Transcripts For MSNBCW American 20240704

Jail for several years for counterfeiting one vote. If they try to vote illegally once, he tried to steal the entire election. And his lawyers out there are saying that its just a matter of him expressing his First Amendment rights. And that is deranged. That is a deranged argument. Trumps lawyers also making the case that mike pence will be the defenses, quote, best witness. Today on cnn, pence contradicted lauras take on the Pressure Campaign to block the certification of president bidens election victory. What President Trump did not do is direct Vice President pence to do anything. He asked him in an aspirational way, asking is covered by the First Amendment. In the days before the president was talking about us rejecting votes. And then late in the process, his lawyers suggested that we return votes to the states. But frankly, the day before january 6th, if memory serves, they came back, his lawyers did, and said we want you to reject votes outright. They were asking me to overturn the election. I had no right to overturn the election. What we are seeing from trumps legal team is a media blitz often aimed at selling political arguments over mounting a sound legal defense. And even when they, try they contradict themselves in court. Lauro spent a lot of times this weekend making the rounds on tv while trumps legal team demanded more time to or respond to the governments motion friday, seeking a protective order to keep trump from publicly disclosing some of the evidence in the case. Saturday afternoon, the federal judge overseeing the case rejected that request from trumps team. The judge says the schedule sticks, they have until five pm monday to respond. Kicking us off this sunday, msnbc legal analyst and former u. S. Attorney joyce vance, shes also the cohost of the hashtag sistersinlaw podcast. And msnbc political analyst and former florida congressman david jolly. Its great to see you both. Joyce, i want to know what you should expect when it comes to tomorrows court deadline. Trump will now have to file a response and will have to engage with the government on whether or not they should have a protective order in this case. Thats a pretty cut and dry sort of an issue. Trump is not entitled to take much of the discovery. He will be receiving. Itll include information that is personally identifying for some of these witnesses. Much of it will be grand jury information, which of course is required by law to remain secret. And so they can quibble about the terms of the order, but in some way, shape, or form the judge will put a protective order in place before any discovery changes hands in this case. Joyce, trumps lawyer also had this to say about violating the constitution. Take a listen. Vice president pence is an attorney. If he had any point side or thought that mr. Trump, President Trump was acting unlawfully or contrary to criminal law, he wouldve said that. No one ever suggested that. President trump actually, he has said that. He said the president asked him to violate the constitution. He said the president asked him to violate the constitution it, which is another way of saying he asked him to break the law. No, thats wrong. Thats wrong. A technical violation of the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. That is just plain wrong. And to say that is contrary all, right joyce, i want to know you make of that whole exchange, but specifically this argument that a technical violation of the constitution might not be a crime. So it is a tough job being a criminal defense lawyer. You can only work with the fact that actually exist, and so mr. Laura here is trying to make an argument that is really much more an argument for the court of public opinion. It is the sort of argument we are used to hearing from trump. Nothing to look at here. They are making it up. But there are some cases where a violation of the constitution also violates criminal law. And were looking at one right here. This notion that you can steal an election that youve lost, that you can violate peoples Constitutional Rights to vote and just walk away saying, nothing to look at here, thats just nonsense. It is sort of made for television kind of argumentation. Okay, to that point, congressman jolly, that is a lot of their legal arguments, right . I sit here with attorneys, i play back the trump teams legal arguments, all of our incredibly impressive lawyers and legal analysts thats say thats not actually a thing. So then i, as a political analyst, have to believe that some of this is not even based in the idea that it will succeed in a court of law, but rather is aimed at succeeding in a court of public opinion. Let me give you a list, from the First Amendment defense overall seems to be, that it seems to be a thing they want people sitting around the Kitchen Table being, like they are violating his First Amendment rights. This whole idea of we need as much time to get ready for this case as jack smith had to begin to prepare this case. First of all, the math is beyond fuzzy on, that but that is again not based in any legal framework. And then this idea of a technicality. As joyce just laid out, it can only lead me to believe that this is all meant as a political argument, not a legal argument. You are exactly right. Political arguments that support Donald Trumps ultimate strategy, which is to seek absolution through the political process for his likely accountability hes going to be held to in the criminal justice process. Be heldits a twisted way to t. But as joy