Transcripts For DW The 20240704

That can access information on a uses phone. Also coming up, groundbreaking. Im president in history making the European Parliament today took action to protect people from Artificial Intelligence. And to protect a eye from itself is never good or bad. The same algorithm can be used to those type of offer as well as do cancer detection. So its all about what does the use case, the eyes use for it who is using a lot of innovation comes from small startups. And so the more regulation we put, the less the innovation of and see from the small company, which our viewers watching on cbs in the United States and to all of you around the world. Welcome. We begin today in the us where the days could be numbered for tick tock. On wednesday, lawmakers in the us house of representatives overwhelmingly passed a bill that could band the social media platform if it refuses to sever all ties to the chinese government. Lawmakers both republicans and demo grads every concerns about trying his ability to access tick tock, user data via the platforms, Chinese Parent Company by dance, saying that this could pose a threat to National Security. And the legislation now goes to the us senate wherever and faces an uncertain future. However, us President Biden says if presented with the bill, he will signed into law. The tick tock future in the United States is in jeopardy. The us house of representatives has given its owner bite, dance and ultimatum divest from the app within 6 months, or risk of ban across all us devices approved by the house. The bill now goes to the senate where its fate is. Im certain, its a rare occasion where a piece of legislation has strong bi partisan support as well as opposition. Any ban on tip top is not just banning the freedom of expression. Youre literally causing huge harm to our national economy. We have Small Business owners that are here as Small Business owners from across the country. They used to talk an estimated 170000000, tick tock users are based in the us. Its reach as part of the reason why intelligence officials are concerned. The head of the f, b i n c, i a have one that china could use it to influence us Public Opinion and that it could compel by chance to hand over data on its use or is it youre getting . There have been no reports of beijing having done this, but the possibility of it happening has prompted law makers to take action by dance denies any connection to the chinese government. China is warning the us that the band will come back to bite it. President biden, who joined the app last month. He says he will sign the band if it passes a senate and ends up on his desk. But take talk responded immediately to the us houses, the calling to the legislation in our white van. Heres House Minority leader parking jeffries. I dont support a band on tick tock. The legislation did not band tick tock. Its simply a, the rest of sure of tick tock. So that this social media platform can be owned by an American Company that would protect the data and the privacy, the of the American Consumer from malignant foreign interest like the Chinese Communist party. Over more now im joined by lindsey gorman. Shes a senior fellow for emerging technologies at the alliance for securing democracy. She is in washington dc where she joins me tonight. Its good to see you again. Lets just talk about what happened today. The us house passing this legislation. Do you for see the us senate doing the same . Yeah, its good to see you too. I think the us senate will be definitely less of a foregone conclusion than the house and might take a little bit more time. But there are some encouraging signals. Today the chairman and Ranking Member of the house and tell her the of the Senate Intelligence committee came out in support of the bill. The Bind Administration has said that the president will sign the bill if it passes the senate. So there does seem to be a ground swell of support, even as, as, as you noted and from, from people like representative jeffreys who do not support a ban on tick tock. This is a, this is a measured response and so i think, well, well see what happens. There is a good chance that this makes for you as president by this is that he will signs of legislation into law if it makes it to his desk. And you know, that struck me when i, when i heard that today, because the white house just a month ago, joint tick tock. How do you explain that . I mean, that sounds like youre talking on the both sides of your mouth. They are mr. President. It sounds that way a bit and i, but i would, i would say that it wasnt the white house story to talk. It was the buying campaign, the drawing tick tock, which i think to many read does a distinction without a difference. But in terms of federal law, on these boundaries, it is somewhat different in that that this is a campaign activity, not a sudden executive branch activity. But while im heartened by is that despite the campaign being on tick tock, it does seem like the administration is still willing to pursue aggressive action to resolve the National Security from government visit. Dont you agree . It looks even worse though, for a official campaign to, to join take talk as opposed to the white house itself. I mean, you know, we hear all the universe. Its what 2016, about 4 in interference and us selections. And here you have, you know, by joining tick tock saying that, and hell sign the walter to ban it if he gets yeah, i dont think its great that the buying campaign is on tick tock despite the fact that the administration clearly recognizes it as a National Security threat, im hopeful that the campaign, like Many Americans will be able to continue to use the platform once these National Security issues are resolved through a defense that you are cuz its clearly a Popular Platform is clearly something that political candidates want to use to reach voters, we just have to deal with these tax documents, very concerned so we can carry on not. Yeah. And take talking belongs to a Chinese Company um, bite dance. Chinese companies we know are required by law in china to supply the government with any and all information if it is requested. This is really what Congress Finds disturbing, isnt it . To thats right, and thats part of it though i think the other part of it is, its important to remember that in china there really is no such