Violating International Humanitarian law. A u. N. Commission is collecting evidence of war crimes allegedly committed by israel and hamas. Israel says it is observing International Law. The International Criminal court can launch an investigation to determine whether casualties in gaza and israel are a violation, but israel does not recognize the iccs jurisdiction. For nine consecutive days gaza has shaken under relentless israeli strikes. Entire neighborhoods have been turned to rubble after israel dropped thousands of bombs. These indiscriminate attacks on civilians are violate article 25 of the hague conventions. Since hamas killed 1300 israelis nearly 10 years ago, the Israeli Military has imposed a total siege on gaza. The enclave was already under a blockade for 16 years. Palestinians and aid workers say lack of food, medicine, and basic supplies has made the situation catastrophic. Israel as the occupying power is prohibited from deporting or transferring part of the population from the land it occupies. But last week israel issued an ultimatum for 1. 1 million palestinians to leave their homes. We will go to our panel of guests in a moment, but first, this report from the hague. Reporter with thousands of civilian deaths in the situation escalating, calls for International Justice are growing, and all eyes are here now in the hague. But so far the icc has not made any formal announcement and will step up its investigation into possible war crimes committed by israel or hamas. In 2021, the icc decided that it has jurisdiction over the occupied palestinian territories, even though israel does not recognize the International Criminal court. Numerous cases have been filed since then, including the killing of al jazeera reporter, shireen abu akleh, who was killed by Israeli Soldiers in 2022. But so far no progress has been announced, let alone arrest warrants issued. This is in contrast with what happened after russia invaded ukraine. Five days later the prosecutor announced that he will start a formal investigation. And since then, an arrest warrant against platted against Vladimir Putin has been issued. If a blockade of gaza is considered a war crime and possible genocide according to International Law experts. The icc has denied a request for an interview. James lets bring in our guests. In london we have geoffrey robertson, founder of doughty street chambers and former of the War Crimes Court in sierra leone. Geoffrey was appointed by the unsc stink jurist member on its justice council. We have sawsan zaher, human rights lawyer and Legal Advisor for the Civil Society coalition for emergency in arab society. And in new york we have marc, military advisor of the dutch and bl pax for peace. Marc was in gaza during the operation to investigate the conduct of war. He also instructs war crime investigators at the institute of International Criminal investigations. Thank you all for joining us. I want to start with geoffrey, because the rules of law, we hear all these terms, ihl, International Humanitarian law, the latin phrase, and a thing everyone has heard of but no one really quite understands all the details, the geneva conventions. I want to ask you to start our conversation off. Give us the 92nd version. What the 90 second version. What are the rules of law . Geoffrey the rules of war are not rules of war. They have been with us for hundreds of years. Dont kill civilians. Dont rush to trial or execute enemies without fair trial. Dont kill a prisoner who surrenders. There have been rules of war for centuries. In 1999 in what is called the rome statue, the rules of war were put in fairly straightforward english. They ban the taking of hostages. They ban the use of starvation as a tactic, which seems to be going on now in gaza. They are protected at all times civilians, unless they got messed up in the war. So they are the rules of war. Fairly clear. James just to be clear, are these binding on every country and every armed group . Geoffrey they are binding on countries that signed up to the International Criminal court. And thats 123 countries. But they are not binding on russia, which commits war crimes every few hours in ukraine. They are not binding on america, which refuses to sign. In the fear that one day an american soldier may be prosecuted in the hague. And they are not binding on israel, which of course refuses to sign. So, they have a defect in that although we can say that israel, for example, or russia is committing, clearly committing a war crime, mr. Putin is committing one clearly of aggression by invading ukraine, the problem of taking anyone to court and punishing them for that criminality, and indeed, that barbaric criminality when it comes to bombing civilians, is limited. And only if mr. Putin or some air force commander who has bombed a civilian residence is captured in sweden or in europe somewhere, is there any prospect of putting them on trial. So, you can say that war crimes has a catch as, catch can quality about them. Only if you catch a war criminal outside his country that will protect him, can war crimes be punished. James as we move to the specific region of the world we are talking about, israel and palestine, this very long conflict, there is an important thing before we talk about the details. We are the background on the rules of war, but israel is seen legally as the occupying power. What does this mean . Sawsan this means that since 1967, israel is abided by several obligations based on International Law, and the law of occupation. Which one of the most important and basic regulation of them is basically to protect civilians, and to make the distinction between civilians and combatants. Now, in 2005, we all know that israel disengaged from the gaza strip. But it still had obligations based on ihl, because of the fact that it imposed a severe blockade a few months after 2007 until today. So israel has obligations. Israel is obligated to protect civilians. It is obligated not to attack and not to violate all the articles that are included and anchor not only the statute but the geneva conventions and the hague regulation. Which basically puts the obligation on israel not only to not hurt civilians, but also not to attack infrastructure that gives services for civilians such as electricity, water, fuel. When you look at the history, especially since the