Transcripts For KPIX 60 Minutes 20240713

They are right now. Neel kashkari helped pull the nation out of our last economic crisis. Now with the Federal Reserve, he has a frank view of what must be done to save the economy from coronavirus. Having been on the front line of the 2008 financial crisis, and i saw how devastating that was, we did get through it. We will get through this crisis. Rightwing populism is making a notsosubtle comeback in europe. We found an interesting example in hungary, where a Government Program intends to stimulate birth rates by taking over fertility clinics, offering free treatments, giving cash loans, and even subsidizing minivans for young, married couples who become new parents. Im lesley stahl. Im bill whitaker. Im anderson cooper. Im jon wertheim. Im scott pelley. Those stories, tonight, on 60 minutes. ticking togethe a hand especially now with 6month payment relief. Buy a new ford, well defer 3 payments and make 3 payments for peace of mind up to 6 months. Shop at ford. 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Food and Drug Administration and the National Institutes of health are now slashing red tape to expedite research so promising vaccines and therapies can be developed as quickly as possible. To date there is no proven medical way to stop this coronavirus no treatment, no vaccine. The best defense has been tried andtrue Public Health measures social distancing and hand washing. But the rapid spread of the deadly virus prompted medical researchers the world over to go on offense. Old medicines are being dusted off and repurposed, new vaccines are being developed in government and commercial labs. We went to omaha, nebraska, where one of those drugs is being tested on some of the sickest american patients. At the university of Nebraska Medical Center, one of the eerier scenes weve witnessed in recent weeks. Cocooned inside that bubble, called an isopod, a 36yearold woman unlucky to have been infected with the new coronavirus, but lucky to be here. This facility was one of the first in the country built for outbreaks like this. Some of the sickest patients from the diamond princess cruise ship were taken there. Quarantined in yokohama, japan, more than 700 passengers and crew contracted the virus, including 67yearold american carl goldman. He was quarantined here for a month. We had to talk to him through thick glass. Carl goldman when we landed in omaha, more officials came onboard with hazmat suits. They unloaded me, put me on a stretcher. They were wheeling me through passageways that were deserted then up an elevator, and then into a room that was set up as a biocontainment room. Whitaker they moved you to a biocontainment room . Goldman yeah. Whitaker dr. Angela hewlett is the medical director of the biocontainment unit, equipped to care for patients with highly contagious, dangerous diseases. Built in response to the 2001 anthrax scare, the unit is isolated from the rest of the medical center, with its own ventilation system, security access and highly trained staff about 100 nurses, therapists, Critical Care and Infectious Disease doctors. How many patients can you treat at one time . Dr. Angela hewlett we could actually accept up to probably eight patients in the biocontainment unit, totally dependent on how sick they are and how much equipment is required. Whitaker how many facilities like this are there around the country . Hewlett we have ten Regional Treatment Centers with those capabilities. Whitaker given the scope of this outbreak, that doesnt seem nearly enough. And when i see the isopods being used to bring people into this facility, that makes me think that this is pretty bad. Hewlett if we had a a therapeutic agent that we knew worked, or if we had a vaccine that could help prevent the spread of this illness, then you know, then this would be something a little more controllable than what we have now. Whitaker researchers at the university of Nebraska Medical Center modeled a worst Case Scenario in the u. S. Over the course of a year, 96 million cases of covid19; 4. 8 million hospitalizations; almost a halfmillion deaths. Scientists hope the measures the country is taking will keep the worst from happening, but the urgency of this moment has medical researchers all over the world racing to find some way to fight the killer virus. Last month, the National Institutes of health tapped the Nebraska Medical Center to launch the first Clinical Trial in the u. S. Of an antiviral drug, remdesivir, which is administered intravenously to treat patients who have already contracted the virus. Its being tested against a placebo. Hewlett it was actually studied in ebola, interestingly. Didnt work as well for ebola. However, there have been some Animal Studies as as well as some studies in the lab that demonstrate that it worked fairly well against illnesses like sars and mers, which are also coronaviruses. Whitaker