Transcripts For DW Conflict 20240702

This is worse between israelis and palestinians, and at any point on which i worked on this issue, including during the 2nd intifada, b i. C, cs announcement comes at a time when as well as human rights record is on the minute scrutiny. With investigations by major Media Outlets into violence by jewish settlers, kind of a palestinian state ever a much from so much conflict on page. Dennis ross, welcome to complex zone. Basically with you. Lets start with the announcement from the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal court. Arrest warrants have never been sold before for his reading. Any doesnt as a storm of protest, not only from those names, but from across all political factions in israel. What if i do think that this will have on israels conduct of the more if the warrants are approved by pre trial judges . I dont think it will have a positive effect. I think it creates in the minds of most as rarely is across the political spectrum. That a moral equivalence is being established between those who came in with the express purpose of deliberately killing get a sense, a kid having people as young as 9 months old. A rating uh, just engaging in the unspeakable violence brutality. And made a very deliberate determined way, uh and your greeting, in a sense youre saying youre treating them and the same as your effectively treating it as of a state who are responding to this kind of a saw a, there certainly are issues that i think the prosecution is raising about the way the israelites have inducted the war, but most of the writers will see this as a, as creating a moral equivalence where there is no, its not. And i, the absence of that, i think, with, in terms of us as rarely, it will be, that they need to, they need to prosecute the war and, and try to ensure that they defeated a mazda in a way. Because in the sense theyre going to fear that and then no circumstances will ever be seen as being justified in terms of defending themselves against these kinds of attacks. Whether thats a correct perception should exist or not. That is a perception im afraid, will exist year to be fair to the prosecutor here. He didnt suggest there was any moral equivalence on the country. The, the way that its being explained by him and by as officials is that if evidence is brought to him, problem of facia evidence is brought to him of crimes committed on both sides of a conflict. He has a duty to act and to pursue that evidence. And this is one way in which hes doing it by seeking arrest warrants for those who have been named. What other choice did he actually have . But i think there is an excellent question here in terms of timing goes, it was an expectation he was going to visit israel and have discussions prior to coming out with this. And obviously he did not do that. But it does strike me that it might have been again, just from a practical pragmatic standpoint. It might have made more sense to be here in advance before he issued me. But obviously you chose not to do that. Theres the penalty as it is, i have to say is this serious panel . I think the problem, however, is im suggesting is by not having come here before releasing this. I think its contributed to the kind of very broad reaction. You have people who are extremely critical of Prime Minister netanyahu. Were also quite critical of this. So a little bit more could have been done in the set the stage, i suspect, but we are, we are, if these very serious jobs use a not to be tested by the i c. C. Where else would they be heard . Again, its not, its not clear, but i think theres a, theres a larger issue here that auto be kept in mind. And that is when you buy an enemy that deliberately uses its civilian population, not just as a shield that really is a hostage, or youre putting a position where, what are the choices you have not to go after them given what is going to be this way and consequence, and therefore it faces again or go after them. And unfortunately there is it going to be as and be and consequences out. I will grab one of the things that these really should have done. Ive made an argument this for the very beginning of the war. They should have been much more forthcoming with humanitarian assistance. They should have gone out of their way to demonstrate this was an effort to and then imperative to, to see a mouse and not to punish the pals to angel live in god. And israel did not act in that way, and it made it easier for those to portray what theyre doing in a way that is us outside of what, outside the bounds of acceptability. What is, again, the reality is israel was faced with a very cruel dilemma. You have an enemy, the care is not one, wait for the wellbeing of its own public is quite ready to expose them. Doesnt mind visual because a lot of allison in fact seems to relish that prospect. But this is what you, what do you seem to be outlined is that this is a water shed moment for International Justice . Isnt that i really do think theres a question here about how we, we may have to redefine International Humanitarian law. I mean other one and you still have an obligation to try to minimize the casualties of 2 civilians, noncombatants, thats an obligation that shouldnt change. But how the tactics you can use, how you go about doing that. How do you agree and a clear distinction between those who are using your windshield as a deliberate, tactful, and those who have to contend with that . I do think this, this is an issue that were long overdue, trying to come to grips with how we can better decide unit assets that you read it during law given these guides of non state actors and given their, the tactics that