said, when you really dont have the legal arguments on your side, then you have to look elsewhere. This is going to test our constitutional system because, look, if he was just a former president who had been charged and was facing these charges in court, there would be some closure to, it one way or another, he would be convicted or acquitted. But hes also now a candidate and is making this political argument. This simply does not hold in a court of law. They are going to find that out. Two things are clear. Alicia, in this first week, since the arraignment, it appears mike pence is ready to go adverse to donald trump, to turn on donald trump and to say trump told me to do, this dont take any other argument. That is kind of a fascinating turn for mike pence. I think he will equivocate, we can expect him to. But the second is this notion of a protective order. The idea that somehow donald trump is going to be able to avoid pretrial detention between now and the trial is just becoming less and less likely. I think we could be in a scenario where the unknown does happen, where donald trump faces a loss of liberty of freedom ahead of the trial. Joyce, i want you to weigh in on that, the likelihood of that. If you are listening to all these arguments, trumps legal team is making, any glimmers of the case that they actually do End Up Making in court as their defense . Ill take the second part first. There are some legal arguments that can be made here. Prosecutors have to prove, for instance, on the conspiracy accounts that donald trump entered into a conspiracy. That seems obvious here, but its appropriate for the defense to put the government to its proof on that issue, on intent to join a conspiracy. We will begin to see those sorts of arguments shaping up. And i think to davids, point he is just dead on the money that trump, in these first few days, has shown such an inability to comply with the terms of pre trial release, that every other defendant in a criminal case has to comply with. It is tough to contemplate where this is headed. For instance, you cannot commit any new or additional crimes. The judge admonished him about that in court during the arraignment. He hasnt crossed that line yet, but its not tough to contemplate that that could happen. And heres the problem that the court will face and the prosecutors will face, jack smith wants to takes his case to trial. He does not want to let anything happen that could delay that Straight Line chance he sees. If you get into a situation where you are litigating with a defendant about whether he violated his terms of pre trial release, that custody, then the First Amendment issues piled on top of that in trumps case, that all adjusts Special Counsel singleminded purpose of going straight to trial. I think we will see them try to avoid these sort of sand traps along the road and just drive straight for the hole in one. A dramatic way to delay indeed. I want to ask you, joyce, Trump S Lawyer declaring today that mike pence will be trumps best witness. A lot of bluster or something there . Well, you have to bluster, i, think when you are in that position as a defense lawyer. Look, mike pence seems to have find a bit of backbone thats been missing up until now. In the words of the Special Counsels indictment, just how far that goes, what his testimony looks like remains to be seen. He did say today that he had kept some very limited notes about his conversations with his former boss on his calendar. We havent seen those yet, but those will be turned over to trump in the course of discovery. They will possibly be evidence used at trial to backup what mike pence is now saying. But there is a lot here that you can attack as a defense lawyer. And so when they say trumps their best friend, they essentially mean that they will be able to eat him alive on cross examination, that he wont be a strong in court as he appeared to be today. That remains to be seen. I always enjoy it joyce when you give me the behind the scenes of what it means to be a Defense Attorney in this case. David, if we just unpack part of the trump defense, its that he chose to believe Conspiracy Theorists over his own experts. That is what they are out there arguing, putting aside the sort of legal piece of that. What does it say about his fitness to serve as someone who is currently the gop front runner for the president ial nomination if his worldview is, im going to listen to the Conspiracy Theorists, not the people actually in the know . This has been a theme since donald trump came on the stage and would engage in behaviors and people would say i think its criminal or extraconstitutional. There was a theory that he was too stupid to commit crime. You are seeing a version of that in that, that he is too stupid to actually conspire to do this. But that actually brings in the legal argument, joyce, something in the realm of willful ignorance. You cant simply continued to say i was told by 100 people, but i still didnt understand or i think 100 people were wrong. I think legally it doesnt change much. But to your point, i think he is still the likely nominee. If he goes to jail, this is one of those moments, alicia and i, you and i talk about, its that turning point. Its an unknown. If he ends up in pretrial detention, we dont know. Today, he is still the likely nominee. Which means the republican nominee is going to be somebody with a theory of his entire presidency is he is just too stupid to go to jail. He is too stupid to commit a crime. Thats a hard spot for the gop to be in. But it is a great