Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240704

Election. Though the dispute is technically over the handling of evidence, its become a proxy war of the expresident s mob boss tactics. Its a little complicated, but incredibly important. Here is where things stand right now. Federal judge chutkan was ordered a hearing over the Justice Departments request for a protective order. The rules governing the process between prosecutors and the defense team. The Washington Post notes such orders can be technical but are routinely approved by judges to protect witnesses and government investigative methods and priorities by limiting evidence by the defense to people authorized by the court. In its argument for a protective order, the Justice Department made a nod to the fact that the defendant has prosecutors explained they wanted to immediately turn over evidence to speed Defense Trial Preparations but were concerned in part over trumps history of posting on social Media Associated with cases against him. Trumps defense team complained the governments proposed limits were overbroad and would limit the First Amendment rights of President Bidens main political opponent. Here is team trump proposed. Mr. Lauro approached him speaking freely about the nonsensitive government materials and narrow the scope of the governments order to shield only genuinely sensitive material. The Justice Department is having none of it. In a filing late last not, prosecutors say, quote, the defendant instead proposed an order designed to allow him to try this case in the media rather than in the courtroom. Prosecutors also pointed out that trumps attorney, john lauro appeared on five, yes, five sunday shows to discuss the case, adding the defendant seeks to use the discovery material to litigate this case in the media, but that is contrary to the purpose of criminal discovery which is to afford defendants the ability to prepare for and mount a defense in court, not to wage a media campaign. The Justice Department and trumps attorneys will now square off in court to decide the matter, even as the defendant himself shows no signs of being willing to obey any of the rules of the road regarding evidence and witnesses. Just moments ago at a rally in new hampshire, trump insisted he will continue talking about the case saying, quote, they are not taking away my First Amendment right. Let talk about that with National Investigative reporter for the Washington Post, carol letity. Also joining us, former fbi counterintelligence agent peter strzok and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General and former u. S. Attorney harry litman is here with us. Cara, on one hand youve got a defendant who is an expresident on his third run for the white house. He has a wellknown history of attacking witnesses, judges, prosecutors. He just said he will not stop talking about this case. On the other hand you have a Justice Department who wants to zealously protect their evidence and a whole slew of witnesses. How does this play out . I cant predict exactly, alicia, whats going to happen. I will tell you how routine it is for a protective order in this courthouse and many others like it. It is a standard procedure that youre not allowed to do what john lauro was doing, talking publicly about the theory of their case, discussing some of the details, the witnesses trying to rip apart the governments position. That is usually frowned upon severely to the point that judges try to step in and stop that. In this case, a protective order seems to make some sense given that donald trump recently said in a very threatening post, you know, if youre coming for me, im coming for you. Try to put those words in the mouth of a defendant who is charged with another kind of violent conspiracy forgive me a kind of violent conspiracy. Pretend its a gangland drug leader. Pretend its a person who owns a multimillion Dollar Corporation and is charged with stoking violence in some other setting. Imagine either of those defendants saying, if you come for me, im coming for you. That is sort of definitional threatening a witness. I want to just give you guys, Everybody Listening at home what typically happens when a judge feels that a defendant is threatening witnesses or potential witnesses. I sat in a gang case, a pretty famous one called murder incorporated. It involved the sale of Crack Cocaine and other interesting drugs in d. C. In the 1990s. When the judge learned that one of the main suspects on trial, one of the main defendants on trial was threatening witnesses through various intermediaries, giving pictures of Blood Spattered people to witnesses, he threatened to duct tape the mouth of that defendant through the entirety of the trial. He also installed essentially devices throughout the courthouse for bulletproof glass throughout the courtroom so there would be no way the defendants could talk to their witnesses or their families. Imagine duct tape on the mouth of a defendant while he sits through trial. That happened in the same courthouse where judge chutkan now sits and has to decide whether or not this protective order keeps former President Trump from exercising his First Amendment right. I wonder what you think, is judge chutkan going to take into consideration the fact not only do you have that threat from trump on truth social but just today you have him saying hes going to say whatever he wants about the case. My best guess is yes, exactly for the reasons carol said. Its completely routine to have this kind of order. We go to huge measures in the country to make sure that when trials occur, they occur in ways that are fair to defendants, among other things, but also with juries who hear the evidence only in a specific kind of way, witnesses who do their duty without having to fear for their limbs and lives, and theres no reason this is the main point that the doj finally came out with in their last filing, theres no reason trump needs this. Theres no First Amendment right here. Hes being afforded all this information to prepare his case, not to try to case in the media which is clearly what he wants to do, and, of course, in a selective way that will do exactly what he shouldnt, pollute or prejudice people and potentially endanger or threaten others. So my best guess is theres kind of a flavor of, come on, children, where shes calling them in for friday. I think she will do what is routine here and say talk about the case all you want, but do not use the discovery youre now being given to prepare your case, and dont wave that around in the public sphere. Youre not allowed to. Thats not what its for. Pete, i want to play something trump attorney john lauro said on sunday about a protective order. Take a listen. What the Biden Administration is trying to do is prevent the press from learning about exculpatory and helpful information, evidence that the people have a right to know about. The position of the prosecutor is nonsensitive, ordinary evidence shouldnt be disclosed to the press. Thats shocking. Not only do they want to violate President Trumps First Amendment rights, they want to violate freedom of the press. Peter, if it sounds familiar, its because it plays directly into trumps own rhetoric of a witch hunt. I think obviously thats nonsense. If they are so easy to get this exculpatory information 234 front of the American Public, great, lets go to trial, give them every opportunity to lay out their defense and explain what they were doing. Two big points, as carol and harry indicated, theres nothing unusual about this. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of january 6th defendants have been tried in the courthouse in the District Of Columbia with similar protective orders without any objection. In fact, the government proposed a protective order modeled on one by a trumpappointed judge. The other thing is, none of this is hypothetical. Weve seen caesar sigh yack start sending explosive devices to his enemies. Weve seen a gunman who listened to trumps Information Attack an Fbi Field Office in the midwest. Time and time again weve seen people taking what they thought was trump publishing former president obamas address and stalking and tracking that down. This is not a hypothetical threat. This is a theory based on past events that have actually occurred. It absolutely does not impact trumps First Amendment rights in any way, shape or form. Speaking to just how real this is, i want to read you a little from donls filing last night. Quote, this districts rules prohibit Defense Counsel from doing precisely what he intends to do with discovery if admitted, publicizing testimony of witnesses. Such statements risk tainting the jury pool with admissible evidence or harming the integrity of these proceedings. Harry, help us understand the fears of trump affecting the jury pool. Sure. You want jurors who will listen to the evidence as its presented in the very kind of precise ways that weve determined over centuries are fair when you go to trial. You dont want them coming in. In fact, they wouldnt be qualified to come in with strong feelings that this is all a witch hunt or these preexisting views of the case that trump is trying to sell, which, by the way, are inaccurate. Its ironic as always that he tries to wrap himself in the constitution. Hes indifferent to the constitution. The question is can he actually prejudice the entire jury pool and the country in the process. So thats what theyre worried about. And theyre really worried about any harm or fear to witnesses. Pete, to that point, jack smith knew who he was dealing with, right . He was prepared to handle a defendant that has probably the biggest platform of any criminal defendant in the United States right now. Talk us through how jack smith has anticipated some of what were watching play out right now. Im sure he like many members of his team watched what trump did visavis Special Counsel