they employed, whatever system. But uh, you want to walk towards or you think that the International Community should work towards um, to provide some kind of justice in situations like this. But were not going to be able to live in a world where accountability is, was enemies, not friends, isnt that the question . Does that is forcing everyone to consider it as well . I think it is, it least in part, but i dont think its coming to grips with the question ive been posing, which is, what is a legitimate strategy . But were trying to root out the enemy a non state act, or is it seems youre gonna have to have international out during law. It cant simply be one which says ok, you, youre entitled to strike back, but you have to minimize civilian casualties. What if it turns out that the choices for, for minimizing civilian casualties is quite limited. I mean, there is Something Else that could have been done. Something else it could have been done is a, a situation like this. Maybe International Humanitarian law. Should say there needs to be a period uh there needs to be areas where people can be evacuated, so theyre not as theyre not as shields. I mean, what separates, for example, as the United States approach the lose yet i is that the, the people who lived in felicia were actually allowed to leave me a rock in iraq in iraq. Yes, they were allowed to leave, they could, they could leave the city. The problem here and guys are good, so small, theyre not allowed to leave. That one finds in every war zone. Is it people leave it look at syria or about 5 and a half 1000000 people left fled syria. It was a simple thing to do with 5 and a half 1000000 people. Lets. Lets serious in gaza the people are not allowed to leave. So one of the, i think one of the challenges for and it actually matter a lot is to be able to come up with if youre trying to predict the wellbeing of civilians, which is a, its not just a moral imperative. Of course, its a moral imperative. It should be a political imperative as well. But they, what do you think you have to come up with . It is strategies for evacuation that the International Community can facilitate. As a way of ensuring that if awards bank fight against those who are using human chills, it leasing and asking community is doing everything. It can us just in terms of providing you manage right assistance, but in terms of getting them out of harms way. And it doesnt mean help the situation that has it by the fact that some of the reporting about is rails behavior by the administration in the states has been contradictory on may the 10th the state, the bottom and wrote to congress with its most detailed assessment of as well as conduct and it concluded that as well had most likely violated International Standards in failing to protect civilians in gaza. But setting up the same time, it is not found specific instances, but with justified coughing, military aid. The department was immediately accused of a fudge. Democratic senator chris ron holland, told reporters if this conduct complies with International Standards, then god help us. Oh, he hasnt point, doesnt the he does, but i guess i keep coming back to the issue that rational standards. International standards have not adjusted to a reality where you have an enemy to use as human shields. So we end up judging the actor who has been attack as a then try to root out those who are using human shoes. But how do you explain the apparent contradictions in the state Department Report . On the one hand, it includes the contents of both action and in action by israel have slowed the flow of age into gaza. But on the other, it says we dont currently assess these ran the government is prohibiting or otherwise restricting the transport or delivery of us, you monetary and the systems into the in other words, slowing the flow is not restricting it. Of course it is. You guys think what you will, you have is that you have really, i think youre raising 2 different kinds of issues. One issue has to do with the use of weapons. Thats where you were 1st rate. And now the 2nd thing youre raising is the issue of the provision of nevada tried assistance to go in, in the quantities that it should have been remitted on the farm. Or i think with the state department was finding was that they were looking at the totality of the, of the people, the numbers of People Killed and said, almost by definition we dropped inclusion that this must have been done. And force must have been done in a way inconsistent with International Manager a lot on the other. And we dont have specific instances of what that was done. I can understand that too. Well. The other issue ranging about averys probation. If the provision of International Humanitarian assistance, i share that view, the fact that it is not popular here with huge really body all to who have separate greatly from october 7th and who every day see what a mouse is doing by folding hostage is increasing numbers of them no longer being alive and there the body politic here is not feeling very sympathetic to the god and population who they see somehow being and leave with. Im us. My own view is the god in the population is a victim of on loss, not only with a moss and the israels approach to the war needed to separate um, us from the population of guys. And lets talk about the state of us as well. Relations of a now as bad as youve known it during the course of your career. I think its, were certainly at a low point, but i wonder how much its us israel and its just the leadership. I do think that there is a norm as restoration with Prime Minister netanyahu. I dont think that extends necessarily to all as rarely and not necessarily