poll ad to run. You are both sticking with. Me up next, all eyes on georgia as we await another possible indictment against donald trump. Plus, to debate or not debate. Rather than focus on his legal challenges, the policies for the american people, trump is making a game of taking the stage in milwaukee. And later, why advocates are saying officials are playing politics with helping those seeking asylum in New York City. But first with richard lui the stories we are watching this hour. Very good evening to you. Floodwaters are receding now in juneau, alaska, after a glacial outburst led to unprecedented flooding there in the Mendenhall River crist it at nearly 15 feet saturday. Reports suggest at least two homes were destroyed. Authorities urge residents to stay away from the area due to the debris left behind. A Train Derailment in pakistan sunday at leaving at least 30 people dead and several others injured. The Hazara Express went off the tracks into southern parts of pakistan. The cause is under investigation. And the u. S. Womens soccer team was eliminated from the world cup. Theyre lost to sweden on Penalty Kicks was in the round of 16. It is the worst finish for the usa in the history of the womens world cup. More American American voices for you right after this break. After this break all learning to save and spend their money with chase. The chefs cooking up firsts with her new debit card. Hungry . Uhuh. The designers eyeing sequins. Uh no plaid. While mom is eyeing his spending. 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What he was asking for is for raffensperger to get to the truth, he believed there were an excess of 10,000 votes that were counted illegally. What he was asking for is the Secretary Of State to act appropriately and find these votes that were counted illegally. That wasnt aspirational ask. Hes entitled to petition even state government. But that doesnt involve an obstruction of federal government. Joyce vance is back with us. Joining us, msnbc political contributor greg, he is a political reporter for the atlanta journalconstitution, and hes going to be very busy in the next few weeks. Joyce, understanding sort of anytime i tossed a sound and ask you about it, its a very hard job defending anyone is a difficult job, defending this person in particular is a difficult job. But does the law care whether the former president s demands were, quote, aspirational . I think that that is not a term that will come into the legal considerations here. What folks will look at if this case goes to a jury on charges related to the situation is what was going on here. Was this a legitimate request . Or was this someone asking for help from a state official and stealing an election . The facts are so compelling, the ask is for just one more vote that is needed to overcome trumps loss in the state. There is this entire back and forth where he is alternately threatening and then encouraging the Secretary Of State to help him out. You know, if you dont do this, you could be committing a crime. Come on, just help me out here. I only need votes. This plays awfully well for a jury if you are the prosecution. I think from the moment that we all heard this audio tape, we knew that this was criminal conduct. Right. And weve heard it so many times since the his office has spent months preparing for a trump indictment, i want you to take a listen and we will talk on the other side. Were very proactive, we had an opportunity to watch send teams, major butler in his team to new york and an opportunity to send them to miami. What we learned in miami is that we need to have a secure perimeter, that is just the beginning of the program. What more can you tell us about the Security Protocols in place and if you can the timeline for charges here . Security barricades are up in front of the courthouse, roads are closed, many staffers are already working from home virtually. And they are already taking precautions. Judges and other courthouse officials have been told months ago that this could be coming within the window that began a few days ago through the end of this month. And we are still on dak, we are still looking for these charges over the next two, weeks likely in mid august. Greg, you were at a rally for georgia democrats yesterday. As someone who literally wrote the book on how georgia has moved toward being purple, your sense of why georgia democrats havent been taken they are seeing with President Joe Biden is doing and what other National Democrats are doing. Youre not hearing a lot of Democratic Candidates or politicians speaking at length extensively about these indictments, these legal problems. First, if they dont want to play into the republicans hands of accusing democrats of somehow collaborating with the Justice Department and politicizing this prosecution. Secondly, they are focused on issues, health care, education, the economy. The issues that we saw in the last election really dominated voters moods, the voters narratives, abortion, gun rights, these will motivate particularly liberal voters in georgia, they are focusing on right now with an eye towards 2024. Joyce, Eta Fani Willis has subpoenaed a journalist who walked in on the georgia Fake Electors and here is how he ended up as a witness. Take a listen. I recognized one of the republican electors, one of whom wouldve been an elector. He went into a room into the capitol and i thought that was curious. I followed him in with my camera going and i entered the room where it was happening. The republican socalled electors