Results of the 2020 president ial election. Unlike his three previous indictments, this, time the former president will have to make a trip to jail, or he will be booked ahead of his arraignment, which is scheduled for the week of september 5th. Trump is now facing a total of 91 criminal charges in four separate cases across different jurisdictions. Yet, for criminal indictments and the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison, has not humble the former president in the least. He remains unrepentant and unapologetic for his actions, and, if anything, hes grown more defiant. Nearly three years later, he still denies the result of the 2020 president ial election, even though he hasnt offered up a shred of proof of the sort that has been able to withstand the slightest scrutiny. On top of that, he continues to attack anyone remotely connected to the cases against him, except the one judge that he appointed who will oversee the maralago documents case. Despite receiving multiple warnings from judges to refrain from doing so. His relentless Smear Campaign is creating a tense atmosphere as criminal prosecutions and the 2024 president ial race get underway. Recently, a woman was arrested in charge for making a Death Threats against tanya chutkan, the judge assigned to the federal election interference case. And in Fulton County, local authorities are investigating threats that have been made online, against the grand jurors who recently voted to indict donald trump and 18 others. Now, these are alarming developments that are frankly reminiscent of some of the warning signs that led up to the january 6th insurrection. Despite this, however, donald trump remains the front runner in the 2024 republican president ial nomination by a country mile. Acting like this is of no consequence, bragging, even, this Polling Numbers increase with each new indictment. But two sentences in this. The United States constitution, suggest otherwise. As it relates to his bid to return to the white house. Section three of the 14th Amendment is also known as the Disqualification Clause. It states quote, no person shall be a senator or representative of congress or electoral of Vice President or president , or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States or any state, who having previously taken an oath as a member of congress or as an officer of the United States or as a member of any state legislature, or, as an executive or traditional officer of any state to support the constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same. Or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But congress may, by a vote of two thirds of each, house remove such disability. Ends a quote. Some constitutional scholars have been arguing for years now that this means that trumps actions on or around january six disqualify him from Holding Public office ever again. And that argument is receiving renewed attention, after william bought and Michael Stokes paulson, to prominent conservative Law Professors and members of the federalist society, announced that they have written a paper about the Disqualification Clause and have come to the same conclusion. That donald trump is ineligible to hold office. Now, their conclusion is receiving an important boost of support in a brand new article. It was just published within the last few hours this morning in the atlantic, titled, quote, The Constitution Prohibits Trump from ever being president again, end quote. It is written by the esteemed conservative former federal judge, Jay Michael Luttig, and the harvard legal scholar, lawrence tribe. The article voices support for bought and polsons paper, and makes its own argument for by trump should be disqualified from the race, quote, if donald trump were to be reelected, how could any Citizen Trust that he would uphold the oath of office that he would take upon his inauguration . As recently as last december, the former president posted on truth social his persistent view that the last president ial election was a quote, massive fraud, and quote. One that quote, allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the constitution, end quote. Youve been those found in the constitution. No person who sought to overthrow our constitution, and thereafter declared that it should be terminated, and that he should be immediately return to the presidency cant in good faith take the oath that article two, section one demands of any president elect before he enter on the execution of his office, end quote. What are remarkably important article that implore you all to read in its entirety, as soon as this interview was over. Because joining me now are the authors of that article, judge Jay Michael Luttig is a former federal judge on the United States court of appeals for the fourth circuit. Lawrence tribe is a Professor Emeritus at Harvard Law School, who taught Constitutional Law at harvard for roughly five decades. He is the author of the influential treatise on american Constitutional Law. Gentlemen, we are so honored to have you here this morning. Thank you for writing what youve written, because through all the indictments, the january six indictment and the georgia indictment, this is the question that mostly people without a Legal Education ask me. Is there anything in here that stop donald trump, who is shooting to the top of the polls, literally every time hes indicted, from becoming the president of the United States again . So i put it to you, judge luttig. You have studied. This you have thought about this a lot. You are the man who with whom mike pences lawyer consulted before january six to make that determination he was not in a position to overturn the constitution and count the wrong electoral votes. How have you come to this conclusion . Thank you, ali, for having Professor Tribe and i on this morning. Professor tribe is the most celebrated constitutional mind in america. And he has been that for the past four decades, at least. Professor tribe has been studying the constitution and even Disqualification Clause literally, his entire illustrious career. I, first, came to think seriously about the Disqualification Clause only in january of 2021, after that fateful day of january six. But at that time, i came to the same conclusion that Professor Tribe had come too many years before. And Professor Tribe and i have been discussing this profound question between us privately for over the past two years. In some ways, one of the most notable things that we say in the atlantic article this morning, is george washington, americas very first precedent, Questionably Foresaw and anticipated this moment in american history. Almost 250 years ago in his farewell address. Turning to the merits of explained in this article. Constitutional analysis, as you well know, does not lend itself to soundbites. In this case, though, it does. When coupled with the reading of this article that weve done this morning. And that soundbite is literally the constitution. Amendment 14, Section Three, four bids the precedent from holding the office of the presidency again, because of his conduct in and around january six, 2021. And specifically, in his conduct that either constituted an insurrection against the constitution of the United States, or a rebellion against the constitution of the United States. Or aid and comfort to the insurrection, or rebellion, that occurred on that fateful day. Under the Disqualification Clause, literal terms, but plain meaning, and now we know through the magnificent research of professors bought and carlson, the original meeting of Section Three disqualifies the former president from ever holding the presidency again, ali. And its not a complicated read. For those americans who have not, i am a naturalized american, so when you become a citizen, you get a copy of this and you cant take your phone into the court. So ive read it several times as i became a citizen. Its 30 pages long. Everyone to just read this. Professor tribe, in the article, you wrote the former president s efforts to overturn the 2020 president ial election and the resulting attack on the u. S. Capitol place him squarely within the ambit of this Disqualification Clause, and he is very for ineligible to serve for president ever again. The most pressing constitutional question facing our country at the moment, then, is whether we will abide by this clear command of the 14th Amendments Disqualification Clause. End quote. Tell me how this works . Because you to our constitutional experts. Im not. But we come to the same conclusion. There are a whole lot of people outside in america who are not coming to this conclusion. So, whos the one of the authority to say that donald trump or anyone who comes up against this clause is ineligible to run for office under the Disqualification Clause . In other words, who enforces this . First of all, ali, thank you very much for having me on this morning. Its an honor. To share the stage with my friend and perhaps the most distinguished judge in america, though he does not, at the moment, serve on the Supreme Court. Were a long go, i thought he ought to serve. Its an honor to be here, discussing this extraordinarily vital question. Now, you put your finger on it. The constitution says a lot of things. But it takes people to honor it and to enforce it. Now, some people have made the mistake of thinking that the many charges against the current precedent represent the forum in which all of this will be decided. The 91 pending criminal charges in four separate indictments. But in fact, although those criminal prosecutions are terribly important, and its vital that the president be held accountable and not get away scotfree, the Disqualification Clause operates all by itself. All of those prosecutions, important us that our, are beside the point when it comes to this clause. This clause says that no one who did what Donald J Trump obviously did, and he doesnt really deny it. He plays games with what we call it, but he doesnt deny it. In fact, he proclaims probably that he thinks the electoral count should have been stopped. He still blames Vice President pence for not overturning the election. Constitution itself says that he cant be president. Now, who in force of that . In the first instance, it is the officials who decide whether his name could be put in nomination, can he run as an official candidate . In michigan, wisconsin, the better, georgia, any other state . Usually, is the Secretary Of State who must make that call. Just as he or she must decide if the president is a natural born citizen, follow trump said nobody should allow barack obama to run for president because he was disqualified. Trump didnt suggest we need a lawsuit to settle that. Of course, he was wrong, and therefore secretaries of state did let barack obama run. But would any Secretary Of State decide either to put Donald Trumps name on the ballot for president of the United States in 2024 . Or to keep his name off the ballot . Anyone standing to challenge that decision, either, way anyone who is harmed by, if a competitor, a voter, will presumably take the Secretary Of State to court and say you did it wrong. This clause of the constitution doesnt mean what it says. Or, it was repealed by the amnesty act of 1872. Theres all kinds of strange arguments people have made. In order to make that costco away. Or, they will say you should have enforced it. You shouldnt have passed the book. Whichever way a Secretary Of State goes, that case will go to court. And because the issue is so momentous, it