mueller. Theyve watched and are familiar with trumps behavior on social media and in his speeches. A lot of this becomes outside noise and distractions. They know what the law calls for. They are well established prosecutors. They know how to charge a case, how to take it to trial. At the end of the day, notwithstanding the fact that trump is a former president , notwithstanding the fact hes running for president , at the end of the day hes a criminal defendant, full stop. Everything that jack smith does, everything his prosecutors and investigators do are using the same standards that they would use with every other defendant in the United States of america. I dont care if its a famous ceo trying to acquire another company, a drug kingpin, i dont care who they are. Theres one standard, the standard trump is being held to like every one else in the criminal defense system. I want to turn to other news in jack smiths 2020 investigation, former nypd commissioner bernie kerik met with the Special Counsels office today, met with Rudy Giuliani today. Talk to us about kerik, about the role hes played, the information he might have, what it is that the Special Counsel most likely wants to hear from him on. Thats a really good question. As you know, Rudy Giuliani is one of the six unindicted coconspirators as weve identified at the Washington Post who are listed by jack smith as helping engage in a Conspiracy Theories with donald trump to block the peaceful transfer of power, deny voters their rightful vote and to obstruct the January 6th Certification of the free and Fair Election of joe biden. Bernie kerik was at Rudy Giulianis side, sometimes at trumps side, but far more often at Rudy Giulianis side, including, i would say, notably at what was described as the Command Center or the war room at the famous Willard Hotel in downtown washington. In the weeks prior to the January 6th Insurrection and attack on the capitol bernie kerik was working hand in glove with Rudy Giuliani as well as several other lawyers for two weeks on plans to spread the word about stop the steal, to spread the false claims that the election had been stolen and to help block State Legislatures from certifying those elections in those specific places, spreading this fake elector kind of virus in different key swing states. Bernie kerik may be able to provide some Important Information about rudy and about donald trump that may be valuable to jack smith if and when he chooses to move forward with prosecuting any of the unindicted coconspirators or in terms of shoring up some of the facts he alleges about donald trump. I would add one more thing, if i could, alicia, about the whole issue of jack smiths protective order and judge chutkans choice right now. The choice right now is for all those who watch the department of justice protecting witnesses from being attacked. I think we should also be considering what donald trump most wants, and that is to have the megaphone to get reelected, to whip up concern and support for his view that hes being railroaded and that voters who like him and support him are being undermined and railroaded themselves and done out of a chance to have donald trump back in the white house. Thats an extremely important element i think of what Donald Trumps supporters would like to see him be able to do with some of this evidence, and i would suspect donald trump himself does not want to be denied that opportunity. Why so many of the things passed off as legal theories and legal arguments are, in fact, simply political arguments meant for the court of public opinion. Harry, underline what carol was referring to. I want to read more about what investigators asked him. Smiths team didnt ask any questions about jenna ellis, another lawyer who worked on trumps efforts to contest the election or about mark meadows, trumps chief of staff in his final days of president. The team did ask a few questions about boris epshteyn, a lawyer who worked with trump after election day and who works now on his campaign and as his inhouse counsel. They asked questions about justin clark, Deputy Campaign manager of Trumps Campaign bid, parlatore said. What does that tell you, harry, about what it is that theyre focusing on . That could tell you theyre focusing on fundraising. As carol said, hes got a broad role. One thing in particular, in addition to what she said, he functions as Rudy Giulianis sort of private investigator trying to find things. We know from a Court Proceeding that he found exactly nothing. Its a little bit like the report that the Trump Campaign Commission Finding there was no fraud, hes there to also substance eight that the team up to and including trump knew there was nothing amiss even as they were acting on it and claiming. He illustrates an important people, once the grand jury has returned charges, theres no more gathering of information. You dont use the grand jury anymore, but youll have voluntary interviews including with the likes of kerik and still shoring up your case up to the very presentation. Carol leonnig, thank you for geling us start. Pete and harry, youre sticking with me. One of the lead architects of the failed coup plot, john eastman is fighting from being disbarred. His reasoning . Its only something a trump lawyer can make up. Well tell you what that is next. The gop field of president ial candidates trying , more often than not mimicking attacks on the ones trusted institutions. 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I have people come up to me all the time and ask me, does it really work . And all i have to say is, here i am. It works. My advice for everyone is to go with golo. It will release your fat and it will release you. First and foremost, donald trump lost the 2020 election. You accept that fact . Well, look, theres a large portion of the country that has issues with the 2020 election. Theres still discussion about things that went on. Large portion of the country believes in ghosts or horoscopes. Im asking you do you accept the results of the election, that donald trump lost. Im here as an attorney representing a client. I think the important thing is i want to give you the opportunity to answer it. Its a very easy question. If you can answer it my personal opinions are neither here nor there. That was the attorney for trump lawyer and coup plot architect john eastman doubling down on the same baseless, bogus claims of Election Fraud that landed his client in hot water, most recently as Donald Trumps coconspirator number two in his latest federal indictment. The pileup for eastmans legal troubles so enormous that hes boldly asked a judge in california to postpone Disbarment Proceedings against him so he can wait out charges from jack smith. Pete, how bad is it . It is so bad for john eastman that he has to fight his own disbarment and 11 disciplinary charges in california with the argument that he might also face federal criminal charges. Right. Lets keep in mind these 11 charges are extraordinary. Theyre failing to follow the constitution, failing to follow federal law, misleading the court and moral turpitude. Imagine, if you will, a physician who was charged with killing somebody on the operating room table, and in the pursuit to revoke their medical license, no, no, no, let me keep it until the courts decide whether or not i killed this person or not. Its an absurd argument. There is some element of needing to give somebody due process, needing to give them an ability to defend themselves. The fact of the matter is eastman has already given innumerable hours of testimony in front of these bar proceedings, defending himself and providing information. Is there a chance this gets delayed so he can more fully defend himself . Sure. Add potential federal indictment, add to that a potential indictment in Fulton County in the state of georgia, i just dont see any near end to the things that john eastman is likely to go through. That math is not trending in the right decks for him. Here is nbcs reporting on eastman. If the Disbarment Proceedings arent postponed, eastmans lawyers argue their client faces the difficult choice of asserting his Fifth Amendment right which allows people to not present testimony which can waive his constitutional right against selfincrimination. Harry, what is a judge going to think of that . I dont think much. Its a nut arguing hes a crackpot. Start here, his tendency to incriminate himself wont go away until the trial has run its course, appeals have happened, et cetera. What hes really asking is could he have, oh, two, threeyear kind of pause on the Disbarment Proceedings and, more importantly probably for him, not go into criminal proceedings as someone who has been found to have done these 11 things that pete just mentioned, up to and including moral turpitude. Peter, its interesting, i guess you can say, eastmans lawyer said last night theyre, quote, holding out hope he will not be indicted. If that was the case, wouldnt they maybe not be so concerned about how charges could impact his Disbarment Proceedings . Well, i think they came to the sudden realization that all these statements that he already has made to the California Bar proceedings actually, in fact, are things that jack smith and others are looking at and potentially using. At the end of the day, there is an obligation to adhere to a certain moral and ethical standard to have a bar license. That is independent of any sort of Criminal Behavior. It all goes to between his statements and the statements of his attorneys, the crazy world of disinformation in which they have bought into this narrative about all of this fraud, about all these things that demonstrably never happened. Trying to maintain that in a court of law where facts come into play isnt going to hold up No Matter What they say on television. Facts, facts, facts. Where facts come into play, that is not the territory theyre accustomed to playing in. Jack