were having their meeting right then. They pretty quickly threw me out of the room. But before they did, i act what they were doing, they said it was an education meeting. And education meeting. Joyce, your sense of how that testimony might fit into the Fulton County case. Here are my two favorite parts of that exchange. One is the notion that his cameras were on, that there is videotape of this meeting. And then the second, and perhaps more to the point of your question, the important part of this exchange is what he is told by the people who are meeting, that it is an education meeting. Of course, we know now that thats not true, that this was a meeting of a fake slate of electors. Why would you lie about it if there was nothing going on that was inappropriate . This is part of a package of evidence that fani willis will put together to talk about the conduct that goes on around this incident. Greg, you report that two former democratic lawmakers have also received subpoenas from Fulton County. What evidence are they potentially able to share . What evidenc these were two dc lawmakers who were part of the senate and House Judiciary Committees where republicans had subpoenaed or asked Rudy Giuliani to come testify. They were the ones who pushed back among democrats on the lies and false hidden Conspiracy Theorists. One of the state representatives running for Secretary Of State fact checked not just giuliani but what some of the other pro trump republicans were promoting at that hearing. I think that is going to be front and center through these special grand juries as well, the grandeur itself, the grand jury itself, and they will hear from these former democratic lawmakers who raised concerns at the time that giuliani and other republicans were promoting these lies and falsehoods at a state legislative hearing. Joyce, i have about 30 seconds left but i want to ask, you we have at least eight Fake Electors who already secured Immunity Deals from the dea. What does that indicate to you . Its a Just Fani Willis will have a lot of cooperating coconspirators when she releases this indictment. And joyce, you know what i mean when i say i have 30 seconds left. As always, joyce, greg, thank you both so much. Next, Republican Voters might actually be growing tired of the partys attacks on books, womens autonomy and others civil liberties. No new polling on the war on woke, and later, tragedy among the u. S. 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The proof of that are his own, words what he said, its okay to suspend the laws, suspend the constitution, preserve, protect, and defend the constitution. Its what the president takes an oath to do, and he said its okay to suspend it. These are his own words. Chris christie showing us what the argument against donald trump could look like if trump chooses to show up at the first gop debate later this month. As of now, and that is a big if. In a new fund raising email to supporters, trump suggested it would be quote, sort of foolish to attend a debate since hes already dominating the republican field. As the hill reports, trump foreign away the leader in the polls, has been flirting with the debate, arguing it would elevate his competition. He also described described a hostile relationship with fox news, suggesting that could be a factor in his decision to attend or not to attend. Joining us now fernando, of the strange days podcast and back with me former congressman david jolly, both are msnbc political analysts. I dont know if you are a betting man or not, but place your bets, does he show up . Not a betting man, but i do feel confident enough, alicia, to say he doesnt show up. This is one of those rare opportunities for donald trump that he actually wins by not showing up because he is going to be the dominant spender of that debate, whether he is there or not. And i think truly, one of the things the Trump Campaign understand, and this is due to the disastrous start of the ron desantis campaign, they recognize that this is a break makeorbreak moment for desantis. With trump not being, there it allows all the other republican contenders to Pylon Desantis in the hope that they themselves become the Trump Alternative in the republican primary. Trump can only make that mistake by showing up, i dont think he participates, and i think for him its a wise decision. I mean, david, its a pretty safe but in the context of that this guy is and not going to show up at the debate. In as much as i sir take ferdinands point about how they can pile up on desantis, it would also seem to me that theyre in a perhaps a different universe is an opportunity for them to decide on what a joint strategy is about donald trump. Right . To either convince fox news, lets put a podium up that is just empty. Right . If he is going to be the elephant in the room, it is undeniable that the first 15 minutes of question and answer is about the front runner who has chosen not to be there, and the multiple indictments that hes facing, is there a way for the republicans to actually leverage that in their favor . I dont think so. I agree with ferdinand. Zero reason for donald trump to show up. And to your point, then what do republicans do about donald trump himself . Yes, they can pile on rhonda santas. Heres the thing, we just learned that that conference last week, republicans cant take shots at donald trump, even if hes not there. We saw what happened to will hurd and Chris Christie and mike pence and others. So you see this weird dynamic of some republicans probably defending donald