Change or will it continue to provide opportunity and caught up to priests who commit these terrible crimes. From a 100 sort of a welcome to conflict on thank you years after thousands of sex abuse cases committed by catholic priests have come to light around the world the church is still failing to cooperate with successive inquiries failing to come clean about everything it knows still failing to change why is the. I think there are factors make it difficult to change but overall i see change happening over the last 2 years we have had a number of corporations with so civil authorities in the u. S. Bishops have handed over on their own without any requests from state authorities documents well if you has cooperated on diplomatic ways with governments let me give you an example of what im talking about last month an investigation by the Associated Press slammed the catholic review boards in america these mandatory bodies that were set up to probe evidence of abuse they found a whole catalogue of dishonesty and cover ups across the country they said bishops had masked these boards in secrecy often hiding who serves on them in dozens of cases secular courts or government investigators later decided abuse was credible after the board said it wasnt yet these people have been chosen from among professionals they are lay people mostly on those board is the bishops are chosen yeah but they have wanted to go on the board so it is also their responsibility what they do we have had enormous numbers on the some cases the Board Members were lied to or werent even told the truth this is up to the bishops responsibility and then they have to take whatever they need to do as responsibility they are responsible for that yeah but theyre not i mean theyre not taking responsibility a. P. Says that the review boards appointed by the bishops operating in secrecy have routinely undermined sex abuse claims from victims shielded abuse accused priests and help the church of void payments all this has to be uncovered and thats why we need those news and when he just goes on and on but you said things are positive this isnt positive until theres no absolutely and i said in my 1st response to you that there are things that are difficult to change but there are other elements that are changing this investigation that points to the fact that there are significant numbers of senior clergy in your church who basically Rotten Church despite everything still provides a home for deceivers. Criminal priests or buz dont you ever asked why. They managed to find a home in the Catholic Church that these people no i mean they have not found a home for the how they have chosen that and they have behaved as they have so they have to be taken to accountability for them have to choose nitty and cover over the years because because we have we have now instead established a system of accountability within the meeting of the president s of the bishops conferences that we organized in february for the 1st time we have made a 1st step forward in Something Like a delegation of accountability from rome to the local level that was one of the problems because the Catholic Church is not a monolithic block it exists in 7000 diocese and the pope is the only one according to canon all who can really sanction a priest a bishop so it is now now it is possible since 1st of june with a new law that has been established that the local metropolitan the archbishop can and needs to oversee what the bishops in his district do or dont and he has to report if there is a failure negligence or cover up ok well lets talk about accountability in more detail the later but in january this year the pope criticized bishops in the u. S. For covering up sexual abuse and indulging in gossip and slander to avoid responsibility it was painful he said to watch a piss kaputt lacking in unity and concentrate more on pointing fingers than on seeking part of reconciliation if it was so painful to him why not use the remedy that was staring him in the face and remains in his hands to set the bishops sack as many as you have to in order to restore some public trust in the church. But it doesnt do that you say yes but he doesnt do that he did it yesterday one yeah and over the last year he did a couple of more and and. A number of them i know a couple of more 100 bishops of youve got in this church yet when you receive a report on that he has fact them and he has taken the initiative to do that i mean this peter isley who heads the group ending clergy abuse as the only way to solve this is at the top he the pope can do it with the stroke of a pen and he does feel every now and then went when there is a report when there is credible allegation when there is an investigation that proves the allegations that he has done it last december the wall street journal reported that a little known vatican Appeals Panel had been going soft on priests convicted of sexual abuse under church law in more than a 3rd of the cases it said those priests had their penalties sharply reduced so much for the kind of 0 tolerance the pope has been advertising around the world but this is an appeal court in every law system you have a 1st instance and then you have an appeal so that did not exist until it was established 5 years ago it wasnt pleasing senior cardinals would have been june 27th in a vatican meeting Cardinal Sean omalley of boston reportedly complained bitterly about excessive leniency this is below the trend under this pope as an excessive means it top line in politics 0 tolerance and behind the scenes go soft on them i mean this is not the full truth he has dismissed many priests he has dismissed a number of bishops and he has established the Pontifical Commission for the protection of minors he has been he has been very strong on the establishment of new laws and all this has happened over the last 6 years or so piece but but pellets and priests of abuse are still in the church of course there are because they and they remain in the church and how much confidence therefore can the public have in all these measures