Additional funding is provid by. Corporate funding is provided by. David miliband, welcome to firing line. Good to be with yoaret. You are the president and the ceo of the International Rescue committee, Global Relief organition that was founded by Albert Einstein in 1930. Hard to do better than that, can you . No, i dont think so. Ar yoalso the former foreign secretary of the United Kingdom and a member former member of the labour party in parliament. I first must ask you about developments in the news this week. President trump ordered the killing of Iran Quds Force Major General soleim last week. Had to say about it. Soleimani was plotting imminent and sinister attackson merican diplomats and military personnel. T we caught him in thect and terminated him. In your opinion, was President Trump co to do this . Well, obviously, we havent seen the evidence that President Trump referred to, in terms of the imminent attack on u. S. Forceset or on u. S. A is obviously whatuestion the consequences of this are. And i can only speak to you from the perective of a humanitarian organization. Preparing, across thee middle east, for more chaos,re onflict, more civilian casualties and also theow not very remote prospect of western countries being driven out of the middle east. Io thats oly been the strategic goal of iran for a long time, and thats been brought closer by the votes in the Iraqi Parliament and by the rising tensio about american presence in iraq. That the west leaves more likely the middle east or leaves iraq in this case, is it possible, to play devils advocate, that the assassination of Quds Force Commander soleimani changes the seriousness with which iran takes the United States and make it more likely that iran returns to the negotiating table . Well, i can tell you from my own time in government that iran, who the u. K had full diplomatic relations with in the time, unlike theu. , they take to the United States very seriously, and they take the history of the u. S. Iran relationship very seriously. They take the power of theun ed states, the military power but also the broader i dont think they were expecting eir Major General from the quds force to be assassinated in the iraqi airport. Thats a good point. But that doesnt mean that iran doesnt take america serious. And i think that the sen of iranian humiliation could obviously lead tm to miscalculate. That would have very grave consequences. Those of us who were involved in the early days in trying to establish a Nuclear Agreement wi iran obviously fear that there is a return to a pathway to a nuclear weapon, that the terrible choice that all of us feared either iran gets the bb or iran gets bbed that that chce, we dont want to get back on that path again, and thats a fear of anyoneth who studiemiddle east at the moment. The United States, at this not to pursue a sthas decided of engagement with iran. Is that a mistake, in your view . I think that its imperativeg toe iran. Iran is this country of 80 million people. Its a historic civilition, but it also has an enormous range of interests across the region that have been, in a way, helped by some aspects of western policy, m politakes, over the last 20 years. I think that engagement Political Engagement is the only way forward, ultimately, because irans always going to be part of the middle east. Its not going to be removed from the middle east. And so recognizing that reality and then finding a way to have seems, to me, to be the only way in which to achieve some kind of stability. The british newspaper the telegraph recently reported that, in 2007, when you were foreign secretary during the iraq war, that you blocked an operatn to kill Major General soleimani. This was a very odd story, which had no provenance at all. I would remember that. It wouldve beennc a pretty bigent. Ive checked with some of my senior colleagues. They have no memory of it. Et so, your tas that. So i checked with our with senior people who were involved with me. Re and no onmbers that . We would remember it if it happened. Had you been presented with a plot, such as has been reported, would you have been against it . We dont assassinateor setate figures from other countries. Thats a british approach to these things. Hed taken on a political role. And, obviouse great fear today is of steady escalation with ultimately the nuclear question back on the table. Remember, the decision to withdraw from the jcpoa, the Nuclear Agreement, was in large part premised on the argument that, in 15 years time,ay iraneturn to producing a bomb. Where we are now is that the iranians are taking steps to produce a bomb today, and thats oiously very worrying. This brings me to the instability in the regiot and your work International Rescue committee. So id like to take a step back and have you reflect on your personal history. Y im gonna sh a photograph, and id like you to tell me about it. Well, there are two men in the oto. One on the right looks a bit like me, and thats my dad, and the one on the left who los a bit less like me is my grandfather. P thatsture taken in 1940. They were refugees from belgium in london. They escaped when the nazis invaded belgium. E and hanother photograph. How about this one . Yeah, thats my mother, also arriving as a refugee in the u. K. In 1946. She was a 12yearold girl at the time, arriving poland. Y how has being the child of refugees shapr approach manage . Refugee crisis you now my generation is, if you like, a transitionalra geon, in the sense that we remember people who rvived the holocaust, who survived the second world war, but weive beyond them. We outve them. And so its incumbt on us to tell their story. And telling their story takes a number of forms. On of them is that, the people who are fleeing from conflict and violence around t world today about 70 million people, 30 million refugees, 40 millions internallyaced they live in different parts of the world. Theyre maybe not om europe theyre from the middle east, theyre across parts of africa but their stories are strikingly similar. Theyre