how does the drug work . Hewlett it inhibits replication of the virus, and so when a virus would normally try to reproduce itself, this drug inserts itself into that process and then stops viral replication, so it stops reproduction of the virus. Whitaker this Clinical Trial is up and running in the middle of this outbreak. Hewlett i will say this is the fastest Clinical Trial that ive ever seen come to to fruition in this amount of time. Whitaker ordinarily, how long would it take to get a trial up and running . Hewlett that can range from many months to to years. Whitaker the maker of the antiviral remdesivir, Gilead Sciences in california, is ramping up production to provide multiple Clinical Trials in the u. S. , asia, and europe. The u. S. Army also is testing the drug. With no proven treatments, hundreds of trials of different drugs are underway worldwide. Researchers in the u. S. And china are investigating whether the common antimalarial drug chloroquine and related drugs might inhibit the virus. In new york, Regeneron Pharmaceuticals is testing a cocktail of antibodies to see if they can temporarily boost immune systems to fight the virus. Scripps research in san diego is using a robot to go through its Extensive Library of existing drugs looking for antiviral compounds to send to labs around the world to test if any combination might prove effective in combating the new coronavirus and quell the pandemic. Kate broderick i cant express to you the pressure that i personally feel under, and i think the whole Scientific Community feels under. Theres a great deal of responsibility in working towards a solution for this outbreak, literally as its happening. Whitaker scottishborn Kate Broderick is Senior Vice President of research and development at Inovio Pharmaceuticals in san diego. Employees are working against the clock to create a vaccine to prevent people from ever getting the virus. Inovio is using d. N. A. Biotechnology, cutting edge science that has yet to produce a marketable vaccine. How optimistic are you that this is the solution . Broderick i feel very confident in the technology that weve developed here at inovio, and i feel very cautiously optimistic that our vaccine will be effective when we test it in the clinic. Whitaker inovio has already started testing its vaccine on animals and expects to start human trials next month. The companys race to create a vaccine was triggered by this the genetic sequence of the new coronavirus. Chinese scientists posted it online just weeks after the outbreak was identified. Broderick all we need is that genetic code. So its just a series of as, and ts, and cs, and gs that make up the blueprint to the virus. We use a computer algorithm to generate the design of the vaccine. So we plugged in the viral sequence. And after three hours, we had a fully designed vaccine on paper. And then, after that, the stages to manufacture went straight into effect. Whitaker three hours . Broderick yeah, absolutely. Whitaker is that unusually fast . Broderick certainly, if youre thinking of traditional vaccines. They take months to years. These little parts of the virus. Whitaker using the genetic code, inovio scientists are able to zero in on the part of the deadly virus, these spikes, that attach to human cells. They then recreate that bit of coronavirus d. N. A. In the lab. The synthetic snippet of virus is grown inside bacteria. After sloshing around all night, there are thousands, if not millions of copies of the synthetic d. N. A. Filtered and processed it looks like this. The vaccine is made from this liquid. Broderick then its injected into the subject or the patient. And your own body is able to react and mount what we call an immune response against that part of the virus. Stephen hoge i dont feel like we get to choose when an epidemic happens. We just get to decide how were going to respond. And what weve decided to do is try and use our platform to bring forward a safe and effective vaccine. Whitaker former emergency room doctor stephen hoge is president of moderna, a boston area Biotechnology Company also working on a vaccine. We met dr. Hoge shortly after the c. D. C. Recommended social distancing. Teaming up with the n. I. H. , moderna started human trials last week in seattle, where the north american outbreak took hold. 45 Healthy Volunteers will receive injections over six weeks and be monitored for a year to see if the vaccine is safe. Moderna started work on the vaccine as soon as china posted the virus genetic sequence online. So how long did it take you to go from getting this Genetic Information to actually having a vaccine ready for human trial . Hoge 25 days. It was released to the clinic within 42 days. Dr. Tony fauci called it the i think the world indoor record. But its definitely faster than we think anybodys done before. Whitaker modernas process pushes the envelope of biotechnology. Its scientists manipulate