Thank you for your coverage, my friend. You bet. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Former President Donald Trump, former President Donald Trump got some marching orders today. The judge overseeing Special Counsel jack smiths case into trumps attempt to overturn the 2020 election, judge Tanya Chutkan, today she laid out some new rules for the former president , as far as the next phase of this criminal indictment. When mr. Trump want to go over sensitive evidence, like Witness Emails or Audio Recordings in his testimony, he is not allowed to bring anything into the room with him that could be used to copy that sensitive material. Like a smartphone, if trump is reviewing this material on his own. Or, alternatively, trump can take his phone with him but his Defense Counsel has to babysit him to make sure he does not copy anything onto his phone. And if the defendant takes notes, regarding sensitive materials, the Defense Council must inspect those notes. It is sort of like the sats, only its all part of a federal criminal indictment. As the prosecution argued for that provision, they argued dryly and pointedly, trump has shown a tendency, a desire to hold on to material which he should not have. Yes, that is correct, trump was caught having taken more than 300 classified documents with him to his Florida Beach house when he left the white house. The reason this all had to be ironed out today is because Special Counsel smiths team is going to start handing trumps Team Evidence to review before they all go to trial. Those rules are part of a much larger protective order that judge checkin ordered today, outlying what evidence trump cannot share from this case outside court. And we learned as part of all of this that there is a lot of evidence to be handed over. The government is ready to hand over 11. 6 million pages of documents, all preloaded onto a discovery software, for attorneys to review and a hard drive that has evidence, like did obtained through these stored communications act. That means data that was collected by thirdparty Companies Like twitter or, say, verizon. But maybe most intriguingly on that hard drive are hundreds of Audio Recordings of Witness Interviews if the government is ready to hand over. And you can imagine how threatening or intimidating it would be if trump did Something Like post snippets from those reportings on to say, truth social. The point of todays hearing was to iron out all the rules along that stuff before trump could get his hands on any of it. And what was revealed in the course of all of this is that judge chutkan very much has Donald Trumps number. She knows who she is dealing with here. When the judge was, well, while she was clear about defending trumps actual First Amendment rights, she was also appropriately skeptical about trumps arguments for Special Treatment. He is a criminal defendant, judge chutkan said. He is going to have restrictions like every single other defendant. The fact that the defendant is engaged in a Political Campaign is not going to allow him any greater or lesser latitude than any defendant in a criminal case. To drive his home, judge chutkan referred to trumps president ial campaign as his, quote, day job. His day job. Okay. So, in addition to showing that donald trump was not going to get any white left men here in this courtroom, judge checkin also made clear that trumps rights were not the only writes she is concerned with. She is focused on the rights and safety of the witnesses and the jurors in this case. You may remember that part of the reason for todays hearing in the first place it was to discuss this this truth social post that trump made saying if you go after me i am going after you. Special counsel jack smiths team argued that statements like these could threaten or intimidate witnesses, and that trump should be barred from making them. Earlier this week, trump let everyone know what he would do in response to a restriction like that. Crooked joe now wants the thug prosecutor, this deranged guy to file a court order, taking away my First Amendment rights so that i cant speak. Listen to this. We dont want you to speak about the case, the case. I will talk about it, i will. They are not taking away my First Amendment rights. I will talk about, it i will, i will. Points for honesty, i guess . Today judge chutkan indicated she was not down for. That you pointed other potential witnesses here may not have had the kind of protections he has as a former president. And that she, quote, could see the possibility for a lot of problems here. I can see the possibility for a lot of problems here. And dont we, all judge chutkan . Remember former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine Marie Ivanovich testified against trump in his first impeachment in 2019 . While she was testifying, donald trump was live tweeting about her. Or do you remember when he harassed and intimidated georgia poll worker ruby freeman, sheamus, women who do not have secret Service Protections and could be witnesses in this very case . They remember that. And so apparently does judge