, but that message isnt breaking through. As you said, trumps support keeps growing and a lot of these other candidates are really having trouble gaining traction. Now, i will tell you, i think a lot of them wasted a lot of time. They have tried to defeat donald trump from within the shadow of Donald Trumps lie. They have not wanted to confront donald trump. I still believe, even if its difficult, the only chance you have at defeating donald trump is to be honest with the voters, explain to them what donald trump did, why it was wrong, and why you would be a better candidate. If you just try to follow trump, if you just try to imitate trump, i really think its impossible to defeat him. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Former congressman carlos curbelo, hayes brown, i thank you to the both of you for starting us off. Cynthia, please stick around. Coming up, the democratic lawmaker leading a lawsuit against donald trump and his allies for their roles in the january 6th attack. Congresswoman barbara lee joins me live, after this break. Buknow what is . Myplan from verizon. vo Football Season is here. Get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy z flip5. Only on verizon. Looking for a smarter way to mop . Introducing the new swiffer powermop. An allinone Cleaning Tool that gives you a mop and bucket clean in half the time. Our new cleaning pad has hundreds of Scrubbing Strips that absorb and lock dirt away, and it has a 360degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just cant. So, you can clean your home faster than ever. Dont mop harder, mop smarter, with the new swiffer powermop. josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan i have to watch my neighbors nfl sunday ticket. Dont mop harder, mop smarter, josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. vo Football Season is here. Get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy z flip5. As donald trump prepares for only on verizon. Six scheduled criminal and civil trials over just the next nine months, my next guest, democratic congresswoman barbara lee is leading a group of democratic lawmakers in a long running civil lawsuit against trump and his allies, including Rudy Giuliani, for inciting the violent january 6th insurrection. And just like the Election Interference cases in both d. C. And georgia, the suit accuses trump of conspiring against the federal government. When the lawsuit was first filed in 2021, trumps team responded with a statement saying, President Trump does not incite or conspired to incite any violence in the capitol on january 6th. Congresswoman barbara lee joins me now. Congresswoman, its great to have you back on the show. Lets talk about this lawsuit which was originally brought by the naacp on behalf of congressman benny thompson. It was followed long before these indictments and scheduled trials that weve seen play out over the last couple of months. It was even before the January 6th Committee was formed last year. When you joined this lawsuit, did you expect its sheer volume of legal trouble that trump would be in today . Thank you, ayman. Nice meeting with you. Yes, i did. And actually, chairman bennie thompson, due to a perceived Conflict Of Interest when he was appointed chair of the January 6th Committee, left the lawsuit and i was appointed as the lead plaintiff. And in february, of course, we filed this lawsuit. And we will, and the complaints say, that there should be accountability for the perpetrators and those who instigated and those who threatened the peaceful transfer of power. Also in this lawsuit, were seeking justice for those who were harmed as a result of this unfortunate, terrible, really almost a coup. And it was really thwarting the peaceful transfer of power, which is why were moving forward with this in terms of seeking justice. Its extremely important that this never happens again, so were investing in efforts to protect our democracy in the future. Because this january 6th was a threat to our democracy, it was an attempted coup, and in fact, we must hold those accountable for instigating this threat on our democracy. There is one passage from the suit that i want to bring up for a moment. It alleges that trump and his allies were in violation of the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871, which says defendants may not conspire to prevent by force, intimidation, or threat, any Person Holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the u. S. From discharging their dues. Explain this to our viewers, why this is in violation of that law. Sure. This law in 1871 was put forth and passed during reconstruction. And basically it was to combat Violent Attacks on the Voting Rights of black americans. And attacks on black elected officials, from taking office and discharging their official duties. Here we are in 2023, and we know that well who donald trump is, and these perpetrators, who they are. This is a very appropriate citation in our complaint, and were moving forward. Finally, let me just say that donald trump tried to appeal this. Hes still trying to say he was immune. But the lower court said that hes not immune from these charges, and theyre moving forward now, waiting for the Appeals Court to make this decision. To the latest developments in the georgia indictment and jack smiths Election Interference case help bolster your lawsuit . Does it have any impact at all on your lawsuit . No, ayman. This is a civil lawsuit. The georgia case is a criminal lawsuit. Of course, personally ive always said that there was a Criminal Enterprise Being Run Out of the white house. But the lawsuit that we