smiths indictment against trump literally laying out that eastman admitted he knew what they were doing was wrong, one of the most damning accusations against him. Do you expect charges here, harry . I do expect charges against him and all of them. I think he stated in order to make a fast charge against trump. Remember who eastman is. He comes to trump just because hes willing to say what trump wants. Look, he gets to be a rock star, too, up on the ellipse. This is a guy who crawled out from under a rock because trump was looking for anybody who would just tell him a crazy legal theory. Hes going to try to say he relied on it. Theres 18 reasons why that wont fly either. I want to pick up, pete, on something harry just said. This guy sort of appears from nowhere and then becomes a rock star. I think part of what is important always when we talk about accountability for what happened here, its, of course, retrospective accountability, but accountability such that this does not happen in the future. The fact that eastman is now being touted by many members of the Conservative Movement as a rock star, as a kind of hero. When you look at the long tail of democracy and what this will mean for us as a nation, it is hard to measure the impact of an eastman on the future trajectory on both the Conservative Movement and on democracy itself. I think thats absolutely right. If you look at the level of mediocrity of the people that surrounded trump in the last days of his administration, the alleged Criminal Behavior they engaged in. But people like jeff clark, batted around as the future Attorney General in the next trump administration. This isnt simply accountability for past bad acts, this is trying to set a standard and hold to account bad behavior so it doesnt occur again in the future. All these people are being trumpeted as heroes. The facts and all these indictments lay clearly out a pattern of alleged illegal conduct, unacceptable conduct. Its important not just because of the past but what it means going into the future. The stakes could not be higher. Peter strzok, harry litman, thank you for spending time with us. Thank you. Coming up, the life cycle of the modern republican Policy Position from Donald Trumps rants to the mouths of his competitors, even more proof today that it really still is the twiceitch peemd, disgraced expresident s party. Peemd, di expresident s party christina wanna know the secret ingredient to running my business . tina her. christina being all over, all at once. tina all the time. christina but my old network wasnt cutting it. And thats not good for baking. Or judging. 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When you smell the amazing scent of gain flings. Time stops. and you realize youre in love. Steve . With a laundry detergent. gain flings. Seriously good scent. N rather humiliating fashion the republican president ial primary has devolved into a tightroping contest. Candidates not bearing the name of trump on one hand while keeping him at arms length with the other. New york times pointed an area of broad consensus, a harmful disdain for american institutions. Listen to trump, then his competition. Do you hear the eco . A lot of things going on with our military, the woke and all this nonsense. Theyre not learning to fight and protect us from some very bad people. They want to go woke. To be yet another institution in American Life that gets infected with the woke mind virus. Weaponized department of injustice. You cant protect democrats while targeting and hunting republicans. Here is my plan to dismantle the deep state and reclaim our democracy from washington corruption once and for all. Not this bureaucracy, the deep state Administrative State that runs the show today. This is why ive said were not just going to reform these agencies, we will not just reform them. We will shut them down cut and paste. Joining our conversation, former republican strategist and cofounder of the Lincoln Project rick wilson. With me at the table, democratic strategist and director of the Public Policy program at hunter college, basil smikle. It is good to see you both. Rick, this Balancing Act that republicans have been doing, repeating trumps policies while also trying to catch up to him. Forget political strategy, the strategy is not working for them. What does it then say about the party itself more broadly, no new ideas, no big vision, theres a limited appetite for prosecuting the case against donald trump. What then is the Republican Party . These are political unix. They have no capacity to post an actual attack on trump, actual competition with trump. As you said, theyre cutting and pasting whatever trump says at any given moment. Theyre going to emulate it and duplicate it. Theyre hoping for some externality, Trump Being Hit by a meteor or eaten by a shark so they can step in and be the designated chosen one. As long as trump is pulling air into his lungs, none of them will ever have. This is an absurdity theyre engaged in. Not one of them has the courage to come out and say hes so bad, such a risk for this country that i wont vote for him if hes the nominee. They all put this caveat in this thing. That eliminates them from serious competition. Basil, here is the thing, theres the policy, the thing he said about immigration, immigrants, the blah, blah, blah about woke that has no tethering to reality. And then there are things hes saying about his own criminal prosecution. He made the argument this weekend that the prosecution regarding january 6th shouldnt be held in washington, d. C. Just this morning, take a listen to what nikki haley said. Do you think a Transfer Trial to a, you know, a 5050 district in the United States is necessary for at least the semblance of justice in this case, Madam Ambassador . I do. I mean, look, a republican cant get a fair trial in d. C. I understand what it is theyre trying to do, but its still not working. Its still not working. Sometimes when i listen to things like that, are they laying the groundwork for their own potential trials down the road, for anything they might do in the future . Its almost like theyre protecting themselves but at the same time protecting donald trump. Thats whats so scary about this, right . As rick was getting to earlier, there is no separation between any of these candidates generally speaking and donald trump and who he is and his attacks on those institutions, all because they need those votes. You know, ive always said, if youre trying to be like donald trump, why would a voter choose you when they can actually choose donald trump . What i think America Needs is a clear alternative. What the Republican Party needs is a clear alternative so they can make that decision. The reality is trump and trumpism is so engrained, so pervasive, that even when candidates think theyre original, theyre not. Thats never good for democracy. The reality is thats where we are. Just one very quick point, for tim scott to say they are targeting and hunting republicans, i take that a certain way. Hes a black man, im a black man. The language around targeting and hunting, that is not something that he should use in that context because it was used in many ways to talk about how African Americans are treated or targeted or hunted. Not the same thing. I would imagine he needs to be a little more conscious stay there. Make the subtext textual. What is he trying to convey to republicans, understanding him using that exact language . I dont know what he understands about his identity. Thats the issue. I dont know what he understands about that. What it sounds like hes doing is trying to create this view that the government is going after him and anybody that is like him ideologically. Its not a racial thing for him. For me, i do take it that way. I do take it racially because i understand the power of government. I understand the power of Government Agencies as they go in to go after African Americans. We talked extensively about criminal Justice Reform and Police Reform in that context. For him to use that, it sends one message to me. Its clearly sending a message to republicans to say that government will treat you just the same way, and we know it doesnt do that. He thinks he can win on that message and in that context. Rick, i want to acknowledge that you, me, basil, weve aid almost all of the republican candidates and the asterisk, just to make it plain, is Chris Christie. Take a listen to what he said about trumps prosecution this morning. I believe the keeping of those documents was a crime, and the obstruction was clearly a crime. Now the superseding indictment where he was ordering folks allegedly to delete the surveillance cameras, it reminded me of what maybe Abbott And Costello meets the corleones may have looked like. All of a sudden youve walt nauta as fredo to eliminate the server. This is both criminal and completely stupid, which is the combination that donald trump is bringing to the country. Its the combination of criminality and abject stupidity. Rick, i think part of the value of having Chris Christie say that is the answer can be plain. You hear a lot of the other gop hopefuls struggle with basic questions like did Joe Biden Win the 2020 election, where they have to go ten rounds before they finally say, yeah, okay, he did. To be able to lay it out that clearly from a republican, even if its not that Chris Christie is going to take over the gop field, it does create a really clear intraparty contrast. Well, youve got Chris Christie, asa hutchinson, will hurd, all of whom in varying degrees and capacities have criticized trump in some way. The problem for all of them is they are the tiniest minority inside the Republican Party, and the other problem for all of them so far has been that each of them says, if trump is the nominee, i will support him. It undercuts their case. It undercuts their moral argument. For Chris Christie who is