will end up in the Supreme Court of the United States. Now, that court, even though it has length in favor of donald trump on a number of occasions, has sometimes done its duty. In all of the cases that reached the court in 2020, the claim that the election was a big lie and that states should be allowed to do with the coconspirators most recently charged in georgia said that should be done, those people were ultimately turned back by the Supreme Court. I apologize for that fire alarm in the background, but i hope it will not hurt anyones eardrums. If it gets louder, professor, let us know. Well let you go and get your but for now, we hope everything is okay. It will turn off. It happened once before. It will turn itself off, but i think is running the alarm bell for all of us, because this is a crucial moment for america. It is, in fact, the metaphor. Judge, in this very closet you talk about, the Disqualification Clause, the last sentence as, but congress made by a foot by two thirds of each house remove such a ability. Lawrence really about and William Stokes paulson wrote, quote, Section Three is self executing. Operating as an immediate disqualification from Office Without that need for additional action by congress. The closet self says that congress only role in this clause is to remove it if they think its not true. That means its not necessary for congress to act to disqualify donald trump as a president ial candidate. Is that how you read it . It is, ali. That specific finding is perhaps the single most important conclusion that was drawn by the professors from their scholarship. Namely, that as Professor Tribe said, the clause is automatic. It is self executing. Which means that as Professor Tribe just explain, and he won state or federal, whos charged with listing the candidates for the presidency, its obligated under the constitution to make the decision himself or herself, as to whether donald trump is qualified to be put on the ballot under the constitution of the United States. The as to the rule for congress, frankly, until the scholarship by two professors, i was not aware of the self executing feature of Section Three. Im sure Professor Tribe was. Hes written the fault and written about the disqualification cause his whole life. But this is a momentous, significance itself. Because Neither Congress nor congress through impeachment, nor a judicial order, nor the results of a criminal conviction, or needed. As of this moment, under the professors reading of Section Three, and of my reading and Professor Tribes, the former president is disqualified from holding the office of the presidency in 2024. Professor tribe, you know, on january 7th, i remember having a debate with people about whether this was a coup or an insurrection or whatever the case is. Interestingly enough, none of the charges, none of the indictments, discuss insurrection. Its something the january Six Committee wanted done, but it didnt get done. Given that this clause depends on insurrection, does that have to be proved by a court or do we believe our eyes and the video and the statements of a truth social posts . How is that litigated . How do we make the determination that donald trump violated this section of the constitution by implementing an insurrection . The answer is that whoever is responsible in the first instance for applying those words must use his or her own ice and common sense and, the statements made by the president himself, when he was president , and everything we know, when you actually strip away all of the rhetoric and all of the slogans of those who say the president at that time should not be held responsible, they dont deny the facts. They dont deny the fact that he encouraged those people to storm the capital when his plots that we now know about in detail you have fake electors and two pressure the Vice President when all of that failed, the facts are really undisputed. The president s responsibility is there for all to see. A lot of people have become obsessed with criminal trials. Its all over television. They are presumed innocent until youre proven guilty. Yes, hes presumed innocent before we can decide otherwise in a court of law, and inflict punishment, but thats why the 14th Amendment took great care not to treat this as a punishment. Its a disability. They call it that. It is not imprisonment. Its not removal from office, and impeachment. Because it is not a punishment, because it is not a deprivation of any right or entitlement, nobody has a right to be president without meeting the qualifications, it has to be applied in the first instance by an ordinary human being who is then challenged in court. What made you think this was an insurrection . The constitution uses the term insurrection over and over again to make clear what it means when it means, and organized effort, using all means available, up to and including violence, if necessary, to prevent the government from performing its functions for the american people. And one of those central functions is the peaceful transfer of power from one president to the next. So, i think any Secretary Of State offer rating without any partisan motive, whether this was donald trump or any other president who did it, we have to conclude this was an insurrection and, at the very minimum, he gave aid and comfort when he decided to let it continue, when he cheered, on when he pointed a finger of blame at the embattled Vice President in the face of the gallows that had been constructed, he gave aid and comfort to the enemies of the constitution of the United States. And to put the icing on the top of that, rather and tasty cake, he said i would terminate the constitution if necessary. Hold on to power. How could he do that and then take an oath to uphold . It foldings