blockade was imposed until now, basically, we see that israel has controlled all these basic services on a very minimum humanitarian level. Even the Israeli Supreme Court, petitions reached the Israeli Supreme Court to allow more fuel and electricity to allow freedom of movement in and out of gaza. Not only in and out of gaza abroad. We saw that intervention by the Supreme Court was very, very limited. Which also itself said that despite this engagement, israel still has some minimum obligations based on ihl. James let me bring in marc now. Marc, you have a different perspective on this. In 2009, you were in gaza. You are a war crimes investigator and former military officer. Before we talk about the last 10 days, how easy or difficult is your work from afar . I would assume the fact that we now have social media, we now have so much more media evidence, that helps you a great deal. Marc we are concerned with the civilian populations of both israel and gaza. Whether those are israel is currently in gaza as captives, or they are palestinians and israelis under fire. Indeed, social media has now become a part of the conflict, and conflicts as we have seen not only in the israel gaza situation, but looking at things like ukraine. One would think would assist war crimes investigators. But in fact, the preponderance of disinformation makes it very difficult. I look to bellingcat for example, which is an open source investigating they do open source investigations to determine whether or not civilians have been killed. Their work has been greatly complicated by this preponderance of misinformation and disinformation. But lets make it very clear that both hamas and israel have positive obligations under International Law, the geneva conventions, to protect civilians. Whether they are in airstrikes in the way that the airstrikes are planned and conducted, or if they are allowing palestinians to flee to protect the palestinians on the ground within gaza. These are applications under International Law these are obligations under International Law and all parties are responsible for that. James let me take you to october 7, a carefully planned audacious attack by hamas, killing over 1400 israelis. Are these war crimes . Geoffrey yes. Clearly they are. They are obscene of zinc obscene examples of war crimes, of killing civilians and capturing them and holding them as hostage. This is an ongoing war crime, and it gives israel a right of selfdefense to pursue them, to capture them, to put them on trial. But there are limits, obviously, to that right. And to the time of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, what you find in the bible, is long gone. That seems to be, in part, the israeli reaction, and it is a wrong, unethical reaction. James so geoffrey, when you hear this complete siege, blocking all the electricity and water, although they are allowing a little bit of it now back to gaza, fuel, food, medicine do you see that as collective punishment . And as collective punishment in itself a war crime . Geoffrey it is a war crime. There is a section of the rome statute which precisely defines what are attempts at starvation, at the end of the day, is the war crime, and cutting off of crucial civilian supplies. The transporting of civilians outside the country is also a war crime, at little notice, but its there. And it covers the americansupported attempt to put one million or so gazans, throw them out of the country via the small aperture in egypt. That amounts to transporting a civilian population outside the state. So, yes, there are a number of crimes that are in prospect, although it may be that americans, egypt and others, are attempting to persuade the israelis not to pursue it. So we have not gotten to the stage yet, but we may in the next couple of days, of criminal behavior by way of starving the population or ex to painting the population out of their territory and into the deserts of egypt, which seems to be one of the plans. James marc, you are clearly watching what is going on in terms of the military efforts by israel. You were there in 2009. This, though, is the deadliest gaza war so far. In fact, 6000 bombs in six days, that is the last time the israeli published a statistic, that is more than the number the u. S. Use in its entire battle against isil in syria. It is more than the u. S. Used in afghanistan in a single year. Now, does that give you the view that this is probably a war crime, that they are just raining bombs on the civilian population . Marc well look, the obligation to protect civilians in conflict is a clear one. And really, the mark of a professional military is its ability to protect civilians while it is conducting offensive operations. If the Israeli Defense forces believed that the laws of armed conflict, that International Humanitarian law, is holding them back from their offensive operations, then perhaps it shows that they do not concern themselves as much with the protection of civilians and the stopping of civilian harm than they should. Look, i worked in the predator gone during the iraq war in 2003 and participated in many dozens if not hundreds of airstrikes. And you have to understand the amount of work that goes into that, into planning, identifying, and validating your target. Once you have the target identified, you also have to conduct illegal analysis. The lawyers have to look at each individual target and determine whether you can strike it with distinction, meaning you are going to hit a military object and not a civilian object, and also proportionately, so that the damage done, whatever the damage may be, is not so widespread that the civilian out harm the civilian harm outweighs whatever military gain that you get. Additionally, militaries also conduct a Collateral Damage estimation in which they try to ascertain how many civilians are going to be killed in each strike. They do this before hand. This is a macabre calculus that is all put together prior to each individual strike. Now, when we look at the pace of operations in gaza, 6000 airstrikes in six days, that is 1000 a day. That is an incredibly high number of strikes for such a tiny area. In fact, its somewhat akin to with the u. S. Military was doing in iraq for the entire country during the iraq war in 2003. Now we are talking about a small postage stamp. So it does raise the question and concerns of whether or not the Israeli Military is taking all precautions to protect civilians in these airstrikes. James and the airstrikes have continued, sawsan. And they have asked the population of the biggest urban conurbation within gaza, although it is not hugely densely populated, but 1. 