a smart guy, who understands hes not going to win the nomination. I salute him for speaking the truth about trump, but he needs to take the next step and say hes morally unacceptable as a leader of our Political Party and i cannot support him in any circumstance for president , i will not vote for him. I know that takes him off the debate stage. Thats really the qualifier that all of them have been willing to swallow the poison pill and say, trump is a criminal, amoral, a dangerous, reckless, stupid, but i still wont vote for joe biden. Thats a case where theyre really not serious about winning this nomination or doing what they should do as american patriots who believe that donald trump is a danger to this country and our democracy and our republic and say they wont vote for him. Thats why they cant really break out of the pack. Thats why theres no rocket fuel behind any of these guys, because theyre still going to bend the knee to trump at the end. A multilane highway and theyre all right in the same lane, waiting for him to get out of it. When you talk about the debate stage, one of the other things that strikes me is that mike pence has now qualified for the debate stage. Presumably theres a question of whether or not trump will show up at the first debate. Putting that aside, youre going to have him former Vice President , a person who serving as a witness in one of his criminal investigations up on stage with him. We say an unusual moment, unprecedented moment. That visual itself is startling. First, lets acknowledge that its newsworthy that hes just qualified for this debate, which is amazing, right . A former Vice President is struggling to get attention. This is someone who was in my view a conservatives conservative. He is struggling to sort of make a name for himself in this context as a president ial candidate. That visual, as you say, should it ever come to that, would be amazing to watch. I imagine that trump, given what hes always done, will find ways to be dismissive of him, as hes been dismissive of other candidates in the past. I imagine he has enough support for it to stick. My thought, though, is for the grassroots of the Republican Party that are very engaged z in trumpism, theyll give him those checks. What are the big donors going to do . Will they say mike pence is our guy. We like Chris Christie, we let him be that attack dog, but mike pence represents everything we need to have represented in the next republican nominee. Are we going to get together and actually make this guy . Thats the one way you can actually give him the boost that hes probably not going to get on his own. By following that money. No one is going anywhere. Up next, well turn to democrats. Is Kamala Harris the campaigns secret weapon . Much more ahead. Do not go anywhere. Ore ahead. Do not go anywhere if you have Heart Disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. 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Tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including Botulinum Toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. See for yourself at botoxcosmetic. Com. President joe biden and i are determined to lead the most prounion administration in americas history. [ cheers and applause ] when Union Workplaces are safe, it makes all workplaces safer. When union wages go up, everybodys wages go up. And when unions are strong, and i say this as Vice President of the United States. When unions are strong, america is strong. [ cheers and applause ] that was Vice President Kamala Harris in philadelphia earlier today touting the impact of the administrations infrastructure bill. It is harris second visit to the key swing state in as many months as the Administration Seeks to expand her role ahead of the 2024 president ial election. Were back with rick and with basil. I think what is interesting here is the role she has played up until this point. Let me tell you how the New York Times puts it. They write, quote, harris has for years been saddled by criticism of her performance as Vice President , concern about her future spread as democrats ponder whether shell be a political liability for the ticket. Her recent moves are the latest attempt to silence those concerns and reclaim the momentum that propelled her to bidens side as a candidate and into the white house in 2020. How should they be using her . I never thought she was a drag on the ticket. But i did feel she was being underutilized. We saw her in the video, in bidens announcement video. That portends a much larger role both in the campaign and potentially in the second term. I hope that actually happens. If you listen to her justins of the State Legislators were expelled. If you even go back to the debate stage when she called out joe biden in 20 whatever that was 2019, 2020, in that debate about busing. From that moment on i said shes on it, shes got what she needs to be to be president of the United States, and in this role as Vice President she has the language and i think the presence to be a force for the ticket. I dont think as i said she was utilized in the way that she needed to be before, but if its going to happen it needs to happen now and help minimize whatever controversies or questions there are about biden as a candidate. I would add, rick, to basils list there of qualities of the Vice President a certain emotional resonance. I think of her taking down ron desantis when he demanded that she senate him about the merits of slavery. The work that you have seen her doing out there when it comes to womens bodily autonomy. She is a very strong messenger on some of these issues that democrats know are going to be motivating to their voters in the lead up to 2024. Look, i think she has been underutilized in the last couple years, but, you know, better late than never when you want to put another fighter on the field who is going to go out and talk to your base. This is the classic role of a Vice President ial candidate, to go out and rev up your base voters. The democrats need to rev up their base voters. They need to get their people enthused and energized and excited, and the most democratic administrations have traditionally not been great at bragging and telling their own story. Shes been out working on talking about the infrastructure bill, talking about the Inflation Reduction Act, talking about build back better. Talking about the things the administration is putting out there that are going to address the lives of everyday americans. And thats an extraordinarily good focus for her to have right now. You can see and as somebody who has trained a lot of people to do speech and debate and trained a lot of people to do presentation like this, shes improving by being at bat more often. We saw in 2020 she had a few times where she was formidable, and now i think shes getting time to go out there and be formidable for this administration. The point that you make there so important given the gap that we have seen between what this administration has done and what voters have given them credit for, thats the first glap they have gap they have to close. Thank you for spending time with us. Up next, a new National Monument near the grand canyon. President biden making that announcement today. We will tell you all about it coming up. Nouncementod tay we will tell you all about it coming up. Te to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis symptoms. With my Psoriatic Arthritis symptoms. But just ok isnt ok. And i was done settling. 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No matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. Talk to your Healthcare Provider today. President biden kicked off his threeday west coast tour today in arizona where he announced a new National Monument in order to safeguard more than one million acres of land around the grand canyon from mining. The National Monument declaration is hailed as a major victory for tribes who have been trying to protect the land for decades. He said he made the declaration to, quote, right the wrongs of the past and conserve this land of ancestral footprints for future generations. Its an election day in ohio, voters are deciding on an important proposal that could have huge impl kapgss for Abortion Rights. That story and more after this quick break. Rights. That story and more after this quick break. christina wanna know the secret ingredient to running my business . tina her. christina being all over, all at once. tina all the time. christina but my old network wasnt cutting it. 