even to everyone in the, in the current government. But i do think there is growing frustration with him present bidens always had a, a Good Relationship with him. I think its become very frustrated for a variety of reasons. One is that a number of occasions by minister and thats and you always made promises to him and not filled those promises. And i think that is contributed greatly to the frustration that, that he feels, you know, do i think this is something that can be overcome, at least between us and intro. Yes, because i dont see this necessarily is ecstatic of the 2 countries. Right now. I think theres a problem between the 2 leaderships. Well have to see how that plays out on the limiting of weapons supplies. To israel, you quoted a mistake. What the administration of done saying it took all the pressure off the how mosley the yeah, hoss and why im pressure on him was the key to a hostage deal. But present bite is someone whos old, but accused is rileys of war crimes by saying theyve been bombing indiscriminately if he goes on giving them those same american bombs to continue that indiscriminate bombing. It makes him look weak. Doesnt that complicit . Well i think yeah, you can, i think you can kind of present this over you choose the present at the. The fact is, issac, hes trying to strike a balance. He wants an outcome where im us, who not only committed terrible atrocities on october 7th, but continues to do it with the way it, it brutalizes a hostages in an old. Theres a almost seems to be kind of international and difference do what a mouse is doing to the hostage. Because obviously theres not the difference here in israel, where for all the families their life was growing on october 7th. And the case of a president binding the he wants to be sure the outcome is an outcome where im also no longer in control of does it. Whereas it can no longer be a platform where jacks against israel. And hes trying to strike a balance between how do you achieve that objective and at the same time, conduct of the war in a way that tries to minimize the level of damage and destruction done to your house and you live in god. Its a very hard water, very hard balance, and stripe one can, one can try to be pure in one direction or the other, but then youre not going to achieve what is the most important object. And i dont think the, its very important to find a way to end this war with this war also needs to end in a way where a mazda is not in a position, whereas any possibility of, of grouping. Another reason surely for withholding weapons is to as well is that american tax pass a funding that is really offensive, but the majority of them now appear to be again, some of the latest polls show 55 percent of americans against 36 percent who support israel conduct of the war. Dont you think that the prospect is pretty worrying for the buy, but ministration and 6 months away from a president ial election . Is that one of their calculations . I, im sure all of the things being a little, youre the president United States, youre in an Election Year. This is an issue that almost by definition is not how whole. So you would undoubtedly liked to see this over as soon as possible. And while and yet at the same time while the present watched is over as soon as possible. He doesnt want out where somehow my boss is able to recruit and wrist out. So it is, this is not the last time well see. It is a mouse. Has shown not the slightest bit of interest in developing gaza, not the slightest bit of interest in do and providing well the for the well being. That was on top of the bill for miles of tiles under ground. All the materials that didnt used and then building those tunnels, all the materials that it used and building a military Industrial Base underground. All of that could been used on the service uh to the advanced guys and the wellbeing of the people there. It did not have that, and if it had a chance, itll do this all over again. So you understand, of course, the president watsons over. It will be much better for the present, especially in Election Year if this was no longer an issue. But he doesnt want, you know, right away where im asking do this again or can reconstitute itself and subject everybody, palestinians that is really light to another round like this. This is also a time when israel is human rights record is being under some of the most intense scrutiny, not least because of multiple cases of set, the violence against palestinians in the west bank. How concerned are you again, that despite repeated International Warnings about that very little is being done to cub it . Well, i think one of the challenges is again you with this is rarely government and you have a couple, a very extreme minister is why im who because administer a National Security spending of the or a and he often times looks like youre terms of lined. I, to what extreme is settlers do . Israel presents itself as a rule of law, and it has to act that way. And with many of the extreme is settlers, including those right now are trying to blot deliveries of assistance to bows that the law needs to be enforced on them. There needs to be more demonstration of that. And if there isnt, the administration is right to single out and sanction some of those individuals a year long investigation by the New York Times published in recent days. Crimes to reveal how fall and factions inside the settling movement have been protected. And sometimes abetted by the Israeli Government and now pose of grace trip to palestinians in the occupied territories. We found the time set a government shaken by an internal war, burying reports, commissioned neutering investigations at