thing as a private company in the United States and in europe when other democracies were accustomed to seeing the separation between companies and the government and china, ultimately, all companies are implemented at the state. And so, yes, were talking about the data risk, but really i think whats coming up even more clearly now in this conversation of the past week is the influence of propaganda. And the ability to target American Voters and voters around the world with content to influence their views on candidates on elections, and on Public Opinion. What youre talking about is maybe subliminal psych ops being executed or aimed at the American Public by a company that happens to, you know, be owned by a Chinese Company that answers to the Chinese Communist party. I mean, that is, thats a huge deal when you think of it that way. Right . Thats exactly right. And its not us the radical risk. And we, we saw in United States very clearly what russia did, using facebook and russia did not have a controlling interest. I had no ownership of facebook, it was still able to succeed. Imagine a rush. I had own facebook back in 2016 and its, its, its in its actions in europe even before 2016. And we already do have evidence of, of china interested in meddling and us elections, particularly when a chinese this event has been on the ballot. So this is not a theoretical risk, and its just to re a tool to hand over to an autocratic power whose interests are degrading the us position in the world. Well, what about these us Big Tech Companies platforms . Im thinking of facebook and twitter used to be x, i mean, they still exist. These are u. S. Companies, but have, do we have regular regulation in place to ensure that they are not used by, for example, russia again to influence the outcome of an election . I mean, its easy to point our finger at china, but are we looking in the mirror . And i think a lot of people would say that were not looking in the mirror enough and they might be right. And its true that facebook and twitter and many of these platforms have taken major strides to crack down on foreign influence activity on their platforms. And every month, every couple of months, we hear about a take down of chinese accounts or russian accounts on facebook on, on twitter, coordinated and authentic behavior that is rooted out by the platform. And thats encouraging. I think theyre still definitely a threat there. But the key difference is that market locker berg, as far as we know, is not taking orders from the Chinese Communist party. Yeah, thats a very good point to make. You know, you and i have talked over the last couple years about attempts to regulate a social media. What do you make about with this legislation . I mean, this legislation was present in what just a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago. I mean, its made it to the, the vote in the house very quickly. Is this political washington waking up to the responsibilities that you and i talked about 2 or 3 years ago that seemed to have been neglected in washington in some sense. Yes, i dont think this is, anyone sees this as a bill, thats a panacea to solve all the problems of social media. It is very, very narrow, lead targeted to dealing with tick tock by dance and potentially other or an adversary controlled autocratic apps. So this is not wide scale social media regulation. Lets be clear that said, i do think this question on tick. Tock has been brewing for a very long time, and thats driving some of the expediency i think that were seeing with which this bill has been able to pass the house and were received uh 500 boat out of committee in the manner of about a week this is a part of bipartisan initiative, one of the signature initiatives coming out of the house, select committee on the ccp. And so i think were in because were in the election year, theres that extra added urgency where we want to do something together. We want to do something by partisan, and the reality is people are starting to use take talk to talk about the 2024 election in the us, and thats a problem that needs to be solved right away. Very good point. Lindsey gorman with the alliance for securing democracy in washington, dc is always good talking with we appreciate the analysis. Thank you. Likewise, thanks for having me. Now to this side of the atlantic european union, lawmakers today approved the worlds 1st ever Legal Framework on governing Artificial Intelligence. Remove the active supporters say that it aims to protect you citizens from the risk posed by the technology, all at the same time promoting agreement. A i innovation 8 by on the european continent, and its been about 5 years in the making. And it could be seen as president making for countries struggling to control a is. Rapid advance is close. Ill be talking to an expert on Artificial Intelligence and just a moment, but 1st this report explain what it is and why its proponent, say it has the power to revolutionize the world. And what other say it brings great risk as well. Whenever computers do jobs that previously required human intelligence, we speak of Artificial Intelligence, i crops up and many phones from the algorithms that decide what we see on social media to programs we use to generate text or images or software that helps doctors to spot cancer and x rays, but it can also be used to supercharge this information online, or enables surveillance on an unprecedented level. So many countries are looking to regulate Artificial Intelligence. Europe is leading the way. There are fundamentally 2 sides to the debate. Many i developers are concerned about having to match regulation. We need to make sure that we dont override related right now because that will hinder innovation. As awesome, as was to help found the german, hey i association, which represents some 400 companies. I is never good about the same algorithm can be used to those type of offer as well as do cancer detection. So its all about what does the use case . The eyes use for it who is using a lot of innovation comes from small startups. And so the more regulation we put, the less the innovation of and see from the small companies. But while the opportunities of a i a vast. So with the risks, and thats the other side of the debate. Digital rights advocates want to top rules to mitigate the risks is Artificial Intelligence, machine