fingers crossed. He is not qualified for the presidency. Most law students would not have the privilege of having this conversation with the two if you, and i appreciate and im honored by your time, include, jeff looting, anyone who redouble those indictments will your fingerprints all over some of the decisions that were made to uphold the constitution and not overthrow the last election. , so we thank you for your service to the country. Of course, lawrence, you continued analysis that youve provided with the american people, and many of her lawsuits with over the last 50 years. We are grateful to both of you. I implore our audience to read the article that has just been published this morning. We will, in fact, im going to tweeted that right now so that our audience can read it. Judge Jay Michael Luttig is a former federal judge of the u. S. Court of appeals for the fourth circuit. Lawrence tribe is Professor Emeritus at Harvard Law School and the author of the book, american Constitutional Law. A quick programming note, tomorrow night, all be hosting special coverage. Join msnbcs many often, in hidden, elation ended, al sharpton, and, before analysis of the gop reckoning with republicans facing a seminal moment of a frontrunner facing federal charges. Thats tomorrow night, eight pm eastern, on msnbc. You are watching velshi. Velshi. On a hard seltzer budget. Wayfairs got just what you need what. Yall this is nice. Salad plates . Kelly clarkson . Im fancy now i have always wanted statement lighting. Get nice things at nice prices at wayfair wayfair, youve got just what i need dad we got our Subaru Forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. vo subaru is the National Park foundations largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. More shopping . You should watch your spending honey. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. 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We are by the way just days away from the first Republican Debate of the 2024 primary season. I wonder if theres some people in that season who would like to see the 14th Amendment Section Three invoked in donald trump not be the candidate because he might not be qualified to be the president of the United States. But the most popular candidate among all right now is donald trump. He will not be there on wednesday. He said he is skipping the offense. Rick tyler joins me now, a former National Spokesperson for the ted cruz 2016 president ial campaign, longtime friend of mine. He is got experience preparing candidates for debates. But in 2016, he played donald trump in a mock debate with ted cruz. Thank you for being here. Its not often you anti get to and you want. It is not often that you and i get to spend time together. I want to pick up on the little of that conversation i just had with luttig and tribe. Who say, and they said is up to the people who put the president candidates name on the ballots, mainly the secretaries of state, but that section of the 14th Amendment of the constitutional Section Three says if you lead an insurrection, youre disqualified from Holding Public office. And the story. That is probably not going to come up in the debate on wednesday, because everybody in that debate, with the exception of maybe Chris Christie and is dodging the question of Donald Trumps culpability in the mess we are in right now. What would you do if you are devising a plan . Currently, ali i think the Republican Party is going to suffer if you embrace trump and he ends up being the nominee, i think will lose the house. I dont think we will win the senate, which should be an easy lift this cycle. But the problem is. Now lets say they all came to their senses and said this is a bad guy. We should distance ourselves from him. Theyll lose the election as well, because trump has a large amount of supporters. The Republican Party is going through really an existential identity crisis. They dont know who they are. They dont know what they believe. You can take it apart in two ways, or two sections. Its always policy and politics. On the policy side, trump now has a record, which is frankly easy to run against. From a conservative standpoint, a republican standpoint, in a primary, he doesnt have a record of achievement. He did not balance the budget. He did not reduce the size of government. He increased the size of the deficit with china. The border is no better than it was before. And he lost 3 million because you completely mishandled the covid crisis. So, he doesnt have a record of success. Chris christie seems to be the only one running against donald trump. Everyone else wants to play his defense lawyer. But then look at the politics of it donald trump hasnt won anything since 2016. Hes lost the house. He lost the senate, i would say, twice. Willfully. I think that 2022 election was a referendum on trump, even though he wasnt on the ballot. It was about him, because the Senate Candidates were all his handpicked. And he lost the white house. , oh, thats three for three and four years, and if he is the nominee, i think well get wiped out as similar to what we did in watergate, 1978. The league in 2016 over his other candidate was not as great as it is right now. But when hes got out on a few things, including iowa, it gave your candidate a lot of strength. Ted cruz, Last Man Standing in that thing, largely because donald trump gave him a lane to run in. Does that happen now . Does donald trump missing out on the debate give anyone opportunity . Well, yes and no. If donald trump isnt there, and by the, way im not convinced you wont get the bait. Hes got till monday. Still show up. And be as clever as ever. The problem is if desantis is at the debate and trump is in, desantis becomes the guy everyone is going to go