about fear, theyre about loss, theyre about and theyre about theut hatred, consequences for innocent people, including children. Rl half of the s refugees are childr. So there is a coection between my parents sty and what they went through and today the story of todays refugees, even though the circumstances, in many ways, are very different. How do you define a refugee a refugee is someone for whom its not safe to go home or stay at home. And the reasons it might notaf beis that theres a war going on, someones trying to persecute you, up and. Es trying to beat you so it doesnt include economic insecurity. Exactly. I chose my wds carefully. Its not someone who would prefer not to go home. Its seone for whom its not safe to go home. And there are, more or less, 30 million pple in that category around the world. And refugees are found, in thein main, noountries like the u. S. , where im based, or the u. K. , where im from. Most refugees are in poor or low or middleincome countries like jordan or lebanon, like ethiia or uganda or banglesh. Its the poorer parts of the world that bear the greatest, if you like, burden or responsibility for hoing refugees, and its a double burden, if you like, because theyve got needs of their own populations, and then they have populations arriving from next doo so, just this week its 2020 watch list. Here you can see the top 20 countries yemen, syria, nigeria, venezuela, democratic republic of congo are the top five on the list. And whats striking to me is how little this list changes from year to year. These are crises that last for many, many years at a time. You often have children who are born into refugee camps who dont know their home country. Thats a very good point. Ha why is itthe need i think there are two reasons that are really important. The first that weve got a genuine crisis of diplomacy. The tools of dlomacy that are developed for relations which are suffering just arent adequate to wars within states. Those conflicts that youve shown on the map are socalled civil wars theyre wars within states. Hi the second that i think is very important is, were living in a world where powehas been fragmented right around the world. And if you look at theur u. N. Sy council today, its not just split, its deadlocked. End up with these astingou conflicts that recur beyond generations. Youve said were living in an age of impunity, whe bad actors are free to cause great suffering. At o you mean by that . I mean that you can, if youre a conflict player today, commit war crimes and get away with it. You can bomb cches of schoolchildren and get away with it. You can besiege a city and get away with it. And the terrible thing about this age of impu is that, once it starts, its very hard to reverse. So, then, how do you make the case, as the leader of the irc,in especially a this rising tide of economic nationalism some people call ipopulism that theres not just a moral obligation of wealthy counies to aid suffering people but is there an economic case, as well . Yes. And i make the case with head as well as heart. Its easy to say, here are people in need. Weve got to help them. Thats the moral case, especially when theyre innont. So whats the but the case for the head nt to say that, in an interdepenorld, in a connected world, problems that start in the middle east t dont end middle east. Problems that start in Central America dont end in Central America. The problems from the middle east come to europe. The problems from Central America come to the u. S. Southern border. And if you neglect humanitarian crisis, then the product, as sure as night follows day, is political instability. And polical instability does not remain within the countries n thin which it starts. So, you have e International Rescue committee now under two president s, president obama and President Trump. And in the past, the United States has been a leaderf inee resettlement. But our refugee have shrunk significantly. This year, it has been capped at 18,000. What is the impact of the United States taking in fewer refugees . Welrunk is a very nice word to use. It makes it sound like a sort of natural phenomenon. Theyve been shrunk. The Refugee Resettlement progra0 that averaged refugees a year over the last my initial note said decimated, if it makes you feel better. [ both laugh ]ee so itsquite an active decision by the Trump Administration to reduce from 90,000 to the 18,000 figure you mention, the number of fugees allowed in. Now, the consequence of that is very clear a large number of people who are the most Vulnerable People who are eligible for Refugee Resettlement are still stuck in limbo outside the country. But secondly, other countrie who followed americas lead in raising their Refugee Resettlement numbers ve followed americas lead in reducing the Refugee Resettlement numbers. But heres a final thing that i think is really interesting. President trump didnt just, reduce to 18,0e number of refugees allowed into americ he said he wants to gi every state the right to say, no, they didnt want to have any refugees come. Whats happened, so far, 41 out of 50 states have repliedhe president. 41 states have said, no, we want to carry on taking refugees. And i think that says ing important about america. So i think what youre lyserving is that, potenti the leaders of the states of the United States actually dont reprent the politics of the president. Re well, even if theyre in his party, which is ining. So what youre saying is, prident trump isnt representing the United States. Look, im not an am citizen or an american voter, so im not gon make a political comment. Wh im gonna say is very striking is that the bipartisan commitment to Refugee Resettlement remember, president reagan admitted more refugees than any other president. And so that bipartisan commitment seems tstill have a beating heart in states around the country. So are you optimistic . Me , you sound uplifted by this. And what i was itially gonna ask you cause im quite surprised by this, too, is have you observed the politicson of immigrand