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It is not often you hear an elected representative call out the hypocrisy of his or her own Political Party but that is how bad things are right now in ohio. That was republican state representative Jamie Callender speaking with ali vitali about issue 1, the measure on ohio ballots today that will openly have huge implications for reproductive freedoms in the buckeye state. Lets rewind to january when Ohio Republicans voted to get rid of special elections in august saying they had low turnouts and were expensive. Then just months later when they saw a Ballot Initiative gaining traction that would enshrine Abortion Rights into the state constitution, republicans in the state reversed course and scheduled the special election that is taking place as we speak. So now this august election republicans were trying to doom the Reproductive Rights bill on the ballot by enacting issue 1 which would raise the threshold for support raised to pass state constitutional amendments to 60 instead of a simple majority. Its a measure republicans have openly admitted is about stopping the upcoming Abortion Rights amendment. A perfect example of if you cant win the game just change the rules. If you need more proof about why they want to raise the threshold to 60 , take a look, in recent polling which shows support for adding an Abortion Rights amendment to the states constitution is at, yeah, 58 . Novembers proposed amendment would counter ohios Heartbeat Bill which bans abortions after six weeks of pregnancy before most women know that they are pregnant. Currently it remains temporarily blocked by a state judge. Ohio republicans are scared for november, the direct Ballot Initiatives in six states including conservative ones like kentucky, like kansas, voters chose every time to protect womens Reproductive Rights. Nbc news reports, quote, raising the threshold for passage of any future constitutional amendments would mark a major shift in ohio. Where only a simple majority has been required since 1912. Several former Republican Office holders including four gop exgovernors have publicly opposed the measure. Polls in ohio close at 7 00. Polls in ohio close at 7 00. Give us your reaction to what is happening today in ohio, how republicans are resorting to changing the legislative rules because they know how much support this proposed amendment already had heading into november. Theyre trying to change the rules and theyre still going to lose. Thats whats remarkable about what were seeing in ohio. The early vote that were seeing is historic. Record early vote numbers for an august election, much like we saw in kansas last year. So it just seems extremist republicans are not learning their lessons about how americans and specifically in ohio how folks feel about abortion but also intertwined their democratic freedoms, fundamental freedoms like their ability to vote and keep that 50 threshold. I also want to note ohioans are widesing up to the fact that Secretary Of State Louisiana Rose and his cronies have received 82 of their funding for this effort has come from one Illinois Billionaire who has january 6 ties. So you just have to remember how fundamentally intertwined these rights are, these freedoms are and how smart voters are getting about it. Mini referenced enthusiasm, ohio seeing high turnout numbers for this election, reported 700,000 ohioans cast their vote early inperson or absentee ballot, compared to last august that was nearly seven times higher, three times higher when compared to the may 2022 primary. It is about what is happening in ohio, but it is more generally about what this issue or these issues, both the attacks on reproductive freedoms and the attacks on democracy mean to voters who are wondering about the future of this country. Absolutely. I think when the Supreme Court overturned Roe Versus Wade in the Dobbs Decision they said this should be left to democracy, should be left to the states. What we see is these antidemocratic efforts popping up in an effort to silence the populous about what they feel is right in terms of Reproductive Health. As you talked about in the six other Ballot Initiatives on this issue, even in conservative states, they have affirmed that women should have a right to choose in terms of their Reproductive Health. So instead of playing by those rules, what were seeing and what the Supreme Court predicted was absolutely wrong, in the sense that when it goes to the states instead of playing by the rules, State Legislatures, many of whom are incredibly gerrymandered that want to prevent the people from voting because when the people vote we see they want to protect womens Reproductive Health. This is what were seeing across the country. This isnt just about ohio, this idea of republicans saying, well, if we cant win the right way, then how about we just change the rules. That wasnt just donald trump, it wasnt just his cronies, it is the modern practice of this party. Right. Well, weve even this in the North Carolina legislature, we saw this in the wisconsin legislature. Whenever you have a state thats like Eking Towards Blueness or purple, you see a jerry manned erred Republican Legislature try to block peoples access to vote, change what the voting rules are, change the voting times. Sometimes it works, but occasionally if you get a universal issue like abortion, people get angry and then theyre going to turn out the vote and republicans show again because theyre not a party, they are a Dime Storefront for a terrorist organization at this point called maga, you basically see that the republicans over and over and over again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. They could have just been happy with the Dobbs Decision by a corrupt and highly influenced and basically completely dismissive Supreme Court at this point, but, no, they had to go further. Now theyve angered a bunch of people. Look, i used to teach in ohio, ive been in contact with former students there and people who generally dont care about voting and certainly dont care in august were all turning out to vote. Why . Because nobody likes it when their rights are being snatched away. One other important thing to mention because i think people need to understand this, its not just that the rule is saying, hey, should it be harder to add a constitutional amendment, there are other elements to this issue 16789 it was going to eliminate a curing period where basically if you did have enough petitions out to put something on the ballot, you got an extra ten days to replace names that may have been dismissed. They were going to get rid of that, too. They were basically going to make it impossible to have Citizen Initiatives to change the constitution. That is why this is blowing up in the gops face. I wish more people would turn out in general elections and get rid of the legislatures that do this, but this is another example of an organization thats no longer a party and operates more like a cult and a religious cult than an actual representation of Policy Preferences of the people. I want to underscore something that jason said there which is weve heard a lot about this 60 threshold, but there are other elements to this that are particularly nefarious. So it does increase the Voting Threshold for constitutional amendments, also makes new requirements for Ballot Initiatives to qualify, it would require signatures from each of the states 88 counties up from 44 where it stands now. So it is doubling that. I guess it all sounds tedious, if it all sounds bureaucratic, if were trying our best to explain it in a way that is not that is by design, right . Their hope was that if it seemed like they were just tinkering on the margins with the process that people would not be able to connect the dots and understand that what they were actually doing was trying to take away basic rights. Yeah, i think that activism is what were seeing as a response to these attempts to change the rules. And i think thats whats really been surprising, i think, for the Republican Party is these are things that people care about and believe are a part of our core individual rights in this country, and that means that we are willing, as voters, to go to the lengths that we need to, including meeting some of these very extreme measures. So this would be terrible if it passes, it looks like it wont, but the idea, for example, that you are raising to a very High Percentage and i think its 5 of voters that you need to get to even get a Ballot Initiative on to on to the ballot for a constitutional amendment, those kinds of changes in the rule really do impact the voice of the people and the basic bedrock principles of democracy and we have to be extremely concerned about attempts to change the rules in the way that the Ohio Legislature is attempting to change them that the republicans in the Ohio Legislature are attempting to change them. Mini, lets come back to what is driving all of this, what is driving all of this has to do with Abortion Rights in the state of ohio and i want to read to you from an oped in the New York Times it calls what republicans are doing in ohio one of their most brazen schemes. Quote, the episode should serve as a reminder that despite the Supreme Courts claim, the dobbs merely returned the question of abortion to the states, for opponents of abortion allowing the residents of each state to decide this issue for themselves was never the goal, at least not in the long term. Instead the longterm goal is to prohibit abortion as widely and as completely as possible. Thats the reason some states have refused to include exceptions for rape or incest in their postdobbs abortion laws. Despite broad Popular Support for such skpepgss. Its why some states are seek to go penalize travel to other states to obtain abortions and end access to Medication Abortion throughout the country. I mean, it is laid bare here, mini. They said dont worry about it, if you live in a state where voters want this, you dont have to worry twice about t you do. You do, both because they dont actually want the right to be accessible and because even if you live in a very, very blue state where this is not an issue, you are still having women from all those other states traveling into your state in order to access care and that impacts the quality of care that you are able to get in your blue state. Talk to me about the stakes of what we are seeing in ohio both for the women of ohio, but also all across this country. So when you put up the polling for the november Ballot Initiative on the Ballot Referendum on reproductive freedom i wanted to note in addition to 58 of Ohioness Supporting Reproductive Freedom that includes a third of the gop and 85 of independent women in the state. That is really remarkable. There was National Polling that came out today that showed a clear majority of americans support Abortion Access without restrictions and exemptions. Thats a brandnew historic high. So, look, i mean, we are in a moment right now historically in this country where we know extremists have gone too far, they have its been significant overreach. Were hearing Horror Stories from states with bans, folks in blue states like this california passed their own Ballot Initiative in the midterms to protect Abortion Access