after. Because all the other candidates want to be the alternative to trump. The problem is, except for Chris Christie, who is not real popular with the base of the Republican Party, except for Chris Christie, all of them have what i call hope as a plan. Hope is a wonderful thing, but it doesnt work in politics. You need a plan. You cant hope the Courts Indict Trump and move the trial date and convict him and put him in jail. You cant hope his followers will just suddenly come to their senses and say, maybe we shouldnt support a convicted felon. At the time. , so, it will be all about desantis. I have a hard time believing trump, and look, my advice to any candidate ahead of 30 points is dont debate. You have nothing to do but lose. Right . But i think it will be very difficult for trump to resist not being on the stage and not being there in that being the center of attention. So, well see. You know, his post in the last several weeks have become very angry. Even by donald trump standards. You just attacks everybody, including republicans. Its almost become a sideshow that he attacks joe biden and the communists or whatever he calls them. Hes going after a lot of republicans. I wonder, in his presence amongst other candidates, whether hes not the tough guy, the which he, guy a funny guy that he used to be. Donald trump can be very compelling on the debate stage. She doesnt sound like a very compelling guy right now. No. Ive met donald trump. I spent a little bit of time. Donald trump is a very talented individual, Buddies Challenge channeled all those talents in the wrong way. I dont know that he will come across as charming on the debate stage. But perhaps he can, because ultimately, what he is a seesaw performer. I dont think hes president ial. I dont think you should be anywhere near the white house. I dont think he has the temperament to be president. I dont think he has the vision to be president. But when he gets in front of a crowd, its electric. Ive talked to many reporters, and they feel it. They know, because they cover him. Its something else. Donald trump is, like i say, in 2016, our idea was with ted cruz was will just play nice with him until the Last Man Standing, then well go head to him with him. It didnt work. It didnt work. Everything you do, you cant run around and treat donald trump like hes an unexplored ordinance. You have to take him on. Elections are about a, a future, which is why donald trump is going to lose talking about the past, and its about differences. Almost none of these candidates, except for christie, is pointing out and making themselves different. But i do think there is one opportunity. Donald trump has tapped into something that is real, which is why people follow him, but hes tapped into the demon side of our nature. And i think Abraham Lincoln wanted us to tap into the better side of our nature. There is the same issues that donald trump wants to deal with, but i think theres a positive, optimistic, and future of opportunity with those same issues. I think the candidate that presents that can beat donald trump. Good to see you as always, my friend. Thanks for being with us. Rick tylers a former National Spokesperson for ted cruzs white house bid in 2016. Hes an msnbc political analyst, and longtime friend. All right, weve got Breaking News about severe weather. Right now, parts of the west coast, hunkering down in anticipation of hurricane hilary. Its a massive category four storm headed towards california, which the National Weather service says could bring catastrophic and lifethreatening flooding in the southwestern states. Not just california. Some of the states you associate as being traditionally quite dry. Right, now the storm is churning off of Mexicos Pacific coast. Neither a hurricane nor a Tropical Storm has made landfall in Southern California since 1939. This comes as wildfires continue to wreak havoc in canada. All 20,000 residents of yellowknife, the capital of canadas northwest territories, have been forced to evacuate. 1500 miles south of that, in kelowna, a much larger city located just over the border from washington state, officials have issued a new state of emergency, because of quickly encroaching wildfires. Canada has reported a Record Number of wildfires this year. More than 5700 so far. After the break, were going to hawaii for the latest on the investigation into the historic wildfires there. Which have left released 114 people dead. A figure Officials Say it will climb dramatically asked the Recovery Efforts continue. Fforts continue. 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This comes as the governor of hawaii is vowing to get to the bottom of what ignited the initial fires, amid growing questions of blood and who there is responsibility. Nbc news correspondent Steve Patterson has more. This morning, with questions swirling, new developments in the tangled fallout from the deadliest wildfire in modern american history. Overnight, the governor delivering a statewide address. We will get to the bottom of exactly how the fire started, how our Emergency Procedures and protocols need to be strengthened, and how we can prove our defenses. To protect us in the future. This follows a week of mounting criticism about the Emergency Response on the day of the fire. In just two days after mauis top Emergency Management official resigned. Herman and that is stepping down, citing health reasons, following widespread criticism that hawaii some urgency sirens were not activated. Do you regret not sounding the sirens . I do not. And i defended the decision, saying the system was mostly used for tsunami, and activating it may have pushed people towards the flames. That citizens of the state of hawaii say sirens have not been used for brush fires. A new nbc news