the genetic code to instruct cells what to do in this case trigger the bodys immune system to fight the new coronavirus. Hoge once you realize that you can essentially put a softwarelike program into a cell the opportunities to address human disease are pretty broad. Whitaker how did your relatively small biotech get to be the first one to go into human trials . Hoge some of that has the advantage of the technology were using. It allows us to move incredibly quickly when we have a pandemic situation like the one were in. Whitaker so you you have never brought a vaccine to market using this technology. Hoge no. We have not. Whitaker have not . Hoge we have not yet. Whitaker the National Institutes of health is collaborating with moderna to accelerate the development of a coronavirus vaccine. They hope to start a second phase of human trials in a few months. The whole world is sort of watching and waiting. So, if you find that this works, when will people be able to start getting vaccines . Hoge well, if were able to show theres a clear benefit were going to need to be able to make sure that its accessible to everybody who needs it. And so weve actually already started the investment to scale up supply into the millions of doses. But ultimately what we really need to focus on is generating the Clinical Data that shows that the vaccine, in fact, does have a benefit, that its safe and effective. Whitaker this is the purest form broderick this is this is the purest form of the d. N. A. Whitaker Kate Broderick of inovio told Us Technology is accelerating vaccine development, but its no match for peoples expectations. What is the realistic timeline for this vaccine being administered to the public . Broderick were hoping to have our vaccine tested in what we call a large, phase two trial by the end of the year, which would be potentially hundreds, if not thousands, of subjects being treated. But to have it rolled out to the public is likely to take longer than that. Whitaker so the best Case Scenario is more than a year. Any way to speed up that process . Broderick really, i i have to say, were going as absolutely fast as we possibly can. Whitaker with the number of people with the virus growing exponentially and deaths climbing inexorably that timeline just doesnt seem fast enough. With so much human suffering, hospitals in the u. S. , europe and japan have given several hundred desperate patients the experimental antiviral drug, remdesivir, for what is called compassionate use. Thats the drug being studied in Clinical Trial at the university of Nebraska Medical Center. Hewlett we want to make sure that, you know, were not giving drugs to people that could have side effects. Whitaker now i know you dont know whos getting the drug and whos getting the placebo, but from what youve observed of the patients who are in the trial, what have you seen . Hewlett so we have seen patients improve. Hewlett but it its hard to tell if they wouldve just gotten better on their own, or if was due to the drug. And thats the reason that we really need to study this drug in this fashion. Whitaker director of the c. D. C. , dr. Robert redfield, told congress this month we should know in a matter of weeks whether remdesivir is effective. But until a proven treatment and vaccine are available to fight this pandemic, doctors and researchers will keep working at a fevered pitch. Is this like a race to get to a vaccine . Hoge not really. Whitaker how would you describe it . Hoge theres a lot of fear out there right now. And there is a competition, but its not between the companies. Its between all of us and the virus. Its not us and them. Its us versus it. And the only way were going to beat the coronavirus is all working together. No one group, no one company can possibly expect to do this alone. ticking for more on coverage of the coronavirus, go to 60minutesovertime. Com sponsored by coroguard. I took your advice and asked my doctor to order cologuard, that noninvasive colon Cancer Screening test. The delivery guy just dropped it off. Our doctor says it uses advanced science. 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S. , virus related layoffs are expected to be measured in the millions and soon. For insight into whats coming, we found someone with responsibilities over the economy now, and who helped pull the u. S. Out of the Great Recession of 2008. That person is Neel Kashkari, president of the Federal Reserve bank of minneapolis. In 2008, he was the treasury official in charge of the 700billion rescue of the financial system. We met kashkari this past thursday for an eyeopening look at the stock market freefall, the nearfreeze in the bond markets and a prediction for this economic emergency. Neel kashkari millions of people are going to lose their jobs. And thats whats so scary about this. Pelley are we in a recession . Kashkari if were not right now, we will be soon. My best Case