refugees in this country, and having observed the rhetoric shift between one president and the other, how you undersnd that as i mean, youve been in the United States now for seven yeardo hoou understand the politics of refugees . Well, i think the first is that, as you indicated, the polies of refugees has got mixed up with the politics of immigration. And theyre reted, but theyre different, because refugees immigrants are seeking to move for a better life. But theyve both been vilified by the president. Theyve both been vilified, and theyve got mixed up together to the benefit of neith. The politics of immigration and refugees is not untethered to the rise in nationalism, the rise in global populism. Which brings me to brexit. The United Kingdom is scheduled to leave the European Union at the end of th month, thanks to Prime Minister Boris Johnsonsto very large v at the polls last month. You recently wrote in the guardian, i am convinced that brexit is theiggest Foreign Policy disaster since appeasement in the 1930s. Thats a very strong statement. Yeah, and brexit is the sundering, the breaking of 45 years of membership of the European Union and 55 years of attempts to get into the european uni. But my argument my side of the argument lost. And Boris Johnsons got his majority. We are going to brexit. We dont yet know what brexit will mean, and one of the arguments that weve made is that, far from gettg brexit done on january the 31st, all well have done is well have checked out of the e. U. Hotel, but we dont know what hotel weve checked into. And thats the big question that makes people like me say, look, were gonna be dealing with the consequences of brexit, the consequences of checking out of the e. U. Hotel, for many years to come,be use the trade negotiations, the security arrangements, the education and research commitments that we made to each other, all thats gonna be negotiated over the rest of this decade. And do you lack confidence in the United Kingdoms ability to negotiate new trade dealsng and new arents . We havent needed to negotiate a trade deal for 40 years. Pele dont understand this britain hasnt had a trade negotiator for 40 years because the European Union has been the trade negotiator for all th28 members of the European Union. But do you lack confidence in the United Kingdoms ability to do it . Se of not. But if you look at the compence not the confidence, the competence with which successive british governments overhe last three years have tried to negotiate with europe, youd say could they have made a bigger hash of it . No, they couldt. So, anyone who tells you that theyre convinced its gonna be a breeze really doesnt know what theyre talking about. So then explain to us why your former constituents in south shields, northeast england, voted for 65 for brexit. I think they wanted to give and they felt thatconomics kick, had turned against what in america would be called a rust belt constituency, what i call a fantastic place but thats, i think, the essence of the story it was a chance to kickystem. We referenced last month your party, the labour party,tt suffered a pspectacular defeat at the polls, thanks to e farleft candidate, Jeremy Corbyn, who is the labour party leader. tha belief on the left in british and american politics that the most progressive policies are the ones that can win broadly, and its a debate actually that habeen happening on the le for some time, including on this program in 1980, when william f. Buckley jr. Hosted tony benn, a Key Labour Party leade who made that case to william f. Buckley jr. Lets take a look. In fact, something has happened with the labour party. In 1951, it haover a million duespaying members. Labour weekly estimates it has 284,000 today. So there is some presumably, populist sense of dissatisfaction with it. And i think there is a sense among a lot of labour people that we say one thing in opposition and do Something Else in government. And e real reason, or one of the major reasons, why were going for party reform nowst is to try and e credibility and tegrity because the labour party is a socialist party. It always has been. People actually vote labour in the expectation that there will be a change in the structureci of power in y. And im afraid theyd be disappointed because, over the last 20 years, Labour Party Leadership has been, really, a visionist leadership. Its tried to bury its its commitment to socialism, and i think thats a factor, mylf, in the decline in our support. Does the defeat of corbyn disprove benns argument . Yes. I mean, therery clear lesson here, because, essentially, Jeremy Corbyn tk the tony benn political approach and gave it a road t and what it turns out is that, if you have incredible policies, a mistrusted leader, a team that doesnt seem to have the ability to deliver, youre get what we would call stuffed. Youre going to lose badly. And labour suffered a historic defeat. Big lessons here. Are some were living in a time of Enormous Economic inequality at undoubtedly drives people to want have big solutions. S but if the butions arent credible, people will run away from them. And thats essentiallyin what happenehe u. K. Yeah. Corbyn has been called the british Bernie Sanders. How much of that is because theyre both politicians who are in their 70s a and haeftofcenter opinion. I think that the corbyn model is a very stark warning,h wh that the more radical change you want to promote, the more credible you have to be in your ability to deliver on it. And british voters simply concluded that the more promises Jeremy Corbyn made, the fewer of them would be delivereand the fewer of them they supported. So how much of a cautionary tale is corbyns loss to american democrats as they look to nominatinga ndidate for 2020 . I think its a very clear example here that if a Political Party loses contact with the elecrate, it will lose. And one can overdo the transatlantic parallels. Just because we both speak english doesnt mean that were the same country. But i thinthere is a very clear lesson at a time when social democratic parties, centleft rties around the world, are struggling with attacks from populist, attacksen from therright, attacks from the hard left. The hard left doesnt provide the answer. You say the hard left doesnt provide the answer, but e Bernie Sanders here, in st quarter of fundraising in the president ial campaign, raised 10 million more dollars than his next closest competir. He raised 34. 