revealed Public Meeting records found that andaya downplayed the use of sirens, saying from what we understand, the siren is kind of a last resort. If you told people to leave their house with a siren, that theyve smelled smoke and head to the black smoke . Give them the opportunity. Thats insulting the intelligence of the people who live here. Meanwhile, overnight, another lawsuit filed against hawaiian electric, with more allegations the utility is at fault for starting the fires. The atf, now on the ground, assisting with the investigation into the calls. All while search crews continue to scour the charred ruins of lahaina. With more than half the search area completed, at least 1000 people are still unaccounted for, including tasha back nasanto, pablo, who was married to his wife, meld, up for almost 50 years. Her cousin just submitting a dna sample to find out if he is among the dead. Are you hopeful hes still alive . I think i need to validate what my auntie shared with us. And she knows he is no longer here. I think the closure with that the nhl test will help us move on, as well. Thanks to nbcs Steve Patterson for that report. Finally, vitally important we know it was in the latest Fulton County indictment of donald trump and 18 others. I have credit for you, by the way. Its not available as a two part special episode of msnbcs prosecuting donald trump podcast. All you have to do is scan the qr code on your screen. Were going to put it on many times over the next hour and a half, and listen that. Well be right. Back ight back Type 2 Diabetes . Discover the ozempic® trizone. 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The Fulton County indictment lays out a scheme aimed at overturning the 2020 election that begins with Trump Campaign officials and extends all the way down to Election Officials at the local level. This case stands apart from the other trump indictments because it targets exclusively republican players who actively participated in a multi state effort to breach Voting Systems and compromised sensitive voter data. According to the indictment quote, members of the enterprise, including several of the defendants, corruptly conspired in Fulton County, georgia, and elsewhere to unlawfully access secure Voting Equipment and voter data. The Fulton County district attorney, fani willis, zeroes in on the breeches of Voting Equipment that occurred in Coffee County, georgia. One of the countrys earliest known breaches of Voting Equipment. Four of the 19 defendants charged under georgias racketeering statue are accused of breaching dominion Voting Machines and sharing those files with other Election Deniers, serving as part of a broader effort to overturn the 2020 election. Quote, several of the Defendants Corruptly, let me put it this way, several of the Defendants Corruptly conspired to unlawfully access secure Voting Equipment and voter data, and stole data, including ballots images, Voting Equipment software, and personal voter information. The stolen data was then distributed to other members of the enterprise, including members in other states. Similarly, jack smiths federal indictment ended with the allegation that trump was part of a conspiracy against the right to vote and have ones vote counted. It accuses that trump and his confederates deliberately eroded trust in the electoral process by pursuing unlawful means of subverting the election results. Among the four individuals charged with breaching Voting Equipment and the georgia indictments are sydney powell, a former member of trumps legal team, kathy latham, of former schoolteacher and a warmer of the Coffee County gop, who escorted from belize into the coffee camp the gops, and mr. , hampton was tasked with overseeing Coffee Counties elections. Look at getting these in fizzles of the Coffee County office was at Computer Forensics a team to hire electric according to the indictment, a team working for the firm, sullivan structure, along with powell, traveled to Coffee County Yoshinori Seventh with the purpose of quote, willfully tampering with said electronic Ballot Markers and tabulating machines. Howell had previously ditch past the same perm to michigan, to copy election data from rural and county Voting Machines. According to the indictment, the illicitly obtained data was stored on a secure server and access by multiple trump allies and Election Deniers across the country. Joining the four individuals charged are a slew of Unindicted Coconspirators who participated in the breach of Voting Equipment, leveraging their testimony to potentially escape formal charges. Pack 91 of the georgia indictment, for example, accuses Sidney Powell accused of emailing the firms Sullivan Strickler and instructing them to send the copy of all data obtained from michigan to three unnamed coconspirators labeled as individual six, individual 21, and individual 22. The indictment also casts light on individual 25, suspected to be doug logan, the head of the firm, cyber ninjas, which if you remember, carried out the republican led Election Fraud in arizona after the 2020 election. Now, logan is counted among two Unindicted Coconspirators who allegedly physically entered non public areas of kofi countys Election Office on january 18th, 2021. In his deposition, Logan Attested to conducting tests on Coffee Counties election systems. Now, thats during allegations laid out by the latest indictment uncovers A Multi State Conspiracy that has left our Electoral System in a more precarious position, with mounting concerns that future Election Deniers might in, the very name of safeguarding, it undermined the very Voting Systems that they are interested to protect. After the break, im joined by someone whos dealt with similar instances of tampering with Voting Machines in her state. The colorado Secretary Of State, janet griswold. Net griswold fashion moves fast. Setting trends is our business. We need to scale with customer demand. 