in their constitution for precisely this reason. Thats why youre seeing more and more states move in this direction. When they sent it to the states they didnt bargain on the fact that the states were going to fight back and voters were going to realize particularly republicans and independents how tragic and horrifying the situation is. It is exciting in some ways to see folks wake up to the abortion crisis this this country but its also horrifying to understand its in response to some extremely egregious bans that have really created devastation in parts of our country like my home State Of Texas and possibly in ohio if this doesnt go the right way. You talked about the republicans and independents that mini just referenced. Part of what you saw in kentucky, in kansas, was that there might be voters who dont necessarily think of themselves as being pro choice or pro Abortion Rights, but they looked at what was happening in their states, what was being proposed in their states and said, this is extreme Government Overreach and i, as a conservative voter, Cannot Support Extreme Government Overreach, and this is where you see republicans getting out ahead of themselves. Thats right. And in our focus groups and in our research and even from organizers on the ground in ohio who i have talked to, theyre talking to republicans who are saying this feels like statesanctioned torture. This feels like overreach. I didnt sign up for this. This isnt the Republican Party i support. I think thats really important to understand in this polling, the Human Stories behind the shift in the American Public opinion on this issue. Now that folks see the devastation that bans create, they understand that bans with exceptions dont work and they want the most fundamental freedoms protected from their states and at the federal level. It feels like a through line that runs through so many issues, i was very struck when i was doing reporting in the field during these past midterms, i would be in parking lots with voters as theyre trying to get from work to the Grocery Store and back home again and in the few minutes you get with them part of what they would say is this party has just become too extreme. Its too extreme. That was the line that i heard over and over again. It might not be about any one specific issue, but that in the aggregate what they felt was that the Republican Party had become unrecognizable to them. So as we watch what is going to happen tonight in ohio, we care because we care about the people of ohio, but there are bigger messages and lessons that we can extrapolate out as we look forward to 2024. Well, look, this is the lesson that we learned in 2016, right, the famous 52 or 50 plus percent of white women who didnt vote for hillary clinton, right, and its like these same women turned around and said we want Abortion Rights protected but then you got donald trump. We have large numbers of people in this country who keep voting against their own interest and they answer every poll and say, hey, Abortion Rights are important to me but they keep voting for republicans. This is the person who is like, hey, im really trying to get in shape but every time you see them theyre at mcdonalds. You dont really care about getting in shape if you keep spending your money at mcdonalds. You dont really care about abortion if you keep voting for legislators and governors and senators and states attorneys and everybody else like that who make it very clear from the very beginning theyre going to snatch your rights away. Even though this will be a victory in ohio and weve seen them in other places its not a real victory. Because the voters who are supported this are going to go right back to the polls and vet for those same republicans. Until those people recognize that the republicans arent just extreme on particular issues, but they have devolved into a cult that does not want women to have any agency, that does not want poor people and black people and brown people to be able to vote. Until that group of people recognizes, until that 85 of independents are like, wait a minute, the republicans do this all the time, were going to see issues like this happening over and over again. Thats what frustrates me about this, nicolle, because as freight its going to be that this bill gets shot down a lot of the same people will vote gop. It is alicia mendez, but anytime you confuse me for nicolle wallace, it is a good day. Dr. Jason johnson, im going to take that one to the bank. Danielle, im going to be watching tonight at 7 30. The numbers will roll in and were going to try to parse them out. For you what is it you are going to be looking for, what is sort of going to be the tell not only about what it is that happened in ohio, but what it portends for 2024 . I think whats so interesting to me about this whole process after the end of Roe Versus Wade is the way that its made citizens of this country and especially young people, being a College President i see on our College Campuses the way the young people are engaged in democracy in a way that we have not seen in a long time. Thats what i will be watching for is exactly what we heard at the beginning is if this fails, will it send a message to other legislatures that want to upend democratic principles to help to put down peoples individual rights like Reproductive Health, will they learn a lesson from this . Will they realize that they cant trick people into giving up their rights, and that when the Supreme Court said wrongly that this should be decided on a state by state basis instead of protected as an individual constitutional right, did they really light a fire that now cant be put out . And i think thats what im looking for. Is this question of is this the issue that engages people in a way that we have not seen engagement in democracy in quite a while, and i think thats what is, you know gives me hope about this issue is the idea that it is a way for us to engage in direct democracy. A little more than two hours before polls close. Mini, danielle, thank you both so much for getting us started. Jason, you are sticking with me. When we return, another extreme republican crusade against abortion and this represents a risk to National Security. The pentagons policy has left this country without representation in two branches of the National Security. Desantis keep digging in as voters and big donors moving on. Today the Florida Governor has made his Biggest Campaign shake up yet. The ethical drips of lapses in the Supreme Court, there is new questions about Justice Clarence thomas, his rv and who paid for it. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Like my morning ride, will it help lower my glucose . With the freestyle libre 2 system, you can know where your Glucose Level is and where its headed without fingersticks. Know what activities work for you. Manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. Ask your doctor about the freestyle libre 2 system. Its covered by medicare for those who qualify. Visit freestylelibre. Us medicare to learn more. My cpa told me i wouldnt qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. Their team of independent Tax Attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. 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Unfortunately, today for the first time in the history of the Department Of Defense two of our services will be operating without Senate Confirmed leadership. In our dangerous world the security of the United States demands orderly and prompt transitions of our confirmed military leaders. That was Secretary Of Defense lloyd austin on the chilling news that the u. S. Army no longer has a Senate Confirmed leader making it the Second Branch of the military after the marines all because of alabama senator tommy tuber vils continued hold on military promotions. He has maintained his hold due to the dislike of the militarys policy on abortion assess. They have sounded the alarm on the impact of the holds on our nations Military Readiness. In a report by cnn that nbc news has not been able to confirm Secretary Austin wrote a memo calling for extraordinary measures to be taken in order to mitigate the impact on Military Readiness. Quote, austin wrote that the unprecedented across the board hold is having a cascading effect, increasingly hindering the normal operations of this department and undermining both our Military Readiness and our National Security. As a result austin recommended a series of steps to try to mitigate the impact of the blockade that includes in extraordinary cases assigning lowerlevel officers to lead organizations in an acting capacity. The senator responded to those life or death concerns via social media last week, with his trademark eloquence. Quote, my holds are not affecting National Security. Lets bring in Iraq War Veteran and Chief Executive Officer of iraq and afghanistan veterans of american ellison. Lay out for our viewers what this means for Military Readiness and what the stakes are here. Well, Secretary Austin already put it the cascading effects of having top leadership positions not only unfilled by having Senate Confirmed leadership, but the just relative uncertainty srnd this causes uncertainty from the top down which is just not good. We need our force focused and ready to fight when confronted by a threat. We dont need to be having them deal with what our politics is doing to them these days. On a micro level, too, these are individual peoples lives. There are officers who earn promotions, who deserve the rank with knows promotions and candidly the paycheck that comes along with it and one senators personal political agenda is getting in the way of that and thats just wrong. Politico wrong about the security in the persian gulf, force right side in high alert. The u. S. Is sending war ships, fighter jets and even considering Station Thing armed troops aboard civilian vessels to protect