chutkan, who was clear today that he would not stand for that kind of behavior or any kind of behavior that even suggested witness intimidation. Quote, even arguably ambiguous statements from parties or their counsel, if they can be reasonably interpreting interpreted to intimidate witnesses or prejudice potential jurors, can threaten the process. And now, given how frequently trump threatens people publicly and the judges wording about even arguably ambiguous statements, that feels like a line that trump could cross any second. And as of today, we finally have an answer as to how judge chutkan will reprimand mr. Trump if he does cross this line. Quote, the more a party makes inflammatory statements about this case, which could taint the jury pool or intimidate potential witnesses, the greater the urgency will be that we proceed to trial quickly. One of the main objectives of trump and his legal team so far has been to slow this trial down. Today, the judge used that desire as both a carrot and a stick. The more trump breaks, judge chutkans roles and talk about a case outside of court, the faster this thing will go to trial. That now that those ground rules have been put in place, the new and very urgent question is, how long until trump breaks them . Joining me now to discuss all this is david errant, former prosecutor in the dojs National Security vision, and a former manhattan assistant district attorney. And ryan reilly, nbc news justice reporter who was inside the courtroom for todays hearing. Thank you both. Ryan, let me start with you. On paper, it feels like judge chutkan it is sort of a wet blanket, but not a a cold dose of reality to the realities the defense seem has been about a case they could make to her on a number of fronts. What can you tell us about her general posture towards the defense today . Theres definitely a lot of side ice, i think, from some of the lines we saw coming from Donald Trumps defense. But really of the word of the day to me that she used six different times was yield. That means that the defendants other rights, his First Amendment rights, must yield to the process of this court, must yield to the administration of justice. And that basically saying, listen, all these concerns you have play second fiddle here. They are not the main concern. My main concern is making sure this case goes forward, making sure that this case is handled fairly, and making sure we can get a jury trial. Like you, said it was that carrot and stick sort of situation where, you know, theoretically, in any other case, you would have that idea of Potential Contempt Of Court coming down. That is something here. But of course, you know, it is hard to imagine is getting into a scenario where the judge is actually going to lockup donald trump pretrial. But that is potentially something that would go down the line. I do think that could be a better way of sort of enforcing this. Judge chutkan saying, listen, the more you violate these, rules the quicker we will have to go here. There is a very logical reason for that. Because future comments could spoil the jury pool and make it more difficult to get a fair trial going in here. Of course, donald trump doesnt want this case to go to trial in d. C. , but the rules in d. C. Are, hey, we are going to try to see the jury. That has not worked in any of the january 6th cases ive covered thus far, where that is just really been shot down and the Voir Dire Process can actually work, if you have jurors swear an oath and promise they will obey that, oh they can handle these cases fairly. Yeah. I feel like she really went for the defenses Achilles Heel by suggesting not talking about fines, nothing about jail time but the thing that they do not want to do, which is have a speedy trial. Dave, what is involved, i guess for those of us who dont understand the sort of length of time that is minimally required to have a federal trial. How reasonable is it to say im going to move his date up the more you infringe on the protective order . What practically can that mean . I think there are limits to what it practically can mean. Its not as though every time there is a violation the trial date gets ratcheted two weeks or earlier. That would not be workable. I think it is more of a thematic or general point the judge is making, that there are inevitably moments leading up to a trial when schedules have to get altered one way or another, and one thing the judge is going to be thinking a lot about is the costs of delaying. And here, the judge talked very explicitly about how very, a very significant cost of delay that could be fundamental to the fairness and efficiency of the trial. Ryan, i was struck by the fact that she sort of dismissively suggested that the president s candidacy, sorry, the former president s bid to be president again it was a day job. I mean, up until this point, i think theres been a sort of deference, at least in terms of narrative to donald, the idea of Donald Trumps campaign in 2020. Four but judge chutkan seemed completely uninterested in that. I wonder how that squares with her posture generally towards other