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One bank for both. Chase. Make more of whats yours. Before the break, i talked about the litany of republican efforts to breach Voting Machines and tampered with election day that that were outlined in the georgia indictment. For more on this, im joined by Government Official who also dealt with a Voting Machine Tampering in her state. The colorado Secretary Of State, janet griswold. Good to see you, secretary. I appreciate you being. Here theres a very direct tied to colorado that wasnt mentioned in the indictment. I want to get to that in a second, but the first thing i want to talk to you about is at the top of the show, its early for you out there, so you may not have seen, it but i had a great conversation with the former federal judge, Michael Luttig and the harvard constitutional professor, Laurence Tribe, about the 14th Amendment of the constitution Section Three, that says if you get yourself involved in an insurrection, you cant run for Public Office in this country. So, i asked Professor Tribe, i, said very interesting. Its very clear to me in the constitution thats what it says, they published a piece in this morning about it, but i asked him who enforces that. Let me just listen to what he said and, then i want to discuss it with you. The constitution itself says that he cant be president. Now, who enforces that . In the first instance, it is the officials who decide whether his name can be put in nomination. Can he run as an official candidate . In michigan, wisconsin, nevada, georgia, any other state . Usually, it is the Secretary Of State that must make that call. Okay, so, theres the question for. You you are a Secretary Of State. There is something in the constitution that says if you run an insurrection, you cant be on a ballot. How do you handle Something Like that . Well, good morning, ali. Started off with the tough questions. Always glad to be here. So, first and foremost, there is a lot of steps that have to happen before we even get into the question of ballot certification. In colorado, no candidate has even delivered eligible paperwork yet. Of course, theres fees, the parties have to say the person has a bona fide candidate, and of course, one of the big reasons were here to talk this morning is that theres all this litigation happening around the country. So, i would say it is premature for me, as Secretary Of State, to comments, but this topic is more and more in the news. Its a novel situation, as all of this has been, given the former president tried to steal the 2020 election and his assault on democracy has not stopped. Let me ask you about colorado. Again, there is a lot of detail in this indictment. Its not in here, but the former mesa county colorado clerk, tina peters, was indicted in your state for Election Tampering and granting unauthorized people access to election equipment, which is very similar to what was described in georgia. So, you are very familiar with this situation. What do you make of this . How widespread this tampering is . Its not what donald trump alleged, that there is a bunch of democrats going going and doing this. Everyone in the country charged with his offense has been a republican, as it stands. But what do we do about this . How do you manage this as a Secretary Of State . Well, i was put in the position to address the first known election insider Security Breach in the country. And what this georgia indictment shows us there was actually a breach five months before the mesa county breach. I think there is a couple of takeaways first. Mesa county clerk, tina peters, did not do this alone. She was helped by many of trumps associates who have yet to be prosecuted or indicted in the mesa breach. But second, the use of insider treatments to try to destabilize election equipment, so chaos across the country is much more widespread than i think we, as a nation, initially thought. I address the situation very quickly, but then lebron nations firstever law inside our threats. We made it a felony to do that type of behavior. We added whistleblower protections, increased our physical security. There was going to be 20 47 cameras. There is going to be swipe access to where the Voting Equipment is, along with other security upgrades. And one of the things is the rest of the nation needs to follow colorados leads. This Insider Threat of Election Tampering is not over. Many states have not passed the reforms that colorado passed, and we need to very quickly that for the 2024 election. There is somebody who may or may not be an unindicted Consent Coconspirator in this indictment in georgia. Who had said to the washington post, when asked about cant really make sense that random people could be heard by a campaign to go into an Elections Office to get a thumb drive into downloaded. This persons response, shes a lawyer, said, theres nothing wrong with. That county wants to double check their machines, theyre entitled to get that kind of verification outside. Can that happen . Can random companies be hired to come in and check machinery and Download Data the way that its alleged happened in georgia. Absolutely not. Its very probably under state law, am facing various felony for doing exactly that. Also legal under federal law. The idea that just a random person has unrestricted access to Voting Equipment is a huge Security Breach. It leads to the decertification of Voting Equipment. And make no mistake, the trump world purpose is to sow chaos. To sow chaos. To use those types of scenarios as a way to push out further disinformation across the country. It is highly