learning, and all these. Lets a complex complex algorithms and data sets. Are jeff placate the biases . Thats the humans have a systems used in recruitment, for example, have been shown to be biased against women. Facial Recognition Technology has been proven to be less accurate for people of color with people being arrested for crimes. They never committed, and algorithms used to by public authorities have wrongly accused thousands of families of welfare fraud. So you know, make, is the thinking to balance both sides of the argument. Their answer regulate a i systems according to their level of risk when the risk. So limited, like when a high is used to fill the emails for spam, only a few rules apply, but for potentially life changing applications like deciding which students qualify for higher education, the rules will be strict to some applications will be banned completely. The aim is to reap the benefits of a i while limiting its risks. I know when i pull in daniel permit here, hes executive director and the care center for a i risk and impacts any joint is from san from cisco. Daniel, its good to have you with this. Do you think this Artificial Intelligence act . Does it tackle the, the biggest risk that a i pose is to people in the you . I mean, is this a day that the world, particularly europeans, should be celebrate . Thanks for having me. Yeah, i think so. It, it tackle service that were facing today, at least when it comes to a i, im not sure it will get us all the way to a i safety forever. I think more will need to solve it. But assessing in a historical day to day. This is as a set, the worlds 1st comprehensive se aggregation, and i think it turned out surprisingly well. Its not perfect, but the, you did a pretty good job here. I think it at a big reconciling, defend needs and requirements that different stakeholder groups had. So there was a need for innovation, we need to stay competitive as, as europeans. But we also one safety and we dont want to compromise on that. And i think the law does a, does a good job with that. Well, what talk me through this and help us understand exactly how are people being pre texted now by what was past today . Right, so, um, originally the, this law, the act was conceived of as a purely sort of a user focused r r. I use specific law, so there are a lot of different rules for a i in medicine, a i, in law and a, i know all these very different specific sectors. And you know, you can argue about whether in some cases its a bit of older regulation or on the regulation. But i think overall its a clear commitment to protecting users and the you. And then i think weve been very clever as your kids to also add later on rules for general purpose models. And so these are the g p t, detached, if hes of this world. This is how i have been taking the world by storm, and we added rules for these general models that dont really fit in any of these use categories because theyre so general and so broad. They are very potent and that means they can also lead to a lot of risks because theyre so strong and putting, and i think its great that the act has binding requirements for the developers of these general models as what you used to speak of over regulation. Im sure you would be suspicious of anyone who is out right now saying that this is over regulation, because this is actually the 1st attempt at any regulation of a i. And im wondering because of this is, is big tech in your opinion, likely to comply with these regulations, or do you foresee big tech trying to find loopholes in ways to circumvent the regulations . Oh, i mean, i certainly think i expect them to, to try and look for ways to, you know, keep the Compliance Costs as much as possible for them. Um, but theyre going to have a hard time because theres an, as you said, is binding. Its, its hard law now, and if its companies are not going to comply with it, they will have to pay signs. So yes, i expect so both overall efforts to compliance, but also a big tech and companies in general has its kind of natural for them to to look for a new pulse. A lot will come down now to the implementation phase. That is basically beginning now. So that means translating the fairly high level language of the law as its been passed into very concrete and detailed standards to Tell Companies exactly what they have to comply with. And i think we need to make sure that the standard setting face this implementation face thats coming now, goes well, so only on the 1st half of the, of the homework that weve done. And theres more to come. Yeah, its definitely New Territory for, for everyone. Daniel pivot here with the cure center for a iris and impacts talking with us about this groundbreaking, the Artificial Intelligence act, to your, into your opinion, the 1st of its kind in the world. Daniel, thank you. Thank you. Test level. So you learned most visited his companys factory outside berlin today, just as the Assembly Line went back online following suspected sabotage or contest was 1st, european plant was halting for nearly a week after fire damage the high voltage pilot a left we extreme. This group is claimed responsibility for the attack to my colleague, our political correspondent, julie. So ideally she was at the tesla factory today for this visit. You wanted to see you on musket, i understand you didnt get to see him and also you didnt get to hear what he was saying either by far as hard drive by and it was obviously a test last. So ive got that. But yeah, we were sort of all outside kept outside of the factory and we could see this big tent with all the workers inside and a long musket talking to them. But then we actually got a cars driven by employees of tesla parked in front of where we journalists were standing blasting music. So we couldnt really hear what he was saying. You know, why, why we didnt want you to hear what he was saying . I guess it was not a public event, so they want us to listen. Then what do we know . Why mr. Eli most decided to take the trouble to travel to germany, to visit his factory. But it seems like you have to boost morale a little bit at the factory. It been a weeks the with workers left not being able to work because of the arson attack that happened close to the tesla factory and they basically have to shut down production. So that was last week, right . Yes, exactly, a week ago. So i imagine