january six defendants. Yeah, that was a very interesting. I think she is searching for a term or a word at the moment. That is what she stumbled on. Its probably an accurate description. That is probably how she thinks of it in terms of other cases that have were handled. This isnt something that he needs to do. This is something that he wants to do. And the priority, she kept saying, was the courtroom proceedings, the priority isnt mitigating in this case in public. That is not what this trial is ultimately about. That is what she really wants them to get their focus on. Certainly, they have the First Amendment right to talk about the charges in general, but she really wanted to make it clear that you cannot violate those rules and intimidate, intimidate jurors, as weve seen donald trump do in the past. Its interesting because i do think the judges in quite a spot here in terms of these threats are certainly going to be directed at her. Donald trump has already made clear he wants a different judge and she shouldnt have been assigned to this. Thats not something you hear his lawyers arguing in court. That is something that the Special Counsels office pointed out, that there is already this divide between what donald trump is saying on truth social and what his lawyers are actually doing in court. That is going to probably be a split that she would probably like to bring in a little bit, right . Bring them back on the same page. But ultimately, i think that there is this huge combination happening between the legal and a political where it really is the whole ball game, to when this trial ultimately get set for. They are sort of wanting to make the election stand in for a jury trial here. Yeah, clearly. For many reasons, right . Dave, im struck by ryan you know, when we talk about the various Judges Postures towards donald trump and how trump would like a different judge on this. Presumably, you dont like someone more like aileen cannon. I think what we have with the American Public right now is a study in terms of two federal judges, right . One, aileen cannon, thus far, in all the rulings, has seemed deeply differential to the fact that donald trump is running for president. And here we have Tanya Chutkan in washington, d. C. , who stated almost the opposite tack, as ryan explained, just kind of a so what if you are running for president . I guess my question is, which do you think is more unusual in terms of staking out a position towards this 2024 president ial bid . Its unusual for a judge to have to take a position on the defendant running for president , of course. I think what we are seeing in d. C. Is a reflection of the truth in every criminal case. The defendant has plenty other things to do and plenty other things going on in their life rather than show up in court, abide by court rulings, you know, obey the judges orders. But the judge is really having none of that in d. C. And, you know, that is again playing it down the middle. There is been, i think, a little bit of flexibility given the realities of the position that the former president isnt and his needs to be able to speak. But when it comes to anything that would affect the fairness, the efficiency, witness safety, witness security, integrity of evidence, this judge is going to be applying the exact same rules that she would be applying in any other case. I think as an experienced former public defender, this judge has seen quite a lot. Shes seen a lot of defendants, she knows a lot of how different defendants behave, some of their tricks, some of the pitfalls of how defendants might behave. She knows what control has to be exercised over a defendant consistent with that defendants First Amendment and due process rights. Can i just follow up on that, dave . In terms of the protocols shes established here, the notion that trump has to have his Defense Counsel babysit him, effectively, when he is looking at sensitive material, they have to check his notes if he takes any when he is looking at the materials, how unusual is that . You know, it was in the prosecutors proposed order. In my former career, you know, within the context of classified information, that was definitely the kind of thing that you would see in there. What really struck me here was the red line version that the defense proposed to the judge, or they sought to strike out explicitly that chaperone or babysitting or hall monitor provision. And the judge, this isnt just a judge accepting a document that was presented to her and signing it. This is the exact clause that was litigated. This was redlined. The red line was rejected. This judge, you, know regardless of how it might go in any other case, this judge was squarely presented with the question of, does she have confidence enough to allow the former president of the United States to take notes that are appropriate . And this judge decided, no, that the judge only has confidence or would only have that confidence if the defendants, the former president s attorneys scrubbed his notes and made sure he had not written down anything he wasnt allowed to. I think john lauro