Scenario is well at least have a mild recession like after 9 11. The worst case would be wed have a deep recession like the 2008 financial crisis. We just dont know right now. Pelley and whats keeping us from knowing with any certainty . Kashkari nobody knows how the virus is going to progress, how Many Americans are going to get it, how effective is social distancing going to be, how long will it take the Health Care System to catch up . Pelley nationwide, last week there were almost 300,000 people filing first claims for unemployment benefits. Kashkari it could be five times that amount next week. Maybe more. Pelley where is the bottom . Kashkari if this is a three month shutdown, well find the bottom pretty soon. If this is a yearlong shutdown, this could be very damaging to the u. S. Economy, and most importantly, to the american people. Pelley 46yearold Neel Kashkari has been president of the Federal Reserve bank of minneapolis since 2016. Hes the son of indian immigrants and literally a rocket scientist. As an engineer, he worked on nasa spacecraft. After wharton business school, he joined investment firm, goldman sachs. In 2008, as assistant treasury secretary, kashkari ran the 700billion troubled asset relief program, known as tarp, that helped end the Great Recession. Kashkari was the republican nominee for governor of california in 2014. Today, he is one of 12 Federal Reserve Regional Bank president s who oversee and support the nations largest banks. Kashkari i heard from a bank in our region a welltodo customer came in and said, i want to withdraw 600,000 of cash. Now, we can supply all the cash that the banks need to meet their customers concerns, but it just speaks to the fear and the uncertainty that is rippling through the economy. Pelley will the Federal Reserve ensure that banks have all the cash they need to satisfy whatever withdrawals may be coming . Kashkari yes. This is the fundamental reason the Federal Reserve exists. We call it lender of last resort, this is literally why Central Banks exist. If everybody gets scared at the same time and they demand their money back, thats why the Federal Reserve is here, is to make sure that theres liquidity, that theres money to meet those demands. We will absolutely meet those demands. Pelley is the fed just going to print money . Kashkari thats literally what congress has told us to do. Thats the authority that theyve given us, to print money and provide liquidity into the financial system. And thats how we do it. We create it electronically. And then we can also print it with the Treasury Department, print it so that you can get money out of your atm. Pelley are the banks sound . Kashkari they are right now. Now, were hearing from big businesses across the country, including in minnesota, that big businesses are drawing down their credit lines. Theyre borrowing money from the banks just because theyre nervous. And if theyre all drawing down these credit lines at the same time, it puts stress on the banking system. And thats where the Federal Reserve steps in to provide that liquidity to make sure that the banks have enough money to get out to their customers. Pelley the dow has tumbled about 35 . But Something Else is wrong. Some investors lost confidence in bonds which normally do well in troubled times. The bond markets finance government, corporations, and by extension, homebuyers. And the stresses youre seeing in the bond market are what . Kashkari well, we were seeing stresses this week in the treasury market and in the Mortgage Backed security market. And thats why the fed stepped in with this very aggressive action to provide liquidity to those markets. We saw stresses in the commercial paper market, which is another type of bond market. And were still seeing stresses in the municipal market, where state governments and cities fund themselves, and in the Corporate Bond market. So, were not out of the woods yet. Pelley and by stresses, you mean what . Kashkari theres just a freezing up of new financings for corporations. Thats something im very focused on. We need to get that market open again. Because we dont want blue chip American Companies, who have customers, who are operating, we dont want this virus to creep into their businesses because theyre not able to raise money to meet their basic operational needs. We need them to keep running. Pelley solid bluechip American Companies are having trouble borrowing money . Kashkari its more expensive for them to borrow money. Say someones saying, im going to go issue 1 billion of debt to go fund my new factory, those arent taking place right now. Pelley people are shunning u. S. Treasury bonds, which are always thought to be the safest possible investment . Kashkari it is. Now, keep in mind, treasury bond prices are still very high relative to history. Theyve just been just not quite as high as they were a few weeks ago. So they still are viewed as a very