have filed with our ten plaintiffs is a civil lawsuit, laying for the complaints that i just stated. I do want to switch gears real quick and get your thoughts on President Biden unveiling ten Prescription Drugs Medicare will target for price negotiations. This is a move decades in the making. How big of a win is this . I dont think ordinary americans, unless theyre familiar with medicare, are going to understand why this is so significant. This is a big win, and let me just say, i have to applied the Biden Harris Administration for continued to fight for this. This was included in the inflation reduction act. Let me cite a couple of medications. Diabetes is off the scale in our country. There are 869,000 people who are taking a medication called januvia. That costs about 40 700 a year. There we 38,000 recipients of a medication for Rheumatoid Arthritis called embril that is costing 58,000 a year. And so this is a big deal. The list of these medications negotiate the prices. And im so pleased that they took on big pharma on this. Because these are huge profits that big pharma has made. Now we will be saving lives. Medicare recipients now will be able to benefit from the reduced costs of their medication, as a result of being able to negotiate. The government being able to negotiate for these ten medications. Thats a big deal, its going to save lives and livelihoods. Congresswoman barbara lee, its always a pleasure. Thank you for making time for us tonight. Nice being with you, and thank you. Coming up, four proud boys and a 60year Prison Sentence between them. What happens when a fifth member is sentenced next week. Get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy z flip5. Only on verizon. Since my citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn me more cash back in my top eligible category. Suddenly lifes feeling a little more automatic. Like doors opening wherever i go. [sound of airplane overhead] even the ground is moving for me yall seeing this . Wild and i dont even have to activate anything. Oooooohhh. Automatic sashimi earn cash back that automatically adjusts to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. [mind blown explosion noise] tourists tourists that turn into scientists. Tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. That can be analyzed by ai in real time. So researchers can identify which areas are at risk. 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Sleep more deeply and wake up rejuvenated. Purple mattresses exclusive Gel Flex Grid draws away heat relieves pressure and instantly adapts. Sleep better. Live purple. Right now save up to 900 off mattress sets during purples labor day sale. Visit purple. Com or a store near you. Were done. What about these . Looks right. This week, four members of the nooo. Nooo. Quick, the quicker picker upper bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. And is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. Bounty, the quicker picker upper. Proud boys received long Prison Sentences after being convicted on a host of charges related to january 6th. On thursday, joe biggs who prosecutors call an instigator and leader, was slapped with 17 years in federal prison for Seditious Conspiracy. Zachary rehl, another member convicted of the same crime, he was sentenced to 15 years. On friday, dominic pezzola, infamous for smashing a Capital Building window with a stolen police riot shield, he was sentenced to a decade behind bars. Then there was ethan nordean, prosecutors say he quote, for the purpose of taking the fight to the people that he viewed as the traders who were stealing the election. Nordean tied the record for the longest january 6th sentence with a whopping 18 years for Seditious Conspiracy. But he may not hold that dishonor for long. Enrique tarrio, the former National Chairman of the proud boys, convicted for Seditious Conspiracy, set to be sentenced for his role in the Capitol Attack on tuesday. Joining me now is Rich Benjamin cultural anthropologist and author of searching for whitopia, an improbable journey to the heart of white america. Also with us, cynthia alksne, still part of the conversation. Cynthia, lets talk about the sentencing. Members of the proud boys were still sobbing, expressing remorse. He said hed give up politics and pleaded for leniency. Then shouted, trump won after receiving his sentence. Your reaction to this . Well, he also said all he really wanted to do is be a member of his daughters ptpa. And speaking as a former pta president , i would say that none of us really want him. Heres the thing. Defendants are always sorry when it comes to their sentencing. He doesnt sound very sorry to me as he screamed trump won when he went off. I would guess that he gets a similar if not more serious as the former chairman of the proud boys. And, theres all this talk, well, he wasnt actually at the capitol. If you have a bank robbery and one guy runs it and three guys do it, the guy who runs it is just as guilty as the guys who do it, if not more, because he was running. It so i would expect a very serious sentence, one that he deserves. Rich, do you think the january six convictions and these types of sentences that we are seeing, are either going to have a Chilling Effect on the farright Extremist Movement in the United States and these types of organizations . We havent seeing large protests outside the Fulton County courthouse when trump was arrested, they havent materialized at other times when we were expecting large gatherings. Or do you think this is going to drive them underground . Theyll still be there, those to be organized, but much harder