that youre citing very little it would seem that is understandable and of course i myself. Working for a change in this and we are hopeful that with new measures with new laws and with an education that transforms culture things will change but this is not. In an institution that has 1300000000 members and has as i said thousands of diocese thousands of bishops and provincials and generals tent of thousands of congregations this is not an easy task to do nobody said it was easy in june last year though you gave the comforting assurance that the pope was getting to the bottom of the issues said hes not choosing 12 or 3 black sheep but rather looking at the root of the problem is asking what caused these abuses how was their existence denied howard buza priests were transferred the main thing you said is looking at the system in its entirety this was last year you said that frankly youve had decades to look at these issues and your comments really sounded like an attempt to kick this into a sort of academic playground instead of dealing with the specifics you know the answers to these questions the un committee on the rights of the child told you the other but the answers were many of the answers 4 years ago but you didnt take any notice of them or absolutely i spoke today with one of the members of this commission of the un rights tries to try to drive calm committee the country is speaking the chance to do this thing you know and he he told me that they are very confident about the collaboration by the secretary of state at the back at the moment and they are complying with what the committee wanted them to do immediately removing all known and suspected child sexual abuses from service that was the recommendations are going to only 48. 00 but it isnt yet it is when otherwise you would be far fewer of them who are known to many people and known to many bishops still in the church how do you understand how hard is that to keep you know that when there is an allegation when theres an investigation and then theres a judgment and this is what about all the laws are about and this is got this is happening at the moment another recommendation ignored repealing all provisions which may impose an obligation of silence on the victims and on all those that become aware of such crimes why isnt that being repealed if it is repeated as you see it when i mean yeah i mean that you know you cannot tell you know that all the bishops are coming clean about this. I dont know whether they are coming along i have been over the last 3 months ive been to 5 bishops conferences and i can tell you that all of them are very very clear on all this what they need is education and formation because many of those are from countries where you have no resources where you have little knowledge about how to deal with this despite all what we can say about human formation about spitter formation they have not dealt because in those societies i talk about african and latin american countries as well as about Asian Countries this is not a topic that people talk about publicly you dont speak about sexual misbehavior in the society of lets say nguyen mar or easy leave south africa you dont do that for other people in the church is part of those societies and this is a process as we have seen in the us in ireland in u. K. In germany that goes step by step together with the society at large and its taken years and years and years to get even to the stage where people who abuse children are sick and depraved and their actions are covered up by church men who lie either to hold on to their job so in the mistaken belief that they are protecting the church was so hard to understand those i feel hard to understand and they are dismissed from the priest or peter isley or the busa victim who heads the group ending clergy abuse complaint in february about you and your colleagues he said theyre saying there are all these bishops who dont understand sexual abuse how do you get to be a bishop if you have to be given an education about the rape of a child good question isnt it absolutely and yes i am that peter just on the eve of the meeting of the president s of the bishops conference with one very 1st we where we were in one room with 20 survivors of abuse from different parts of the world and there is no education about. Necessary for what is rape or what is Sexual Violence what is education necessary for it how europe. Victim how you accommodate them how you help and support them and what you do with the perpetrator this is just so theres intellectual playing with the issue isnt it and it is only ok you can take it like that it is a psychiatry can psychological measure that you have to take not all of them are paedophiles we see how how great your commitment is to taking abusive priests out of the system with the case of Cardinal George pell of australia. And this is a man who is a convicted sex offender serving prison time has he been dismissed from his lofty role as cardinal you know he has because he has. First of all here he has been convicted in 2 instances and just 2 weeks ago a lot of where theres one right there is a rape yes but he has not a final conviction and that is what the holy see has always said we would wait until the final conviction will be set and then there will be consequences surely as has been in other cases you are willing to make america was doing the same thing for the son of the u. N. Pointed out 2014 that your church was quite happy to defrock or demote nuns and priests for far less serious offenses like violating the obligation of silence but now weve seen when it comes to a cardinal a convicted sex offender its just find him on his positions and whats the message that that sends the higher up the church you get the more protection the more were going to ignore these very serious some of the most serious crimes you know what happens if there is a conviction that is credible and confirmed in the case of the former Cardinal Mccarrick he has been defrocked he has been taken out of the college of cardinals and because of the public outcry