probably does not want to have to be the person to scrap Donald Trumps notes. I have to ask you, speaking of trumps lawyers, they kept referring to this with group of Volunteer Lawyers who might need to be granted access to the evidence they were litigating in court today. Why is the trump team using Volunteer Lawyers . I ask that because the New York Times reporting trump super pac, which has done far been footing a lot of the legal bills here, isnt a cash crunch. Are we to believe trump is running out of money and needs Volunteer Lawyers in this case . He is certainly raising a lot of money off of the cases altogether. But i think it could be an issue for, him because he does have a lot of legal issues. Remember, he is paying for the representations of a lot of these people who are caught up, especially in both investigations, but whove been caught up both in the maralago investigation as well as this investigation overall, to keep them in the tent, make sure they are not stepping outside the bounds. The way they would sort of frame that is making sure that perhaps young staffers arent having their Financial Lives destroyed because they represented, they work for the president at one point. That is going to eat up a lot of money, that is going to be a lot of billable hours people can put in their. That is really they are in this moment right now where i do think they are burning through a lot of money. Certainly, there are a lot of people who are probably willing to do that for free to some capacity. Its a lot of documents they are going to have to sort through here. I think just manpower is really going to be needed to get through some of this and a tremendous amount of discovery. Yeah, 11. 6 million pages. For the record, the super pac is using the roughly 30 cents of every dollar donated to spend on legal bills. Dave aaron and ryan reilly, thank you guys both for your time tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. We have a lot more this evening as we always. Do from wiretaps to the savings and loans scandal, what donald nixon, billy carter, Roger Clinton, neil bush, and other president ial Family Members have in common with hunter biden and also what they dont. Thats coming up next. wheezing asthma isnt pretty. Its the moment when you realize that a good day. Is about to become a bad one. But then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. 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Attorney who has been investigating hunter biden since 2018, hed been ready as of last month to offer hundred a plea deal that would let him avoid jail time for tax and firearm charges. That plea deal fell apart at the last minute. Today, attorney general Merrick Garland announced that same u. S. Attorney has now asked to be appointed as a Special Counsel so as to continue investigating this case. We dont know what that investigation will yield. So, far there is no evidence that the president himself is involved in any of his sons allegedly shady deals. But if there is one thing we know, it is that scandals involving the Family Members of sitting president s it is not a new phenomenon. Remember donald nixon, the brother of president nixon, who was known for trying to make money off his brothers presidency . As political magazine pointed out in 2015, Richard Nixon was so worried about his younger brother donalds willingness to trade the family name for business favors, and that early in his presidency he had the Secret Service put a tail on him and tap his phone. Which is an amazing soviet way to deal with here or shady rather. There was billy carter, the Colorful Beer Swilling Brother Of Jimmy Carter who created an enormous headache for his brothers administration when he got caught taking money from the from the government of libya. The shadow of billy carters dealings with the country of libya fell across his brothers white house again today. In a News Conference in new york tonight, the president s brother made it plain he was not happy about the statement made by the president. Yesterday i dont agree, billy carter said, that was inappropriate for me to act on behalf of a foreign government. I would be going through this i said it earlier, you can choose your friends, you cant change your a Senate Committee investigated and found no evidence that billy carter had influenced american policy. And then there was neil, bush the son of george h. W. Bush and, brother to george and jeff. During his fathers administration, neil bush wound up getting sued by federal regulators for his alleged role in a banking scandal. And the president son, neil, must explain at a public hearing why he approved 45 million in loans for a business partner. Ive got nothing to hide. Ive cooperated fully, will continue to do so. My view is the sooner the better. Neil busch eventually settled that case out of court, and then there where the clinton siblings. Bills brother, Roger Clinton, and hillarys brother, she iurato. Both of whom got caught in alleged pay to play scandals during the clinton administration. Roger carson was a musket of congress, but he was never charged. And