aside, and silencing whistle blow as some of the senior officials. Did you know about this . I didnt. Uh, does any of it surprise you over the years ive always had a sense that there was a some protection. One of the things that always was troubling is that it was very hard to ever find the exact expenditures. Also an enterprise is if the is where the government knew if it was exposed, it would actually produce a reaction with it is. So im not surprised at one level at the scope of it. I have to say is surprising. Mr. Ross on the ground and gaza, a heavy fighting around the Southern City of rough, despite the strongest possible warnings from the us. Um, has this ro stop listening to the white house . The by the administration said multiple times. It wanted to see a credible plan for safe guarding civilians. If the rafa offensive went ahead, by may the 15th, at least it was still saying it hasnt seemed such a plan. Is there any way a red line which in the which of the no circumstances israel would be allowed to cross by the administration . I think that the president has made it clear that if they go into rough, a city that is a red line thats been cross without the a credible evacuation plan, which colorado is that would be consequences. Thats right. Well, there israel is operating all around or off of and not with a drop of city now and with right now, but 800000. 00 people actually have this is still the probably the other 5. 00 and 6. 00 areas that were there. So theyre still not in the city, i think for the administration, if they were to go into the city, there wouldnt be consequences. I think the president present vine or someone who what he says something you dentist, a minute. So i suspect. Yeah. And thats why the reason i suspect is really is having a gun in is because that is something that they understand is going to trigger a response and, and with a price that they probably dont want to pay. These really Prime Minister has made it clear that the prize of a palestinian state is not on offer to the products that is particularly off to what how much is done. Is that any way that a palestinian state come in, youll view it much from all this conflict . Well, not in the near term. First of all, the policies are divided between the west bank and gaza. Youre gonna have to literally re unify them. Look, i my own view is the policy and people have a right to self determination. And whether thats a state they choose thats in the state, or theres some kind of confederation that should be their choice. But by the same token, right, with rights come responsibilities. When we talked about of housing state, we cannot have housing states, its going to be led by im us. Thats certainly not a 2 state solution that some guarantees were continually war. It cant be of housing state that becomes a member of the absence of resistance. What i call the access of misery being aligned with iran, thats also a garrett thats due to a guarantee against and state. I cant be of housing state that doesnt have institution, so itd be a failed state. So you need, you need to great rights and responsibilities. I would like to see some benchmarks created. Some milestones created all with the, all under the rubric that allison and have a state in the making. And they have to fulfill their responsibilities to be able to achieve their rights. Now obviously the same time that youre creating that at a set of standards or a milestone or obligations under the housing side, you have to impose some responsibilities on the very side, including among other things they cannot after on the ground in the west bank, in a way that makes it impossible to have her policy in the state. But everything ive just said, this is not something you can produce overnight. We have to start by having both sides even begin to cooperate in the functional way. Again, were at a very low ever you asked me about was this is difficult, the type of ive ever seen in terms of us and regular relations. I can tell you this is worse between israelis and palestinians. And at any point on which i worked on this issue, including during the 2nd intifada, so we have to get back some kind of a baseline. So we can move from there and move in a direction of a piece becoming possible. Right now, were not dealing with a conflict that is seen in, in the literal time were saying were public, thats almost seeing an extra special germs. And were going to have to get back to creating a sense of possibility. Yeah. And then were quite a ways from that god just raised with you briefly, the desk and the helicopter accidents of the radium president , right . You see any sign of an opportunity or a danger emerging from this accident . I dont think it changes things very much. I mean, it creates and certainly within a rad, but the supreme, later im an a, as an decision maker. Right . Usually was not the decision maker. He might be the decision implementer, but it wasnt good decision makers. Like yes it is. And that scream later will emphasize the importance of people participating in the election because he likes to portray that as being an indication of legitimacy. The fact it turn out to him. So small right now is an indication about uranium public really feels about is why my rebuttal again the re jane. But i think in the near term, their focus will be much more on trying to work out the selection, trying to maximize the numbers of people vote and much less adventures on the outside as well. Since been good to have your own comfort zone. Thank you very much indeed for your time. Thank you. A good to be with the the, the books view will tell you the story. 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