safe investment, very attractive for a lot of people. But this fear of where the virus is going to go is leading people to say, i just want cash. And if thats cash under my mattress or in my safe, ill sleep better at night. Pelley whats it going to take to get the bond markets working again . Kashkari i think a combination of factors. I think Congress Taking bold action to say theyre standing behind the u. S. Economy, the 1 trillion stimulus theyre talking about. I think thatll help. I think continued actions from the Federal Reserve will help. And i think more confidence that the Health Care System is catching up to the crisis. Pelley this past sunday, the fed dropped Interest Rates nearly to zero. Then every day last week it announced emergency lending programs. It pledged to spend at least 700billion supporting mortgages, banks, money market mutual funds, Corporate Bonds and lending to Central Banks of other countries because the dollar is the currency of world trade. Kashkari were being very aggressive. And i think our chairman, jay powell, has learned from the experience of 2008. Were moving much faster than we moved in 2008. Were being more aggressive. Is there more we can do . Yes. Is there more we may end up doing . Yes. But i think were being very aggressive. I think thats the right thing. Pelley can you characterize everything that the fed has done this past week as essentially flooding the system with money . Kashkari yes. Exactly. Pelley and theres no end to your ability to do that . Kashkari there is no end to our ability to do that. Pelley what did we learn from 2008 when you were in the Treasury Department . And how is that being applied today . Kashkari therere two big mistakes when i look back at 2008 that we made that i think are relevant today. Number one, we were always too slow and too timid in responding to the crisis. The reason is we didnt know how bad it was gonna get. And we didnt want to overreact. And it turned out it got really, really bad. And the right answer shouldve been overreacting to try to avoid the devastating recession that we ended up happening. So today, whether its Health Care Policy makers, fiscal policy makers, which Means Congress or the Federal Reserve, we should all be erring on the side of overreacting to try to avoid the worst economic outcomes. And number two, in 2008, we tried to be very targeted in helping homeowners. Only helping homeowners who needed a little bit of help because a lot of americans were angry at the thought of their neighbor getting a bailout for being irresponsible or so they thought. So we tried to target our program. It ended up we didnt help very many people. We wouldve been much better off if we had been much more generous in our support for homeowners, deserving and not deserving. We wouldve had a less crisis. So my advice to congress as theyre designing their programs to help workers and to help Small Businesses, err on being generous. Pelley when america gets back to work, how long does it take to recover from this . Kashkari you know, the economy can bounce back fairly quickly. Its the workers that take time. I mean, thats the one of the other lessons from 2008. It took more than ten years to put america fully back to work, relative to where they were before the crisis. Ten years. And so thats what we have to try to avoid, having these mass layoffs. We cant have another tenyear recovery. Pelley the deadline for filing taxes, both personal and business, has been postponed until july. This past week the house and the Senate Proposed trillion dollar emergency spending plans. The bills envision sending government checks directly to households, expansion of unemployment insurance, Corporate Tax cuts and relief for small business. Republicans and democrats are haggling over the details. Well, what do the Small Businesses need . Kashkari i think that they need forgivable loans. Like, its much better if we can keep Small Businesses to retain their workers than to lay them off. Pelley what do you mean by forgivable loans . Kashkari ive heard a proposal that if the government made a loan to a small business, if they retain their workers, the government would forgive the loan after a couple years. Just to avoid the mass layoffs that were starting to see right now. Pelley sort of a bridge loan to get the local restaurant or the local mechanic through this period of time . Kashkari thats right. And importantly, keeping their workers employed. Thats much better because once people are lost into the emk. Lines, it just takes a long pelley the Federal Reserve system as we know it was set up in the Great Depression to regulate big banks, sets Interest Rates, and be the source of all cash. Thats why every bill in your pocket is inscribed, Federal Reserve note. The feds mandate is to provide the highest rate of employment with the lowest rate of inflation. But in 2008, it invoked its authority for the first time