that there were some concerns also among the workers there about, you know, what is going on here some, some, some worry also do people actually hate us because we work at that . Well, what is going on . I mean, it was sabotage, right . Yes. Weve heard a group claiming responsibility for the sabotage of the power lines leading into test one and effected the tesla factory. But also people who live in the area who were without electricity also for a week. So its been, its been quite an impact for, for it has light itself, but its company has said its los up the hundreds of millions of dollars or euro is because of this. And so, you know, i will eat on mosque was there to boost morales to tell the employees there that hes not giving up on the test the project in germany, and that 0. They actually want to continue with plans to expand the factory. What is there . Is there a hostile environment right now between i guess the people who live around the factory and the, the tesla management or, well, we tesla has plans to expand the factory. And this is an area that is full of for us. And weve seen that last month, residents in the area, 65 percent of them voted against the expansion of the factory. Theyre concerned that they basically dont want more for us to be torn down, but theyre also concerned about the water supply. Is an area outside berlin that is already has scarce water and theyre afraid that because the plan to use is so much water that theyll have problems with the water supply in the future, especially in the summer is where we see droughts quite often in the area what do we know about the group, the claim, responsibility for the, the, the, i guess the power outage and sabotage last week. So this is a group that is classified by germanys intelligence service. As a far less big scream is grouped with our coast leanings. And they, we dont know much about them really. They know that they were formed in 2011, and that theyve been carrying out arson attacks in berlin, in the area around berlin. And its not the 1st time that they actually went after tesla already. What are the, what are the against . Well, they are sort of like an antique capital list. A group of theyve attacked testers specifically because its supposed to be a green car, right . The electric car thats well, this is something that i heard for example, from another group of protesters who have set up a protest camp just outside the factory in the forest. That is meant to be torn down by the expansion. And they have distance themselves from the arse and attack. They dont agree with that other group that is going against those law for the protesters and the protest camps. They call themselves anti capitalism. They say what tesla is doing with the electric vehicles is not the solution to the climate crisis. They say that the way that test would produce is its electric vehicles is exploiting, for example, countries in the global south where Raw Materials are taken to produce the batteries for the electric vehicles. And that this is actually causing more in the quality of more injustice in the world. Instead of actually bringing forth a transition that they say should be more fair. When we know chinese car makers right now, theyre are also going to let you know about to lead the way. When it comes to e vehicles. I wonder if theyre being targeted as well. What about the one must do we know does, does he have any buyers remorse is a big investment to put a factory like that. Here in germany, wages are high here. I mean, its not, its not an expensive to do business here. And now hes got sabotage to deal with that. And this is the only tesla factory in the whole of europe. Yeah, so it is quite a big thing also for germany. What he said today is that no, he doesnt have buyers remorse. What weve heard that came out of this meeting that he has at the factory and today that hes ready to go ahead and he sort of, you know, try to give a morale boost the workers. But certainly he must be asking himself, is it worth going ahead . And this is also a question that is probably also working for the german, local and federal governments. Because german is not an easy country to invest in. The salaries are high, the cost of labor is high. Labor laws are very strong and protecting workers, and also red tape is notoriously, pretty terrible. So if protests also come into the next, im sure that some Big International Companies Might start questioning even more. Is germany a good choice . Yeah, well, he said he came here because, you know, they were highly skilled workers. Are huge, cool, highly skilled workers here which, which he needs what well see. I mean, he says that bind twitter was not a bad idea either. So, you know, i guess the jury is still out on that. Julia, thank you. Thank you as well. The day continues online and remember whatever happens between now and then tomorrow is another day. Well see you then everybody, [000 00 00;00] the, the moon visit. Private companies are ready to go off the move in 50 years. The rain has the gun again, but this time its not just about so sure. With everything the moon has to offer big money at stake, made in germany next on d. W. And says the conflicts own with Tim Sebastian president ial elections in russia, either use or full gun contusion with nothing left to chop, not even the best in jail as the leading opposition figure. Ill explain about me. My guess is the russian commentary to andre collect the recall. For tommy, he, russian, your agent center in moscow was nevada. Is such a serious, correct . The bluetooth has to be too complex. And in 60 minutes on d, w, the, the race has long begun later when we look back, we recognize that, oh, thats the moment when everything change. Its all about dominance. In the age of Artificial Intelligence, in 5 years see, i mean it was in china the us. Oh youre up to control the technology that will shape the future of humanity, the small its new world, the a i race start smaller 16th on dw, the neil armstrong. The 1st man on the moon after him and buzz aldrin and 1969. The only 10 others have since i put there. But the 2 men certainly revelled in their pioneering achievements. Nasa will soon be sending a new crew to them is, although this time the space trips will just be the proverbial leap forward for human kind. Theyll also involve Major Business opportunities for commercial