1 Million People initially in just 24 hours, to move. Is this a war crime . Sawsan i think that based on the international and ihl norms, it clearly is a mounted to a war crime. The most two important things i think this time with israels war on gaza, rather than the war during august 2014, are two most important things. First of all, the intent and a willing fullness willingness of israel and its intent in terms of the intention of what to destroy, how to destroy, what kind of commands to give to civilians in gaza, where to move. And also the results. The massive nist of the killing the massiveness of the killing of innocent people. Take not just the 6000 missiles, we are talking nine days since october 7 with at least 2700 being killed in gaza, while more than 1000 people who were women and children. And we saw the attack on civilians when they were told to evacuate southbound. And when we see that there are at least 55 families that were killed in total, all the family members. So the massiveness in the intent. And when we learn about what we read and hear, the intentions of israeli officials, of the ministry of defense, on how they are dealing, all of these are indicators in examining the competence of a war crime, or even genocide. Because these articles in the rome statute are very clear. Other than examining the Collateral Damage and distinction between civilians and combatants, the willingness and intent are very important to examine. And unfortunately, the responses and the statements from what we see and hear, together with a result. Even you and officials, which i would even u. N. Officials, which i would like to refer to, the u. N. Special report for the occupied territories said the massive killing of innocents is the thing that should be examined here. To compare with the people that were killed, or the total number so far, 2700, while in more than one month, poured was 50 days, the attack on gaza and the operation in gaza in august 2014 james go on, geoffrey. Geoffrey the evidence is clear that war crimes have been committed. We just see the statistics, the numbers. We can see on television childrens bodies being brought out. There is no question that war crimes are being committed. If it is genocide, that is an open question, although there has to be genocidal intent, and that is difficult to prove. It could be that israel will claim that it is going into gaza to release those who are being held hostage, or to disarm james geoffrey, if i may, just to be clear, because this is important if the Israeli Military is about to intervene. The sick, elderly, children, those who cannot move, israel will say they gave warning. But under International Law, does israel still have an obligation to protect these people . Geoffrey you dont have to give warning. What you are doing is transporting, or ordering by way of backing up your order with guns, rockets, and airplanes. You are forcing a civilian population out of the country. You are forcing them, first of all, south, and then through a porthole which may be a minute here and corridor if mr. Blinken succeeds, or and may be not. It may be closed. So the force is to leave your country and camp in the desert as refugees. And that certainly is a war crime. Many children, many people who have gotten no connection with hamas. So, although israel has the right to selfdefense, that is not a license to kill or do anything other than conduct yourself with due regard to humanitarian principles. James if i could bring in now, as a war crimes investigators, when you hear at least 23 ambulances targeted, u. N. Has 23 sights of are those things you would be investigating as well . Marc absolutely. All these issues are being investigated. To speak to the law on the displacement of the population, and giving effective warning. Article 57 of ap1, Additional Protocol one of 1977, is fairly clear. It says to militaries that you should give warning if at all possible. The israelis have given warning. They have given some fairly specific warnings to the population. The question is, are those realistic . Candy population take them . But more importantly, even if israel does provide warning, it is that it does not then make it a free fire zone. They still must take all the precautions they would be taking even had they not provided that warning. James let me bring in sawsan because we are coming to the end of our discussion, and i do want to talk about accountability. Because we have had already four previous gaza wars. 2008, 2009, 2014, 2021. There were allegations of war crimes in all of them and no one ever went to court, did day . Did they . Sorry, thius is for sawsan. Sawsan, go ahead please. Sawsan been rights organizations have, since been calling for investigating war crimes. And we all know what happened with a commission of inquiry led back then by mr. Goldstone. But on the other hand, we know that palestine signed a statute and gave the entitlement to investigate only after july 2014. So, even if we want to call for investigating war crimes, it should not be by the icc, investigating only acts that have been conducted from that date. I think the development recently from 1. 5 years ago from the icc that it does have jurisdiction to investigate were crimes in all occupied palestinian territory, including east jerusalem. Then yes, there should be a very clear call to investigate these crimes. I think that with what we are seeing today, time has come to act on having a decision and opening were crimes of the killing of innocents, especially women and children. James thank you very much to all of our panel today. Geoffrey robertson, sawsan zaher , and marc garlasco. Hopefully, perhaps like me, you are more informed about the laws of war. This program is available to watch again any time on aljazeera. Com. If you have comments, go to our facebook age, facebook. Com ajinsidestory. Or you can post, i have to remind myself they are no longer called tweets, on x, ajinsidestory. Stay safe and see you soon
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