mariners, yet two of the top Senior Officers overseeing the escalating situation arent where theyre supposed to be. The Promotion Standoff is affecting the Military Command Structure in the middle east just as tensions in that part of the world are flaring up. Republicans have put themselves forward as the party of National Security for years. At what point do you expect them to blink . I think there are probably other republican senators who are on the side of National Security. I think the challenge here is they are not stepping up to a member of their own caucus and helping him see the error of his ways. I think that there are democrats and republicans that want to see the healthiest force possible, to see a strong National Security strategy and unfortunately antics like this are getting squarely in the way of that. Jason, i want to get your take. Quote, because military members do not choose their own postings, many of which are the states hostile to Abortion Access, the pentagon in february began to offer paid time off and travel reimbursement for Service Members and their dependents who need abortions. Tuberville a former College Football coach who has no expertise in the military or Reproductive Health with no skin in the game other than going a runofthemill antiabortion right winger decided to take a stand and now more than 300 military promotions have been held up because of him. I saw your gesture as i was reading that. Tell me what you think. This is terrorism. To me or jason . I keep telling people this is legislative terrorism. Okay . This guy, tuberville, one senator, is endangering the National Security of our country and our allies for ideological reasons. He is putting people in positions where they can die. Not just the people who wont have access to health care, but our military services around the world that dont just defend our people, but defend our allies are now in danger because of one person. And its not just one person as far as tuberville and his particular ideology, it is the entire Republican Organization because if this actually mattered to them, if they cared about this country, if they cared about our safety then every other word out of Mitch Mcconnells mouth would be, and, by the way, tommy tuberville, you know, get off the chair, you have to do something here, youre harming all of us, ted cruz would be saying something, josh holly, but none are saying anything because they dont care about america. I hope the democrats see this as an opportunity not just for Campaign Purposes but changing some of the rules in how the senate operates because hes endangering the country for an organization that is no longer committed to National Security. Nikki haley did just come out criticizing these holds, we will see if anyone follows their lead. Thank you for sending so much time with us. Ahead, a big shakeup for ron desantis as his socalled war on woke has become a big turnoff to voters and donors alike, but hes out there doubling down on some of the worst of it. N some of the bworst of it. christina wanna know the secret ingredient to running my business . tina her. christina being all over, all at once. tina all the time. christina but my old network wasnt cutting it. And thats not good for baking. Or judging. Or writing. So, we switched to verizon, the Network Businesses rely on. With Verizon Business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. So, No Matter What, im running this kitchen. vo make the switch. Its your business. Its your verizon. When moderate to Severe Ulcerative Colitis takes you off course. Put it in check with rinvoq, a oncedaily pill. 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Today another shakeup to Florida Governor ron desantis 2024 president ial campaign. He is replacing his campaign manager, another sign of a rough first three months, driven in part by desantis own failing bet on his war on wokeness, which he promised to bring to the white house. The Financial Times reports the latest blows to desantis fundraising, two more Billionaire Donors dropping him over his, quote, severe abortion position and his fight with disney. Also not sitting well with former republican governors and lawmakers who filed a brief in disneys federal lawsuit against desantis according to the ap calling his autocratic retaliation against disney, quote, severely damaging to the political, social and economic fabric of florida. For his part desantis doesnt seem bothered enough to change course, he is still on track to drive his campaign into the ground. Here he is with nbcs dasha burns, again, defending the widely criticized outrageous new requirement for middle schoolteachers in his state to instruct that in some cases slavery was beneficial. So that means they developed skills in spite of slavery not because of slavery. It was them showing resourcefulness and then using those skills. If this was a different state and the governor wasnt running for president no one would have said anything about that. Yeah, i think we would have. Joining our conversation david jolly. Jason is still with us. Lets take this in two parts. Lets talk about the Campaign Reboot and then lets talk about the fact that hes not actually learning a lesson understanding, david, these two things very much happened in tandem. You can switch up your leadership, but if youre not willing to fundamentally change as a candidate im not sure thats going to be the magic that youre looking for. Thats right, alicia, ron desantis problem is not his staff its the candidate, its himself. I know that because i know several of the people in Florida Politics who are working for them and theyre exceedingly talented staffers and campaign strategists, theyre just working with a terrible candidate and that is why youre hitting the ceiling. This conversation about how woke has its ceiling and its limitations even in the Republican Party, i think one of the reasons, despite all the substantive debate around his war on woke is it just exudes bad faith, right, the war on migrants by doing the Marthas Vineyard stunt, reaching into texas and shipping them, just shows bad faith. Its not a constructive way to address immigration. The War On Trans Youth and trying to intervene with a medical counsel youth get is bad faith. The war on Voting Rights is bad faith because there is not a policy agenda pursuing equity. I think that is why this ethos of ron desantis is hitting such a challenge. He is seen as somebody that continues to act in bad faith in these culture wars and on Critical Issues of race and equity, ron desantis appears determined to just run for the white house to represent white america. That now six months into this is basically his brand, its not working. Jason, your shrug really just said it all there. Look, you know, a reboot is going from like christian bail batman to ben affleck, right, or going from ben affleck to thats a reboot, thats a brandnew guy at the top. If its the same jerk under the mask you are not repoogt anything. Theres no reboot in in campaign. He is everything he looks as bad as john mccain looked in early 2008 except like worse because at least john mccain was norm nael charismatic occasionally under certain circumstances. Ron desantis is nothing more than a Florida Media creation. All of the antitrump republicans were hoping, hoping that this florida guy, i dont know how they didnt learn their lesson from previous florida failures, everybody was hoping he would be substantive. Hes mean, hes surly, hes not charismatic. He walked around in high white thigh boots which everybody thought was hilarious and attacked disney which is one of the stupidest things you can do when millions of families across america of all colors, all shapes and all ideologies watch the disney app every day. Im not surprised any failings in his campaign and i think out of pure unadulterated ego he might make it to iowa but hes going to be in fifth and sixth place behind donald trump and will probably drop out before he gets to florida. I want to be clear, were not sitting here just having a conversation about politics, were not just having a conversation about the horse race. Were having a conversation about the fact that the things that he is pushing forward as policies, the things that he is messaging around, that all seeps into the ether whether or not he wins or he loses, right . So he also was doubling down in that interview with dasha burns on his proposal to use deadly force against migrants suspected of smuggling drugs across the border. I want you to take a listen to how that Exchange Went for him. Anyone thats hostile intent or hostile act which the cartels are, you know, you would then engage with lethal force. How do you know you but do see that. Its the same way you would do in any situation. Same way a Police Officer would know, some way somebody operating in iraq would know. These people in iraq at the time they all looked the same you didnt know who had a bomb strapped to them so these guys have to make judgments. So putting aside this bigger question, david, of how we should be reimagining our border to be a place where we can Exchange Ideas and commodities and people, you know, should have an orderly process, a humane process for being able to enter this country and establish their asylum claim. The absurdity of the fact that he has remade himself in Donald Trumps image and then taken some of these cruel and barbaric policies and make them more absurd, such that were not actually solving for any core problem. We are not saying how do we make our immigration system, for example, work for this country, but rather were going to put armed guards on the border and have them shooting at people who are not clear to us whether their intent is to apply for asylum in this country because they are a mom or a dad or whether they are someone who has nefarious intent. Thats right, alicia. Along the way slit the throats of federal workers that he