to track . Way less visible than they were two or three years ago . I think, ayman, i think on the one hand these sentences will be a deterrent for these people who are attacking federal buildings and federal property. Thats one element. But as far as attacking actual citizens, as far as going underground, as far as committing these mass hate crimes, i think that wont necessarily have a deterrent. And as the fbi already told us, since 2020, hate crimes against individuals and against social institutions like synagogues, like black churches, and supermarkets, are on the rise. So i think it will work and kind of setting a good, important deterrence in attacking federal buildings and federal property. Like you say, it will drive it underground in terms of us every day people. And where we worship, where we go to school, and where we are in our neighbourhoods. Putting that perspective for us, how rare is it for folks in this country to be charged and convicted of Seditious Conspiracy . I mean, i think this is a term that i would argue most average americans did not know before january the 6th. And i remember even when we start hearing of it as a charge, it was a rarely used charge in this country, and now we are getting some major convictions for it. What is it and what does this mean . Yes, its extremely rare. But lets keep in mind, the person whos in charge of this Seditious Conspiracy is trump, and hes still off going to Cocktail Parties and raising money, and the people who have the connection between trump and these proud boys, roger stone, hes faced nothing. I mean, they encouraged him. Nothing. The people in the war room, nothing. So whats infuriating about it for me is that these people were encouraged to do this terrible crime. These series of terrible crimes on january 6th, and those who inspired them, those who encouraged him, those who them up and sent them off all revved up are still cruising around the country, having a good time running for president. Thats whats infuriating about it. But you are correct. The Seditious Conspiracy charge that trump does not face is extremely rare, and its almost never used. But it was an appropriate charge here, and im glad they did it. Thats an important charge you bring up. If this was a conspiracy, someone must have organized it and incited it. And those people still remain free. Rich, this week there was an interesting development. We learned that the number two official in New Hampshire on Donald Trumps president ial campaign told police to, quote, hang themselves in an expletive ridden video that was shot close to the u. S. Capitol back on january the 6th. People may have forgotten this, but you had four officers who responded to the riot leader, dying by suicide. I think people may have forgotten, people try to downplay just how violent, how Traumatizing January 6th was. For americans, this is a party that claimed to defend the blue until the blue stood in their way and did not let them take over our government. Absolutely. And they got the Seditious Conspiracy in the legal sense, but its satisfying to me that in the common sense, as you said, they wanted to inspire terror. They wanted to make a spectacle. They wanted to undercut the functioning of society. Thats our common sense definition of terrorism. Its to have a violent spectacle that undercuts what were doing. And i also want to underline what cynthia said. I wouldnt be surprised if theres a secret element of glee at the top of the gop. Because with these convictions and these sentencings, you can kind of scapegoat these guys and put it aside, and pretend the problem has been solved, that theyre the only problem, and its therefore solved, and the kind of shot your culpability in this mess, in inciting the riot. And then stoking people and then trying to cover it up. So i theyre going to be made as though their only part of all of this mess when the highest levels of the party, as she said, are running around and having a big time. So the problem has not been solved by any means by their sentencing. Cynthia, we have about a minute left. Legally speaking, do these convictions bode badly for donald trump, as he faces the charges or his allegations in jack smiths january six investigation . Yes, they do. Because these are jurors in d. C. These are people who have experienced the capitol riot, these are people who are locked down, these are people who know these police officers, who were beaten severely. Theyve seen that on their local Television Stations in addition to the National Television statements. They counted on these people to protect them over the years, and this is whats happened. And this is the jury pool going into this. He knows whos accountable. And thats why donald trump doesnt want to go to trial in d. C. Because he knows this jury pool is effective, and its a problem for them because of this local jury. Its the jury who experienced the riot, along with these police officers. If im not mistaken, i believe his lawyer wanted to move it to West Virginia, because it was more diverse in West Virginia than it is in washington d. C. Which sounded a little bit racist, but well leave that for another separate conversation in what he was implying there. Great to have both of you, greatly appreciate your time and your insight. Rich benjamin and cynthia alksne, thank you so much. When we come back, we said at the top of the hour, if you cant win, change the rules. Thats what some republicans are trying to do to get their way. Well tell you about that, next. To 50 years with my best friend. Aya. Quick, the quicker picker upper bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. And is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. Bounty, the quicker picker upper. Wake up, achievers. Youre making the most of every hour of your life. And is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. Except the hours that youre sleeping. So why do we leave so much Untapped Potential on the table . 