trump that night, even though he hasnt shown up. Donald trump has one job between now and mid march, which is to stay out of jail. And the way you state of jail legally is you delay the trial past march, and you get off your truth social account. Thats it. If he stays out of jail, this is his nomination, and then the dynamic is completely reset because its a binary contrast between donald trump the republican nominee, joe biden the incumbent president. So to flip the question on its head, if you are ron desantis, do you want trump to skip the debate or do you hope he shows up . No. Ron desantis doesnt want anyone to debate him, because as charlie showed in 2022, hes a horrific debater with a glass jaw. He doesnt take any type of criticism reliably. So hes in a bad situation. Thats actually, alicia, why his campaign agreed to debate gavin newsom. He is looking for anything, any kind of a desperate lifeline, to restart his campaign. Luckily, he doesnt have to worry about that until november, but for ron desantis, no. You dont want trump showing up at all, and again, this debate is simply a function of the fact that because hes been so weak in his launch, this presumed challenger to trump that was supposed to be leading trump at this point in the debate, the fact that the others are going to see that and smell blood in the water, its desantiss blood in the water. I expect them to bounce and bounce repeatedly on ron desantis. I dont need to explain to you, i dont need to explain to ferdinand, why were having this conversation in a more macro sense. We understand that democracy is on the line in the selection, and part of getting to a place where more voters understand that democracy is on the line in this election, is having a vocal chorus of Republican Leaders who are willing to say the same. Who might have the ability to break through to people who still remain persuadable. People who are not totally sold on Giving Donald Trump another opportunity. I understand the way we talk about it sounds like were gamifying it. Is he going to show up, is he not going to show up, i try to add some levity. But its because the stakes are so high. And the stakes of this not progressing, the stakes of him being able to just sit it out and no republicans other than Chris Christie, maybe hutcheson, prosecuting the case against him, thats bad for democracy. Yeah, but i think theres a way to accomplish that within the dynamics of the Republican Party. Because we know if youre will hurd, hutchison, kristie, the room does not want to hear that. It doesnt work, this isnt your party anymore. The person to watch is tim scott, and the reason i say that is because ron desantis and donald trump are uniquely dangerous figures. Unconstitutional regions, for cultural reasons, and other. And i know for tim scott, nikki haley, and others, progressives have concerns over ideology. But theyre not a danger to the office or to the constitution. And what tim scott has done is instead of going right at desantis or going right at donald trump, hes speaking aspirationally about how republicans can help on the economy and the strong foreign policy. Traditional republican themes, that contrast provides the opportunity to isolate trump and desantis. Tim scott and a few others on that stage can go to the room and say, look, this is my vision for america, and i know you believe in it too. Give me a shot. Coming out of this debate, recent desantis or tim scott or someone else might overtake it, and then you have a oneonone with trump. I have to ask you, because youre the resident pollster, theres new reporting from the New York Times that reads quote, when presented with the choice between two hypothetical republican candidates, only 24 of national Republican Voters opted for quote, a candidate who focuses on defeating radical woke ideology in our schools, media, and culture, over a candidate who focuses on restoring Law And Order in our streets and at the border. Understanding that these frameworks are kind of cooked up in labs and focus groups. Interesting, that for all of the play around woke, it is not actually the thing that is resonating even with Republican Voters. Well alicia, i think its a thoughtful point youre making. But the reason i think its not resonating i appreciate that, ferdinand. Listen, im trying to be honest. Look, the Republican Party today and congressman talked about it earlier, its a personality cult. If it were donald trump leading the book language, i think the woke stuff would be the most important thing in the Republican Party. Its just that thats desantiss turf and lane, trump recognizes that thats probably not going to have much traction because its coming out of his opponent. If trump himself were centering around that, i think the Maga Base Cult would follow right in line with the leader of that cult. And thats why your earlier question, which i think is so important and i hear the concern and passion in your voice, will we get this opportunity to address how critical this is about the questions for the survival of democracy with potentially a twice impeached, threetime indicted felon as the republican nominee. That opportunity is not for now, unfortunately. The Republican Party has jumped the shark in the sense. That is why biden, and i think smartly the democrats, are making that binary choice. And the states of what this election are about for the general election now. And it is indeed about the survival or death of democracy in this country, which is what will happen, meaning democracies demise, if donald trump manages to get power again to become president one more time. Those are the stakes. As always, thank you both so much. Still ahead, trumps lawyers making a very public argument that he did nothing wrong. Is it a throwback to another president , who famously thought he too was above the law . And next, how New York City is dealing with humanitarian crises. Advocates from the Mayors Office clash over the treatment of asylum seekers. Asylum seekers. Woman why did we choose safelite . Vo for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. We went to safelite. Com. Theres no one else wed trust. Their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our cars advanced safety system. They focus on our safety. So we can focus on this little guy. 