more accusations this morning against the former president s brother, Roger Clinton, in a scandal surrounding his lastminute pardons. The New York Times reports Roger Clinton and his Business Partners are accused of promising a texas businessman diplomatic passports in exchange for 30,000. Only yesterday, Hillary Clinton tried to distance herself from the Scandal Swirling around her husband and her brother, hugh, who received 400,000 to get clemency for to wealthy felons. One of them returned the money and says he did nothing wrong. Today, nbcs Carrie Sanders caught up with him in a florida bar. A place of business, please. Theres a lot of people. I dont care about that. I made my statement, thats all im saying. And then there is the family of the 45th President , donald trump, whose daughter, ivanka, had 18 trademarks granted her by the government of china while she was working as an adviser to her father. And trumps soninlaw, jared kushner, who got a staggering Two Billion Dollar investment from the government of saudi arabia after his father in law made him a key negotiator in that region. Where the Hunter Biden Saga will fit into the history of president ial dramas very much remains to be seen. But so, far hunter biden is the only member of the president s extended family to get his own Special Counsel investigation. I will talk to George Conway about republican what republicans are doing here about what attorney general Merrick Garland is doing here and what all of this means for the 2024 president ial race, coming up next. Ming up next you also cant leave covered in hair. With bounce pet, you can cuddle and brush that hair off. Bounce. Its the sheet. [sneeze] astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other Allergy Sprays take hours. With astepros unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go rsv is in for a surprise. 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Weiss advised me that in his judgment, this investigation had reached the stage at which he should continue his work as a Special Counsel. He asked to be so appointed. Upon discovering his request, as well as the extraordinary circumstances relating to this matter, i have concluded that it is in the Public Interest to appoint him as Special Counsel. Earlier today, attorney general Merrick Garland announced the appointment of a Special Counsel in the ongoing probe of the president s son, hunter biden. David weiss it is the u. S. Attorney for delaware. He was appointed by former president trump, and hes been investigatings Justin Hunter biden since 2018. Five years this far. Less than three weeks ago, a plea deal mr. Weiss offered Hunter Biden Unraveled after a judge raised questions about some of the terms, prompting the president s son to plead not guilty. Which begs the question, if a plea deal was already in the works, after years of investigating, what more is there for the Special Counsel to investigate . Joining me now is a lawyer and columnist, George Conway. George, it is great to have you tonight. I wonder what you think is going on, here just in terms of the appointment of the Special Counsel. After five years of investigation and after a plea deal that he brokered, whats happening . I think the attorney general is being extra cautious here. I think there have been a lot of attacks on u. S. Attorney weiss, notwithstanding the fact that he was a Trump Appointee and a holdover from the trump administration. And they are attacking him because he wasnt a Special Counsel, even though weiss has been telling everyone that i basically was nothing i was not allowed to do, and i think its particularly good because one of the diddy things that has to happen under the Special Counsel regulations after the investigations are over is that the Special Counsel has a right to report. I think that is going to be good for transparency here. So you think i guess you think if there is a purpose to all of this, that sort of could put the issue to rest. I will know that republicans have immediately to cry the fact that david weiss is being appointed Special Counsel and it shows this is a sham and not for real. One wonders if you truly think republicans will be cited if and when a report comes out. They wont be. They wont be. I actually have a secret source thats given me a special look at the Hunter Biden Flow Chart for their talking points. Heres how it goes. It starts out here, you have the trump bar u. S. Attorney, thats good. Then you have trump loses the election, sad face. Trump who fails, sad face. And then you go over here, biden takes over the investigation, the Biden Administration takes over the investigation, oh, double sad face. Then you go, appointed justin Special Counsel, if the answer is yes, you say there is a coverup. He if the answer is yes, you point at a different prosecutor and you say bad, you are delaying this guy, this investigation because i invested for five years. If you say, yes, but you make a different person the investigator, you say, oh my god, it shouldve been someone else, this is terrible, this is your handpicked person. It shouldve been