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Sometimes the democrats won, sometimes the republicans won, they both agreed and accepted the rules. But now it seems that republicans are not content with playing by those rules, and theyre taking matters into their own hands to basically create new rules. And we want to kind of go over some of these recent examples for you. According to politico, the trump team has been working to change delegate Selection Rules for the primary, in ways that would benefit the ex president. At least one state party has run with this idea, the california gop just adopted a new rule to award all roles candidate who secures more than half the statewide vote. At the state level, conservatives are removing elected progressive prosecutors from their positions. We already talked about ron desantis suspending two prosecutors in the course of this year, but that effort has now spread to other states, including texas. Thats not just limited to District Attorneys, North Carolina republicans are trying to remove a Democratic Supreme Court justice. Only happens to be a black justice, just for saying racial bias exists in the courtroom. Theyre arguing her remarks violated the states code of judicial conduct. In this week, associate Justice Anita earles filed a federal lawsuit against the standards commission, and then there is of course ohio, where the gopcontrolled legislator called for a special election that would make it harder to pass constitutional amendments. And this of course was just months before a vote to in tried Abortion Rights into the states constitution. Voters luckily overwhelmingly rejected that proposal, but republicans are still trying to get the upper hand. The Ohio Ballot Board just adopted language for the abortion amendment, developed by the republican secretary of state, the very same person who spearheaded the effort to make it more difficult to pass this amendment in the first place. In the new text it leaves out fertility treatment, and miscarriage care. And it has been criticized for being incomplete and inaccurate. Joining me now is ruth benghiat, author of strongmen, mussolini to the president. Ruth, great to see you again. Welcome back to the show. If its not donald trump is calling for these changes, it has now spread within the republican party. Your reaction to this new playbook, bending the system to their will at all levels of the government . Yeah, thats the thats one definition of what authoritarians do. The law becomes something that you personalize, you bend it as you say, to serve you, and if you encounter people who oppose you in that, you find a way to get rid of them. And this is the weaponization of the law. And this happens all the time in not only with regard to politicians or prosecutors, for example, in putins russia, anybody who has a business that the state wants to plunder or who is somehow getting in the way of kleptocracy, they find some sort of trumped up thing youve done wrong in the tax code. They use the law to harass you, and they use the law to remove people. Also, politicians who still have elections like erdogan in turkey, if theres somebody whos a very strong contender, you want to get rid of them, you slap a Jail Sentence or the threat of one on them. You ivent some kind of infraction. So you use the law in ways that benefit you. And theyre going now after prosecutors, which in and of itself is very dangerous. Youve got more than two dozen bills that are limiting prosecutorss power to have been introduced in republican controlled states. What do you make of these sorts of bills being introduced on the local level, across so many states in predominantly or if not outright republican areas . This is part of the shift of the gop, into a radicalization. And this is a party that is not just doing damage control, its a party in a panic. And so, its got to do all of these things in order to keep itself afloat. Because when you become an authoritarian party, and you depends on corruption, you depend on lying, which is the big lie and election denial, and you depend on the threat of violence or actual intimidation or violent acts, you are a de facto depending on crime. And so going after prosecutors, removing people who are not going to do your bidding, is what you have to do to survive. How do republican attempts, ruth, since we have you, compared to other examples across history . What were seeing now, some would argue is a precursor to a worse situation, if donald trump does return to the white house. Because you will have this convergence on authoritarianism coming from both a local level on the states, and even sub state level, to the president , who probably in his own right will come after political opponents, as you recently saw in an interview, and change the democratic rules of the game going forward. Unfortunately, this is how originally italian fascism started. It started as a decentralized Militia Movement that then took over councils, took over local government, and they did these tricks wherever they were. And then when mussolini became a Prime Minister of democracy, he actually changed the electoral laws so that the fascist party, which had an infinitesimal following, nobody wanted to go for them, they just got power by violence, so they had to use trickery to