to take the role of emergency first responder. If the current measures are not enough, what else can the fed do . Kashkari well, we have very broad authorities with our emergency lending authorities that have to be done in concert with the treasury secretary. Weve announced a couple of those measures this week on money markets and commercial paper as an example. Some people have suggested that we should be providing more support directly to the Corporate Bond market. And im sympathetic with those views and also the municipal market. Making sure that states and cities are able to access the Capital Markets as well. So, theres a range of things that Federal Reserve could do. Were far from out of ammunition. Pelley far from out of ammunition. Sunday, the Federal Reserve lowered its benchmark Interest Rate to zero. Can you go below zero . Kashkari in theory, we could. Some countries have. I dont think many of us i dont think any of us on the committee think thats a particularly good idea. It creates other challenges for financial markets. But in the last crisis, weve used something called quantitative easing, buying long term bonds. Weve got a lot more experience in how to do that. It didnt trigger inflation. So, therere other tools that weve used before that i think we could also use again in using it aggressively. Pelley states face an enormous surge in unemployment claims. Connecticut alone, which normally has a little over 2,000 claims a week, saw 72,000 last week. When the National Number of new claims for unemployment is released thursday, its expected to be in the millions. The fed is watching china and south korea where the outbreak appears to be subsiding. What are you seeing in china . Kashkari well, china appears to be turning back on. And they are telling a very good story that theyve got their arms around this, they dont have new cases. But if, at the same time, theyre saying lots of people had the disease with no symptoms. So, unless youve tested everybody, how do you know that youve really got this under control . And as you relax the economic control, does the virus simply flare back up again . We just dont know yet. Pelley to the person who is about to grab their car keys and go to the a. T. M. And take out 3,000, you say what . Kashkari you dont need to. Your a. T. M. Is safe. Your banks are safe. Theres enough cash in the financial system. And theres an infinite amount of cash at the Federal Reserve. We will do whatever we need to do to make sure that theres enough cash in the banking system. Pelley are you optimistic or pessimistic . Kashkari overall, im optimistic. Having been at the frontline of the 2008 financial crisis and i saw how devastating that was, we did get through it. It was very painful for millions of americans. We did get through it. We will get through this crisis. ticking stinctly ] ladies, my friends and i are having a debate. I have a back rash. Alright. Whoa, mara. I laugh like this. [ laughs obnoxiously ] its just not my scene. I couldnt help but over do you like insurance . I love insurance. Did you know you can save money bundling home and auto with progressive, and renters can bundle, too . I know, right . [ laughs ] [ singing continues ] whyd you stop . I was listening. [ microphone feedback ] i felt gross. It was kind of a shock after i started cosentyx. Four years clear. Real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. 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Oundwhat does it look like on we went to hungary to see populism in practice, examining a specific Government Program, designed to stimulate birthrate in the face of a sharply declining population. The hungarian government has taken over most private fertility clinics, offering free treatments, and also gives away cash, loans and even, get this subsidies to buy minivans to young couples who become new parents. Its an effort to, keep hungary hungarian, as the slogan goes. But peel back the layers and it reveals Something Else entirely social engineering designed to yield only a certain kind of hungarian baby. Its an almost relentlessly pleasant saturday outside of budapest. The skanzen park has been transformed into a festival of good, clean allages fun, balloons and comic books and piggybacks. Its the annual celebration sponsored by hungarys association of large families and for the first time there is a mass wedding, five couples embarking on marriage in front of hundreds of their closest friends. Katalin novak, hungarys minister of state for family and Youth Affairs is onhand as well, spreading the governments message of clan and country. It is good to share their joy, she says. Which is why the government protects the marriage of man and woman, and why we protect the families and children in hungary. She spearheads what is termed the Family Protection action plan. This sweeping Government Program was unveiled last year, at a cost of 2. 