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Texas put the floating barrier in place, mexican authorities warned it could be a death trap. The Biden Administration is suing texas to remove it. New york city, the mayor declared there is no more room for migrants in the cities seltzer system. The influx of migrants in part because theyve been bussed to new york from republican led states. Last week, migrants were seen sleeping on sidewalks for the nbcs Alison Barbara has that story. This block becoming a symbol for the migrant crisis in new york. People sleeping in the street for days, the searing images. Migrants on top of one another, waiting to get into manhattans Historic Roosevelt hotel. Now serving as a shelter. They were told the city simply did not have enough room to house them. But overnight, they all disappeared. City Officials Say the people that were sleeping here, about 130 migrants, were taken to a church in queens. We were able to connect with a church that had availability. City workers were seen cleaning the street outside of the Roosevelt Hotel. But advocates say the city was playing politics all along. Leaving people on the street instead of trying to help them. And now, advocates say the city is trying to wash the problem away. The city has been using the migrants as political pawns. Theyre trying to get more funding from the federal government, and theyre trying to dissuade people from coming here. City hall refuting those claims, calling the suggestion insulting. The city has not committed that that will not happen again, but we are all very hopeful that it wont. Advocates maintain the city is failing, and mayor eric adams heard it from hecklers. Key when he visited the migrants outside the Roosevelt Hotel this week, he says new york is in the middle of a humanitarian crisis. From this moment on, its downhill. There is no more room. The city is now planning to turn to Recreation Centers in brooklyn two temporary shelters for adults, seeking asylum. Were seeing more people come every day. We got access to the one that is already open, and according to the city, at capacity. Inside this hotel, this is the first place where people seeking asylum are processed in New York City. Officials with the city tell us it is hundreds of people coming in to this room every single day. Over the last year the city has opened 194 sites for migrants, including 13 large scale humanitarian relief centers. They say they are currently housing over 56,000 asylum seekers. Officials say the federal government needs to step up and that New York City is shouldering the burden of a national issue. This is a federal problem. Thats why we need federal intervention to help out. New york city can be doing all this and helping out this crisis. That was nbcs Alison Barber Reporting from new york. Next, did the president s lawyers make the same argument as Richard Nixon . Nbc news historian Michael Beschloss helps us break it all down. 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Now is the time to partner with our experts. Get started today with verizon business. Its your business. Its your verizon. Think hairsprays stuck in one dimension . Think again. Flex any style. With hairspray that flexes with you. New tresemme hairspray. By, now youve seen the mental and verbal gymnastics a trump legal team, though they never seem to stick the landing. Just this morning all across the networks, Donald Trumps lawyer did it again. Trying to claim and get the base to believe trumps third indictment is about trumps First Amendment rights. It is not. Criminal Defense Attorney john lauro also accuses the doj of conducting a witch hunt against his client. He is. Not as for the former president s own actions, this everything President Trump did was while he was in office. As a president. He is now immune from prosecution for acts he takes in connection with those policies. You are going to try to administratias not addressed that. Interesting legal place you are going to go that will also create some constitutional question. Immune from prosecution. Two students of history, that rebuttal might ring a bell. What in a sense you are saying is that there are certain situations, the houston panel, that part of it was one of, them where the president can decide that its in the best interest over the nation of something to do something illegal. When the president does it, that means it is not illegal. Michael beschloss is our nbc news president ial historian. Michael, what with the framers think of that argument . And they would cover their faces with their hands. I think they would probably cry, because that is so contrary to our law and our constitution. Yes, nixon did say the president does it, its not illegal. But as you can see, alicia, and as you know, he said that to david frost on