rudy giuliani. Is that what it said . It shouldve been rudy giuliani. If you say no Special Counsel, you get what they did originally, which was coverup, coverup unfair when will any of these goes and prosecutes hunter biden and charges him with the plea deal or an indictment, well, if that happens, you say the charges are lame, they should be the death penalty. What about you should be charging brandon. If they dont charge, outrage if you have to do it all over again because of a mistrial or a plea deal falls, through you rinse and repeat and go up in here. Thats where we are now. And, while i really appreciate your commitment that flow chart and the detail with what she presented that to the American Public. I think everybody in the audience thank you today as well. George, it does expose the utter fraudulence of the republican claims around hunter biden. I would also just say, i think it is important for the sake of history to point out in the number, that someone in a president s extended family is involved in some unsavory, potentially sleazy deals to tradeoff his former brother or cousins reputation is not a new thing in american politics. That doesnt make it a good thing, but that calls for strengthening ethics laws, not necessarily, im sorry, appointing a Special Counsel . Like, why didnt billy carter and donald nixon and neil bush and Roger Clinton get Special Counsels . I wonder what you think of Merrick Garlands role in all of this. I think the problem is this is an extraordinary time. We have a sitting, the former president of the United States under indictment in four places. And we have a particularly charged environment, political environment. This guy was effectively, u. S. Attorney weiss, was effectively a Special Counsel as it was, given his mandate to basically do whatever he felt he needed to do. Why not make it official in just eliminate any issues and then get a report on the backhand . Understand if you are hunter biden or the biden family, you cant be happy with this. But look, this is a whirlwind, literally. Let me just ask you, george, i think theres also the political dimension of this as well. You rightly point out, there will be a report, there will be a process. That is important to respect the process. But there is also the very real narrative that republicans are clinging to, as you point out. Trump faces multiple federal criminal indictments in his own Special Counsel. Can they shield themselves behind the fact that biden has hunter biden has his own Special Counsel . It is this a lifeline to republicans who just want to use the old whataboutism to deflect from real concerns and criticisms directed at their front runner, regarding his federal legal no, this is just designed to basically get the republicans to go even further off that event. If they will complain about, this which they asked for, they look even more ridiculous to the mainstream person watching this and actually is paying attention and is not watching the news max or fox news or whatnot. I think it is just another, a different label for something that was already happening, this case, the plea deal fell apart. If there is any objection the biden team should have, there is a lot of talk that these tax charges would not have been charged against anyone else, they wouldve settled civilly. That is the problem if there is a problem, and we are already past that. The doj is going to prosecute hunter biden, it appears. It might as well just put all the bells and whistles on it with the Special Counsel. I hope you can lemonade that flow chart for i will absolutely. We will slap a logo on it and give it out to people who are interested in knowing what the outcome is. Can i put the Msnbc Peacock on it . We will have to talk to the branding department about that, but i admire the ambition, george. Thank you as always for your time and visual aids, George Conway. Appreciate you. Still to come this evening, republican president ial candidates are in the state of iowa paying their respects to the butter cow, eating pork chops on a stick, and otherwise pretending that donald trump is in the undisputed front runner, at least for now. Will they break out of the three Percenters Club anytime soon . That is coming up next. That is coming up next eat pretzels. Eat more pretzels. Watch movies. Watch more movies. Get airline miles. Get onekeycash. Book inapp to earn onekeycash on top of your airline miles. My Mental Health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. Td can be caused by some Mental Health meds. And its unlikely to improve without treatment. I felt like my movements were in the spotlight. 