5 billion, thats five percent of hungarys g. D. P. ; four times what the country spends on military. The plan offers couples who have three kids, a subsidy to get one of these minivans. Zoltan benko i mean, the car sounds nice. But two, three kids. I mean, i mean, i think thats thats all we can handle right now. I mean, even in imaginary terms. Its not just minivans theyre offering. Wertheim almost like a prize list at an arcade the mere promise to have one child, gets you a 30,000 loan. Rates are slashed after two kids, and forgiven after three. Commit to having four kids or more . Mom doesnt have to pay income tax for life. Terms and conditions apply, and the plan isnt open to everyone. But it does address a huge problem that the country faces a low birth rate and the hemorrhaging of people. Hungarys population, now under 10 million, has declined for 37 straight years. Its a curious place, hungary, a mix of eastern and western europe. Its capital, budapest, is a regal city, divided by the danube, buda on one side and pest on the other. It trades on its classic grandeur and nods to the past. Budapest has long been a city of sensual pleasures and its thermal baths, taking the waters, as its called, has adjusted for the times. The place has a language and cuisine like no other. And for centuries, hungary has been a sort of territorial football, passed around among turks and germans, hapsburgs and communists. After world war ii, hungary was part of the soviet bloc. In 1989 hungary set off a chain of events that brought down the berlin wall. In may, hungary began cutting down the barbed wire, becoming the first east bloc country with an open border. Wertheim hungary might have been the first country to puncture the iron curtain, but 30 years later, it is at the vanguard of the european right. So much so that hungarians we asked, struggled to characterize the countrys current form of government. Do you not feel youre living in a democracy right now . Anna donath well, its a tricky question, because by law and regulation, its a democratic country. Wertheim anna donath is a hungarian member of the europeae momentum party, a political upstart which opposes the government thats now been in power for ten years. Donath it would be too easy to say thatthat its a dictatorship. Its not. Its clearly not. We can say that its an autocratic regime, but autocracy is a scale. Wertheim Hungarian Prime Minister victor orban certainly doesnt see himself as an autocrat. He popularized a term to describe his regime, illiberal democracy. You heard that right illiberal democracy. Its a system governed by a forceful ruler with a public that wont or cant fall out of step. The European Union has deep concerns about hungarys membership. It recently voted to sanction the country, accusing orban of systematically rolling back democracy and it has leveled charges that read like a sort te constitution, restricting freedom of speech and stacking the courts. Orbans policies, though, have been delivered not as brutally forceful blows, but as well placed jabs gradual, subtle, and, arguably, above the belt. Orban and his manipulative maneuvers provoke outrage among opponents but also draw a measure of grudging respect. How do you describe viktor orban . Donath hes a genius in one hand. Wertheim genius . Donath hes a political strategist. Wertheim you take serious his power . Donath well, actually, you can feel it in your skin in everyday life in hungary, you feel thathis power. There is a higher power, a big brother, watching you everywhere, listening what you are saying. Wertheim orbans creeping control is presented as reasonable public policy. On the face of it, the Family Protection plan does make it easier for families to have kids. But it doesnt take much to shade into something darker. Just listen to the speaker of hungarys parliament at a conference last september in europe those who propagate that having children is a private matter, are serving the culture of death, he says. Countries with declining population, are becoming houses of coffins and not cradles. That sounds very dystopian, very dramatic. Donath well, there is youre right. And its absolutely horrifying. And me, as a young woman who just got married and wants to start a family, im sorry, but i dont want to accept that my Prime Minister, my government, the state wants to tell me what kind of family and how i should start with. And they are actually blaming me that im 32 and i dont have a kid yet. Wertheim do you feel that . Donath and they said that im supporting the culture of death, whatever it means. Actually, this makes us really, really angry. Wertheim and she highlights a glaring irony in all this. The same government that strenuously tries to boost population, also goes to extraordinary lengths to keep nonhungarians out. In 2015, hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants, most from the middle east, passed through hungary. They