a tv show three years after he resigned from the presidency. There is no way that he or his lawyers wouldve made that argument if, lets say, nixon had been indicted and not pardon, or if hed been impeached and was trying to defend himself having his Defense Lawyers defend him on the floor of the senate. This is a disgusting thing that a lawyer for an ex president would say that a president has immunity from around anything he, did no matter whether it is criminal or not, as long as he can connected in even the most strange way to some policy he was conducting as president. Thats one thing. The other thing we saw this morning, and i probably am anticipating what you are about to say, but im still my head is spinning. The same, Guy John Lauro said he might have been guilty of a technical Violation Of A Constitutional but not a criminal violation. But there is no such thing as a technical violation. If there is such a thing as a technical violation of the constitution, we have got no constitution. I keep joking, michael, that we need to start selling tshirts that say thats not a thing, because its the only possible retort to all the legal arguments. We should go in business together. Look for our forthcoming business. Heres the reason i wanted to talk to you, michael, which is knowing what we know about the consequences of in the past not having held president s accountable, and what does this moment, what does this process mean for the future standard . This is really all about president ial power. And outside the legal case that we are talking about, you have donald trump and his people talking about what amounts to a president ial dictatorship with very few constraints. A powerful president that is an autocrat, the kind weve never seen in the history of the presidency. But what makes this case that we are talking about, january six so vital and important and crucial is that that is the day that he almost took total power as president , almost initiated martial law, waged a coup, tried to suspend our democracy. So if there were no case like this, if there were no trial, and if, in some, way he is allowed to get through this trial and not be penalized for what he did, then this is no longer a democracy. Because any president in the future or others in our political system will feel absolutely free to do the same thing with no worry about a penalty. Michael, i need not remind, you because your my memory is encyclopedic that today marks 50 years since President Johnson signed the Voting Rights act of 1965 at the height of the civil rights movement. Talk to me about that moment as an Inflection Point for our current politics. There is something that changed the country. Lbjs idea was Civil Rights Act was great, 1964, because anyone could use a hotel or a restaurant and that was extremely important. But he felt the vital piece of Civil Rights Legislation was the Voting Rights act. Because once black americans and others who had been marginalized were able to use the vote, they could change this country and they could be involved in the decisions that were being made, not only in washington but localities and states all over the country. If lbj were to come back and see the retrenchment by the Supreme Court and republicans in the senate and house against Voting Rights that before ten, 15 years ago most republican president s felt a strongly about as democratic president s did. Once again, they would be alarmed. I always appreciate the reminder that the Republican Party we see today is in reality a very new incarnation of its own party. Absolutely. Nbc news president ial historian, my friend Michael Beschloss, as always, thank you for spending part of your weekend with us. Thank you so much. Always love it. Thank you, alicia. One final Programming Note before we go tonight. Ten pm eastern, do not miss the third episode of rain wilson and the Geography Of Bliss, the fivepart Documentary Series follows actor rain wilson as he explores the happiest places on earth and unpacks the science of happiness all along the way. This week, rain travels to ghana. Rain wilson and the Geography Of Bliss continues tonight ten pm eastern right here on msnbc. That is it for today and for this weekend. Im alicia menendez. Thank you for spending part of your sunday with us. Be sure to join us next weekend for more american voices. Right after the short break, its time for inside with jen psaki. Businesses need 5g solutions today. Thats why they choose tmobile for business. Mlb partners with tmobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Aaa relies on tmobiles network to stay connected nationwide, so they can help get their members back on the road. And were helping pano ai innovate, to stop the spread of wildfires. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. They had to indict a former president history will ask how did a person like this get elected ata person like this get elected a jack smiths words, not mine. Donald trump was indicted again this week. This time too k. And hes already issuing threats that are getting the Special Counsels attention. Former white house Chief Of Staff is standing by with his first Public Comments about all of it. And hes coming up first. Plus, from protective orders to potential Witness Intimidation two very questionable arguments, ive got 100 questions for neal katyal and andrew weissmann. And later, he served as an Impeachment Manager and on the january six committee. Congressman joins me live to discuss his reaction to the charges and what hes watching for, next. What hes watc