that is what did it didnt know because what now because now it started with an investigation by a church board in new york that stated that the allegations that came forward in 2018 for the 1st time that he abused not only seminaries were added. But for the 1st time miners were credible and then that was forwarded to the congregation for the doctrine of the faith that conducted the trial the trial found those allegations credible and he was defrocked immediately you have a convicted sex offender in jail and still a cardinal is this really the image of the Catholic Church that you want to portray in 2090 as i said when when you have a bad as i said at the beginning im not happy at all about the situation and i hope that we will have clarity once the Appeals Court or the high court will i dont miss it defined what will be the penalty or if there is any youve got enough clarity to defrock him if he by a miracle wins his appear you can reinstate him cant you i mean tim lemon president of the Survivors Network of those abused by priests im sure you know him as well as pelle should have been immediately defrocked makes me speechless he said that theyve kept him as a cardinal that means hes the prince of the church the 3rd highest Ranking Member so now were faced with a situation where survivors have to rely on civil courts to achieve justice because we have not seen that within the church about because of if there is a conviction he will certainly be defrocked this is my conviction and youve condemned very strongly sexual abuse in the Catholic Church but you some of your comments appear to watered down your condemnation by pointing out that this kind of abuse is rife in many other parts of society you said on one interview i follow the situation in the us and of late you have accusations against all kinds of religious leaders from different religious denominations the boy scouts and sports Teachers University professors medical doctors psychologists Police Military and so on my point all that out do you really think that sexual abuse in the church sounds less disgraceful if other people are doing it as well no what i said was that this is also a problem for the whole of the society and the church has to do as you can see in hundreds of interviews that ive given. In all the text that i have written about that my 1st interest is that we do as the Catholic Church what is our responsibility and that we take our own field and that we clean it up do i trusted not just with this ickle protection of those in your care but the protection of the sol absolutely and this is what i have pointed out and what i drive by priests absolutely and this is what i repeat over and over again when i go to to all those conferences this is one of them my major point and you you will no progress on this at all oh i see progress in this at least with the people that we train in the center for chap protection of this university when cardinal admitted publicly in february to your meeting with the vatican conference on protecting minors that some church files on abuse cases have been systematically destroyed systematically important word isnt that because they mean they knew exactly what they were doing when they were getting rid of damaging information and they probably still are destroying these documents or they have done that i wonder how you know that they are doing it absolutely this is wrong when it happens and this house of the persecutor in february there were high hopes for that conference on protecting mine especially since its taken decades for the vatican to give this kind of public importance to the issue but on on the eve of the meeting pope francis attacked those he called accusers those who spend their lives accusing accusing accusing he said are these are the friends cousins and relatives of the devil really. People accusing of accusing priests of doing committing these cardinal sins absolutely i mean if if there is a crime didnt even turn up himself of the son of course it was the old paul 3 days and a half of a letter of sure he said through all this and why was he why was he blaming accusers i dont know what he referred to i cant believe that it was accuse article of abuse that has happened the conference highlighted one glaring omission the use an organizer seem to have overlooked 8 victims of sexual abuse were invited to give testimony but there was no attempt to find out of the priests who committed crimes against them were still in the church why didnt you ask for specifically for that information desk not true this information is not true we have inquired you have to reckon that a good number of those 8 did not want to be publicly known that was also the reason why the couldnt give the names because they themselves said they wanted to to remain anonymous and thats why they i also had to go through 3rd persons to come in contact with them because they did not want to show their face and they didnt want to know people to know anything about what was going on mary collins former member of the public Difficult Commission for the protection of mass at the fact that the vatican didnt know if these priests in question was to act in the church undermine the credibility of the whole event and even archbishop charles skill cooler former top prosecutor for sex abuse at the vatican said he would try to find out because thats a very important point you havent found out since. I have found out we know about them and how they hold and are they in the jolan some of those who are told they did not give me the permission to talk about this you said in much after the conference the bishops who attended had taken some initiatives and some that revised their guidelines for cooperating with civil war for a tease. The fact is theres still no absolute requirement for the church to inform the police of any suspected abuses the yes it is there as well as the congregation for the doctrine of the faith in may 2011 stated that wherever in any state or country there is an obligation to report then that law has to paul be followed through you told the