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The Iowa State Fair, they know how to get it done. We are officially at the point in the election season one every president ial candidate heads to des moines and clogs his or her arteries In The Name Of moving voters at the Iowa State Fair. Today, North Carolina governor and got some facetime with the affair, 600 pound butter cow, before he chow down on an egg on a stick, and one of the 50 food items that is available on a skewer. To be honest, one of the least inventive, just an egg on a stick. Mike pence and his wife, karen, they flipped patties at the pork producers tent, presumably those patties were pork burgers, which is interesting. Ron desantis and his family posted with albert, the Worlds Largest gold statue in audubon, ottawa. Iowa. He will be arriving in the state fair on the very same day as former president donald j trump. He will not be alone, trump will be accompanied by nine Florida Republicans who endorsed trump over the states governor with rhonda scent. This trump has a 24 point lead in iowa, but there is clearly some room for desantis or others, given what certain iowa fair voters have to say about trumps current drama. I think it was all right for the first time, but with everything going on, i just think it is time for a change. I think a lot of my friends at that voted for trump are interested in a different candidate. They feel that he is too divisive. I think im in that camp. We need to find somebody who doesnt have a whole trainload of baggage. The same may not be true for mike pence, who got heckled at the state fair, and may soon play a central role as the star witness and some of trumps legal dramas. We will talk about all that coming up next. Up next my wife and i have three children. Ruthann and i like to hike. We eat healthy. We exercise. I noticed i wasnt as sharp as i used to be. My wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said yeah, ill try it out. 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Since starting golo and release, i have dropped seven pant sizes and ive kept it off. Golo is real, our customers are real, and our Success Stories are real. Pence is a traitor. Why not give it a try . Uses his words, he is not a christian. Pence has no balls. Im glad they didnt hang you. And that was the greeting that former Vice President mike pence received at the Iowa State Fair this week. Can you call it a greeting if it involves a suggested death threat . Pence did the best he could to Gin Up Enthusiasm for himself by flipping patties and eating a pork burger in the pork tent. Admittedly, it is hard out there when you are only polling at 3 in the first of the nation caucus state. South carolina senator tim scott, who has not yet arrived at the state fair, is trickling the former Vice President right now. He is at 9 in the latest poll. Governor ron desantis is at 20 . But everyone, all of them, they are all absolutely dwarfed by the man who will be showing up at the fair tomorrow, thrice indicted, former President Donald Trump. Im joined now by tim miller, writer at large host of simone right here on msnbc, thank you both for being here. Tim, let me just start with you, since youve logged a lot of time in republican circles here. It just strikes me how dramatically worse this landscape is going to keep getting for mike pence, who is going to likely be the star witness in a federal case involving his former running mate. What happens then given where mike pence is at now . Im not sure if his campaign can get much worse, alex. So who knows. Maybe there is a surprise positive Silver Lining in there for him. To be honest, i think mike pence probably knows his campaign was over before it started. I think he feels genuinely called to do this. And he seemed, on a scale of mike pence, a little looser lately. He was speaking his truth, if you will, at the Iowa State Fair. And i guess it is better to have him out there saying that and not. I dont think it really matters what his strategy is. Republican voters are not interested in mike pence at all. When i was in iowa last week, and i met a woman who said that she shouted mike pence down the last time she saw him. That sounds like a relatively frequent greeting for him. When he goes to republican events in iowa. The same here, robert f. Kennedy junior, the democrat, Conspiratorial Democrat had a Better Rating than mike pence among Republican Caucus goers. Its just not happening for him. I think at this point he is trying to get a say his piece about what happened. And symone, i think for the purposes of history and truth it is important to have a mike pence in the republican whatever you are going to call, it field of candidates, and the very large field of candidates. I dont know if you noticed this, symone, the day after the Jacks Mitt Federal indictment in and around Donald Trumps activities trying to usurp the 2020 election, mike pence was looser. Mike pence was kind of angry seeming about what had happened. And its important with someone who has a memory still intact to be there in the middle of a group of people who otherwise have very fraudulent accounts of what happened on january 6th. Do you agree with that . I absolutely agree. Look, i dont think all of a sudden Republican Voters will open their arms to mike pence. I know tim knows very well a couple months they are just not feeling him. But its important to speak truth. And that, when it comes to january 6th, at least, that is in fact with Vice President mike pence, former Vice President mike pence is doing. I think itll be important