thinks arent necessary to the function of government. Look, ron desantis, i stand by my statement of a few months ago, a uniquely dangerous figure on the political stage. Donald trump and ron desantis within the primary i believe are uniquely dangerous to our country and to our cull tree and to the constitution. The rest of the republican candidates ideological provide a challenge certainly to those with strong progressive convictions but we know what donald trump is willing to do to shred the constitution. Ron desantis appears willing to do the same, but theres a different tone to it. Culture wars have victims and so when hes attracting the migrant community, the dpleen owe phobia is apparent, when hes attacking and denying ak whit to black americans the racism is apparent, when hes taking on the Trans Community his homophobia is apparent. There is nothing about his policies that lift all people up. Even republicans, the most conservative republicans who try to deny equity through conservative policy making they at least have a proposal for how they intend to achieve it, even if its easy to criticize their proposals. Thats not ron desantis. He has unleashed within some of the darkest elements within todays Republican Party and given a permission structure to dangerous cultural themes that both could elicit violence but also take the country back 50 years. To those dangerous themes, jason, he is not willing to stand up for democracy. He struggled with it, did eventually admit in that interview that trump lost the 2020 election, but he also suggested that the election was, quote, perfect. Right . So theres still a little bit of this trying to have his trump and eat it, too, not really being able to be honest with his voters about what happened in 2020 and whats ahead for 2024. And we also have to look at the fact that he is engaging in massive Voter Suppression in his own state. In a way he was right, it wasnt a completely Fair Election in large part because governors like desantis and brian kemp and in ohio and other places were keeping large numbers of people from actively voting. Here is the thing, nicolle i said it i have known you for ten years. Alicia. Here is the thing thats really important, i cant stress enough how we have to Pay Attention to not just the cultural arguments that ron desantis is making but the Dangerous Things that hes allowing to be experimented on in Public Schools in the state of florida. And that is something that really frightens me because even though i dont think hes going to be a candidate, allowing the prayinger institute and all these places to poison the minds of young children, to teach them a history that has no relation to what is actually happened in this country, i watched one of the videos yesterday where they had an animated Frederick Douglass basically talking about the importance of incrementism and how not to be super aggressive within youre trying to end slavery. That is the danger. That is the legacy of ron desantis. That is what i worry about because even after he fails there will be too many governors and too many legislatures and too many members of congress who think these ideas are okay and that damages an entire generation of young people who will be forced to vote without truly knowing American History over the next 10 to 20 years. To say nothing of his Election Police force who succeeded in doing nothing other than catching floridians in the act of trying to parse nate in our democracy. Dr. Jason johnson, as always thank you for spending time with us. David jolly, you are sticking with me. Breaking news to tell you about in the case against donald trump and his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. We are back with that next. Overturn the 2020 election we are back with that next this is your summer to smile. To raise your glass and reconnect. To reel in the fun and savor every bite. To help you get ready breaking news to tell you elebrating breaking news to tell you 25 years of Affordable Care with an epic summer of smiles event. Dont miss enjoying a moment, with our onsite labs to help you, fast, and 20 off your denture care. So, whether you need a new look or a quick fix, you can celebrate with a smile all season always at aspen dental. Book today. Known as a passionate artist. Known for loving the outdoors. 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We have some breaking news to tell you about on the story we mentioned at the top of the program. Judge Tanya Chutkan has set a hearing for this friday, august 11th, 10 00 a. M. To hash out the Justice Departments request for protective order, setting rules on how evidence in jack smiths election probe should be handled. Lets bring in msnbc legal analyst lisa rubin, david jolly is back with us. Lisa, after all that back and forth we finally have a date, august 11th. What can we expect to happen . Were going to expect the parties to go back and forth about their respective positions. Alicia, you know that the Special Counsels office has essentially said to judge chutkan that all discovery in this case should be covered by a protective order by default because donald trump is a person who cant be entrusted with Sensitive Information and he is likely to engage in the same sort of witness intimidation or even jury pool tampering that he has done in prior litigations. The trump folks for their part say this is overbroad, it interferes with the president s First Amendment rights, but in particular one of the things that they wanted to cut out of the protective order should be a red flag for us. Its any witness statements, transcripts or materials shown to people outside that grand jury process, and trump wants to tweet about it and talk about it and name those witnesses. That should be of person to us because those are the kind of witnesses who are most likely to have been cooperative with or to have proffered and given statements outside the grand jury to the Special Counsels office. So im interested in hearing what judge chutkan has to say on friday when she convenes them all. Lisa, do you think we can expect trumps recent comments to come into play at this hearing on friday . I do. You know, trump was on the trail today and our colleague Vaughn Hillyard heard him say i will not obey this order. Not only should that be of concern to trumps own counsel, you cant exactly witness your client promise to violate a court order and do nothing, but that will likely be of concern to judge chutkan. Both she and the Special Counsels office are trying hard not to have too fast a confrontation with trump who, as we know, will fund raise off this, accuse the biden Justice Department of targeting him, of course, we know its not the biden Justice Department thats doing this, but anything he can do to say that this process is unfair, he will say. On the other hand, do i think she can ignore this . No, i dont think she can and i think she will directly squarely touch on it with him on friday. David jolly, it strikes me that weve seen the Trump Legal Team sort of cook up this First Amendment defense for him as it relates to the case overall, but then you also have him out on the campaign trail saying, forget about this protective order, im going to say what i want to say because it is my First Amendment right to do so. And as you and i have discussed this in as much as that as weve discussed, in as much as thats not a legal argument, it is meant as a legal argument in the court of public opinion. It is meant as a political argument to his followers in order to muddy the waters. Thats right, alicia. In a party that embraces alternative facts perhaps it works for donald trump but it will not work in front of this judge. As quickly as weve seen now this motion for a protective order, the hearing to be set, and where we see donald trump going with his personal behavior, it does appear this case uniquely is going to continue to create a more and more restrictive environment on donald trump, and it feels as though put him closer to having his own freedom in jeopardy, his own status pretrial in jeopardy. And that then translates to kind of a deeper gravity to this j 6 case and this particular judge than the others. We thought the documents case was easy to understand. You could feel it, touch it, it was clear. This one, though, has the weight of history on it. As donald trump continues to challenge this judge and challenge the special prosecutor with his own behaviors, it does appear donald trump is going to find himself in a more restrictive environment legally. Lisa, rubin, texted early see you thursday, i think we tempted the breaking news gods. David jolly, thanks to you. Quick break for us. 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The administrations rules clarify that ghost guns fit within the definition of firearm under federal law, meaning that the government has the power to regulate them in the same way it regulates traditional firearms. Another quick break. Well be right back. fan 1 there ya go thats what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors nfl sunday ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. Switch now and theyll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. hero fan this plan is amazing josh allen another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. fan 1 that was josh allen. fan 2 mmhm. vo for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy s23. Only on verizon. More shopping . You should watch your spending honey. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. 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Jack smith is working ahead with these probes, these investigations, other investigative techniques, even as he prepares for what we expect to be two trump trials. A grand jury reconveing today, the panel that returned an indictment for trump against the coup. And this comes after investigators interviewed someone ive spoken to about cr