were told they were not welcome to stay. We must state that we do not want to be diverse and do not want to be mixed, orban said in a speech last year. We do not want our color, traditions and National Culture to be mixed with those of others. We do not want to be a diverse country. Peter kreko, a social psychologist, is head of the Political Capital institute, a budapest think tank. He says that though hungary is overwhelmingly white, orban paints migrants as the enemy, a threat to hungarys homogeneity. Peter kreko stories being that refugees and migrants are all around. They are stabbing the people. They are raping the women. They are killing everyone. There is no rule of law. Wertheim how does this new Family Protection plan, how does that fit into orbans overall strategy . Kreko how does it fit in one sentence . We dont want migrants. We wantwant hungarian mothers togive birth to more children this is how we want to solve the demographic crisis. Wertheim for Prime Minister orban, it reduces to a simple concept procreation not immigration. He did what President Trump promised to do in 2015, orban slammed hungarys gates shut, building, essentially a border wall, a 500 million fence, 180 miles long, on the southern border with serbia. Attention, attention, im warning you that youre at the hungarian border. Wertheim laszlo toroczkai, the mayor of the small border town of asotthalom, was one of the loudest voices urging the hungarian government to erect the fence. When he got his wish, he became something of a populist, cult hero. This is about preservingwe keep hearing, european values. What does that mean . Laszlo toroczkai for me, the european culture, the european values, are the classical music. Mozart. Beethoven. Tchaikovsky. The european values. Wertheim it goes beyond pleasures of the ear, though. He also objects to mixing tastes. Toroczkai the foods, the european foods. For example, the donerkebab in berlin, budapest. I would like to eat the doner kebab in istanbul. Wertheim were spending a half a billion dollars on a fence to keep out doner kebabs . Toroczkai you know, we need this border fence to preserve our safe country. Wertheim in the same town, we found sandor nagy, whos part of the mayors posse, patrolling for migrants. You might think he would be precisely the kind of person to benefit from the Family Protection plan. After all, he and his wife moved from budapest to raise their eight children in this pastoral paradise. But hes excluded. Not enough savings to qualify. This really helps families if they have enough capital and their own money, he says, but i think there are many families in the country who do not have their own basic capital and the plan cannot help them. And they are not alone. Other hungarians have found selvesneligible because they are gay, unmarried, divorced. Read the fine print, and this becomes clear the Family Protection plan only seeks to protect what the government sees as the right kinds of families. Prime minister orban seldom speaks to western media, but we did speak with secretary of state katalin novak, who says the plan is entirely consistent with hungarian values. Katalin novak we speak about not only preserving western civilization, we also to say it openly that Christian Culture we would like to preserve. Wertheim Christian Culture . Novak yeah, thats the way of life in europe, in hungary, that we have a christian way of life. Wertheim when you hear your colleagues in government, including the Prime Minister, talk about ethnic homogeneity and the dangers of mixing blood and purity, can you see how people perhaps dont hear echoes of some of europes darker chapters in those remarks . Novak it makes me upset, because i think it means that people who have this interpretation either dont really know what they are talking about, or dont know hungary. Wertheim and youre saying, theres no code in that. Theres no code when we talk about keep hungary hungarian or pure hungarians, or we talk in terms of purity. Theres no novak but n,ou unan. Why . What we dont say that. We say, keep hungary hungarian, thats true. We say that. Wertheim while more than 100,000 couples have already taken advantage of the incentives, its too early to tell whether the Family Protection plan will actually be effective, whether it will cause the desired population bounceor deepen a rift in hungary, much like the danube cleaves budapest. ticking end of a journey . Or the beginning of something even better . When you prepare for retirement with pacific life, you can create a lifelong income. So you have the freedom to keep doing whatever is most meaningful to you. A reliable income that lets you retire, without retiring from life. Thats the power of pacific. Ask your financial professional about pacific life today. For adults with moderately to severely active crohns disease, stelara® works differently. 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