for him to stand on the debate stage on august 23rd, whether or not donald trump is on that stage, and speak that truth. I think mike pence has gotten a little looser because it seems to me that he has not been in crowds like this for a while. Former Vice President doing a lot of speeches, not out there with the people per se. Hes had a couple go rounds being out there with people and he is someone who is comfortable on the campaign trail, honey. Unlike governor ron desantis. Yeah. I want to talk about that. Desantiss candidacy, as we all, know is not gone as planned, tim. Who is actually if anyone is able to reap the benefits in trump getting a real peril in terms of his legal exposure here and potentially losing some strength in the polls, who is in the best position to inherit some of that fall off . , the assumption would be desantis, but i wonder what you think of tim scott. I think this is why desantis is still around, probably him, which is not a great sign because of how weak his campaign has been. In order to win the republican primary, youre gonna have to win a good chunk of the maga voters who really like donald trump, as well as a good chunk of the 20ish percent of Republican Voters who are ready to move on. Youve got a win from both camps. The problem with tim scott is that he can win from the 20 that are ready to move on. Other than, that are the maga is really going to go from a pretrump era republican who offers none of the Hardheaded Culture War Stuff that they like . I dont think so. Then you get a candidate from who i think is really singing from the maga him book. He will not be able to get any of the old establishment types, a 37 year old guy spreading a bunch of 9 11 conspiracies is not the way to win the establishment republican vote. He was the bridge candidate, desantis, and he has not been good at walking across, it to go with the metaphor. Those are the three guys and none of them seemed particularly well positioned, which is why trump seems so strong. Yeah, i mean, trumps strength here is impervious to reality, simone. I do want to talk to you about hunter biden and how the republican candidates are of course easing on the news that hes going to be investigated by Special Counsel, the same person whos been investigating it for the last five years. This is going to be a campaign issue. What do democrats, what does biden do about . It it is going to come up. Thats, far they have not wanted to weigh in on either special councils. The one trump is dealing with, or the one that joe bidens son is going to have to deal with. I kind of wonder what you think will have to happen now. Alex, look, i think that especially now that a Special Counsel has been appointed in the hunter biden case, i think this just upped the ante, we will not hear from President Biden on this. Except for maybe an interview where he is pressed, and even at the interviewer will have to decide if they will go back when he is giving the same answer, i think the place where we are going to see this really unfold is next year on the debate stage where joe biden is standing on a stage with the republican nominee for president and that is where i think this will at most come to a head. Apart from, that there is not a venue, if you will, that President Biden will be present in where he will be pressed. He said in an interview he will get the answer hes always given, the interviewer decided to press for more. Symone, ive gotta ask, you i was talking to clear mccaskill about this last night. I think there are some democrats that want biden to say something, to be more aggressive, be more incredulous about the treatment that his son is getting. And you get the sense that anyone the white house is feeling that way . Well, yes or no. I think the reality is that the people in the white house serve the president president. It is very important when you serve at the pleasure of the president to understand what the president s wishes are and what the president may feel or say or do privately runs counter to can in fact run counter to what the public, what hes Put Forth In The Public and what theyve said their barometer is for dealing with this department of justice. I think there are two things at play here. One, the treatment of his son, his only surviving son, and then number two, the freedom that he believes that the department of justice, and independent department of justice, should have to do their work. Now, i guess the last thing i will notice there are folks out here saying, oh, hunter biden is getting Special Treatment. Joe biden really needs the answer for the Special Treatment at this time. I, mean the man is literally under investigation. He got a Special Counsel. Yes, exactly. That is the Special Treatment. Tim miller, symone sanderstownsend, thank you my friends. Simones show airs right here on msnbc every saturday and sunday at four pm eastern. Really appreciate you guys. That is our show for tonight. Now its time for the last word with who is in for lawrence. Good evening, jonathan. Good evening, alex. We will keep the conversation going about Special Counsel jack smit