5 million. So there is energy on the Progressive Left in this country. And dont want you neverny want to hat, and im not gonna insert myself into the american political debate. But what i can report is that an Incredible Program produces an appalling result, and ths what happened in the u. K. , and democracies ne strong oppositions as well as strong governments, and thats what the is lking at the moment. You actually called the showdown between the conservative party and t labour party an unpopularity contest. And one of the oer elements that we havent discussed that emerged in the campaignof was a failureremy corbyn to persuasively address allegations of antisemitism that he riled the labour party. Ot and you the failure to acknowledge, never mind address, antisemitism is a moral scar. Why has antisemitism emerged within theabour itself well, i think that it has been allowed to tether itself. Its been allowed to grow on social media, whenymity provides a defense against accountability. And its been allowed to grow because it hasnt beeny. Smashed, rea and the lesson of history is very clear. Any form of racism, if you don, tacklet grows, and its spurred on. And think thats the challen that any labour leader is going to have to take on. We know that its a scourge, and it needs to be dealt with. We if yo a labour leader, how would you have dealt with it . Well, you you must have, first of all, the appropriate disciplinary procedures. Condly, you have to have a zerotolerance policy. Thirdly, youve got to recognize that, in the antisemitic tropes, there is a worldviewas ell as a particular view, and the worldview is aboutlobalists, its about a series of tropes about whos runng the world. And its a dangerous worldview because its misguided and wrong, and y have to take on the ideology as well as the practicality. Is it an ideology or a Conspiracy Theory . Well, its a conspiracytt theory is a way of putting it. Yeah. Is it your view that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic . I dont think that thats where i want to take the argument. What hes allowed to happeis, two words that i never believed i would see in t same paragraph, never mind headline,. Abour, my party, and antisemiti i never believed id see them in the same paragraph or headline. Hes allowed that to happen. And thats on his watch, and its his responsibility. I appreciate that you dont want to take the argument there, but i just have to ask you the question again. Mean, by not taking on that antisemitic . Y, is that well, hes allowed antisemitism to grow, and it almt doesnt matter what the motivation was, what the defense is. The product is pernicious, and thats what needs to be taken on. Why do you suppose he did . I think that he didt want to attack people who he perceived to be on his sidein he sectarian warfare within the labour party. I think at he also was unclear in his own mind about the difference betweeng criticize government of israel at different points in history for its policies and veering into antisemitism. At one point, you had hoped to be the ne labour party leader, and many viewers here in the United States dont necessarily know about the dra that unfolded between you and your brother when he challenged you d then ultimately narrowly defeated you to be the leader of the party in 2010. Reflecting back to that time they dont need to know that. They dont need to know it,t ey do know now. So what have you learned from that loss . Learned is a simple one dont live in the past. You hold your head up, you take your values, you take the hit, and then you try and put your values and experience to work. Well, t labour party is looking for a new leader. And the courier conducted an online poll last nth about the elections in which you came in secondt 19 people who could inspire a labour comeback. I think that must have been done very much only amongst my friends. Even ahead of tony blair. [ laughing well, the election for labour leaders for existing m. P. S, so the electorates gonna be saved that chce. But you have just written an oped. About the future of labo and looking ahead four, five, six years, would you rule it out . I never rule anything out. I believe thena internatrescue committee has been a remarkable experience for me. Feel truly privileged to be leading 13,000 employees,000 volunteers around the world. Were an 800 million organization. Were really addressing a big issue. I ver want it to seem like ive got anything other than full focus onhat responsibility. Equally, obviously, im not gonna do this forever, and so i dont know what im gonna do next. And some people might say, oh, you shld never say you dont know, but actually, its the truth, and its better to tell the truth than not. Ho and so whyd i rule anything out . I mean, i dont know what im gonna do next, so lets see. Dav miliband, with that, thank you very much for coming to firing line. Thank you. Firing line with Margaret Hoover is made ssible by. Additional funding is provided by. Corporate funding is provided by. Youre watching pbs. Hello, everyone. And welcome to amanpour and company. Heres whats coming up. Conflicting stories on what brought down the ukrainian e airler tehran. All on board were lled, including 63 canadians. I speak to the former canadian ambassador to the u. S. Then taking stock. A week of high crisis and next steps with former british dalton, and americran expert barbara slavin. And this crisis began even before the ayatollahs me to po r. A professor talks to our walter isaacson. Contagious and even lower your blood pressure. I speak the director of uclas new kindness institute
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