get a majority in parliament. So these are very old things, but if we fast forward to berlusconni who is a good example, because he was Prime Minister in a democracy, he would do things like he is extremely corrupt, and he had 20 indictments by the time he was forced out of office. So early on he was accused of bribery, and he is going to have a corruption trial for bribery. And so he got parliaments to change the way that bribery was considered as a crime, so that you could no longer go to jail. So you back to personalizing the law, and it happens at local level, and it happens at the national level. Im more familiar with the middle east. I can see that happening again more and more with president in egypt changing the term limits when he became president , changing the constitution. You see it with israel with netanyahu, you see it in turkey with erdogan all trying to change the ways in some way to protect them and shield them and keep them in power. There perhaps is a little bit of a Silver Lining here, at least in the u. S. , we are seeing some of these attempts to rewrite the rules, at the ballot box, at least, failed, as i mentioned in the setup. We had the ohio special election, but in the long run, is that sustainable, because it seems like republicans just keep chipping away at it, if they dont succeed the first time, they just kind of go back, tweak it, put more pressure and try to do it again, perhaps in a different way or different language. Im curious to get your thoughts on how durable the voting at the ballot box can be at rejecting these authoritarian measures . Well, these people are very tenacious. They use a combination of relentless, if it doesnt work, they try it again. And also psychological warfare, weve been assaulted by Information Warfare designed to make us feel that its useless to resist. Its exhausting to have to deal with these things. But im very cheered by what is going on, that this has been a kind of laboratory of democratic action for many americans, at the local level as well as the state and national. And although people are seeing how tiring it is, there is a will, as you see in ohio, and other places, to not let these people get away with it. Because they think americans are very sensitized of what the stakes are now, in a way that perhaps they werent before. Ruth benghiat, we are going to continue to have these conversations so long as the republicans keep doing what theyve been doing in this country. Its always a pleasure, great to have you on. Thanks for making time for us. Next, justice for two Georgia Election workers whose lives were thrown into chaos due to Rudy Giuliani spreading the big lie. Lie. Introducing the new swiffer powermop. An allinone Cleaning Tool that gives you a mop and bucket clean in half the time. 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That campaign of harassment to notably led by former New York City mayor and trump lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, centered around a Conspiracy Theory that freeman and moss somehow illegally transported suitcases full of fake ballots to an atlanta area vote counting center. It lies at the center of some of the criminal charges that had been brought against giuliani and the other codefendants in Fulton County, fani williss racketeering case. But long before these charges, freeman and moss took matters into their own hands by suing the former mayor in Federal Court for civil conspiracy, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and defamation. On wednesday, almost two years after their reputations were dragged through the mud in service of a desperate ex president , freeman and moss finally witnessed some accountability. When u. S. District judge, beryl howell, found the former mayor liable for Defaming Freeman and moss in a scathing 57page ruling, judge how said giuliani had failed to comply with Discovery Obligations forcing her to issue what is called a Default Judgment against him. Judge how accused giuliani of, quote, Donning A Cloak of victimization and undermining the Discovery Process in what should have been, by any measure, a, quote, straightforward case. Howell blasted giuliani for only giving, quote, lip service to compliance with her obligations and court orders. She then ordered him to play freeman and moss punitive damages. Were going to learn just how much giuliani will have to pay up in the next few months. Howell has set a travel to determine that amount, scheduled for later this year. Or perhaps even early next year. That number could be as high as several million dollars. Thats not welcome news, though, for a believing trump defended with ongoing financial scandals. Giuliani already owes around 90,000 in Sanctions To Freeman and moss, which is in addition to more than 40,000 in legal fees. He also owes more than 300,000 to a document hosting company, his finances will no doubt continue to suffer as he battles that new Indictment Info in Fulton County. It appears giuliani is already hurting financially, because last month, he put his three bedroom multimilliondollar manhattan apartment on the market. So, it seems the former mayor may have finally learned his lesson. Tell the truth, because it lies can cost you everything. Stick around for more ayman at the top of the hour we have the very latest on the Georgia Election case. Giuliani is among the codefendants who pleaded not guilty to charges this week. For adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, longacting Hiv Treatment you can get every other month. Cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. 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