tablet in january 27th in the church cooperates with laws and Legal Proceedings where it can so it may cooperate or it may not now know where the obligation is then we have to follow through but you have to reckon that in a 197 countries in this world the law on reporting is very different and sometimes in countries you have states that have different reporting laws nobody understands in the anger from birth that in germany the parliament in 2010 decided against a mandatory reporting law on the grounds of weisss of victims and the experience are psychiatrists and psychologists well the global Victims Group says youre still hiding behind that argument that mandatory reporting to police is a problem in some countries it says just the stablish the law for reporting unjustified exception instead youre using the exception as a pretext for not reporting sexual abuse is just a little different to what i said just now that i did not talk about countries like iran or iraq where you would be killed because of the exception these are the exceptions i was talking about countries like germany like it to live where you dont have a mandatory reporting law and on grounds that have been established by professional groups and even in the case of germany by the import of victims and by 1st of june 2019 we have a law that obliges all clergy and all religions to report abuse to Church Authorities and the whole world well its only your system of Church Justice inspires very little Public Confidence doesnt it because your justice is behind closed doors and therefore no one knows if its been done or not do the. Not surprising therefore that so many people think youre incapable of being transparent and the Catholic Church is incapable of policing itself do you do you go along with that i believe that we need much more input from professionals and we need also oversight from outside and this is what is happening now for example in the english inquiry and the response of the Catholic Church so that they have called for an independent inquiry and they have voluntarily opened all the files for that kind of edification but the church refuses to submit its processes to public scrutiny what we do know from documents back to 2001 is that only preschool officiate at these hearings and cases of this kind are subject to what was called the pontifical sea and exactly this is 1st the 1st assumption that you said is wrong you have women who can precisely or over such trials lay women and the 2nd one is changing as we talk you have quoted artificial chicken or he has hes a very important figure in this field and he has called for the ending of the pontifical secret being applied to these its good for you may not happen again im not sure about a lot of time but yes im pretty sure that after the several conference it is going to happen very soon from where we are now and december so were a long way from yesterday but if you have to have a lot within 5 months after the we have a book that worldwide law. That was promulgated and applied to the whole church in 5 months after the ending or 4 months only after the ending of this conference so i think there has been a clear sign that this is there is some determination to move on and the problems with canon law which the u. N. Asked you to revise last 1395 in particular which says about forced sexual abuse by a priest with a minor he has to be punished with just penalties not excluding dismissal and thats it could be dismissed. But it might even not be you know if you are normal people come along and the norm of the normal penalty is applied in those cases is the dismissal from the character state yeah but its not mandatory its not mandatory because the cases are very very diverse and this is the gray area that your abusive criminal priests are allowed to hide in isnt that you know this is the gap that they hide you know its not that i mean its up to the judges to take evidence and then to judge as according to the fact that theres a separate this is why priests allowed to get away with these crimes year after year and ever said thousands have been disrupted because of that august last year the attorney general for the u. S. State of illinois launched an inquiry into every Catholic Diocese in the state looking for and reported cases of clergy misconduct why because she didnt believe the church is assurances that since 2002 all cases that been reported to the civil authorities people just dont believe the church can understand. Why do you stay in the if you used your family faith and you cant even get people to believe your word here i mean why go on with it you know i mean i see that there are many patients who comply with all those obligations that they have eliminated or yeah sure and this is the biggest reality we live in this church which is not. A community of saints only theyre also sinners and dead and criminals so this is the fact that you have to face reality this is the reality of the church i work for and i am in and i have grown up in this and i have received so much and you may be low and believe this or not but yesterday i had an exchange with a lady who follows me on twitter and there was an attack from somebody from another country. Sort of taking me as an example of those hypocrites and so forth they talk a lot this lady is a survivor of abuse as she states on her twitter account herself and she she told me personally please keep up the work go on keep up what you do well and so on thanks very much for being rude come ok thank you. In the. Odds. Sure of. What unites. What divides. The man. Driving course. What binds the continent to get her body answers and stories a plenty good. Spotlight on people. 30 minutes on d. W. More Nuclear Weapons in europe. Heres a deescalation and a song about. Mutual trust between more powers is fast disappearing theres now an angry sing risk that atomic weapons could be just a moment cause currently talking germany or europe of acquiring its own nuclear weapon. Are we heading into a new cold war. In 75 minutes on d w. Was the speech of his life. Perhaps hes back certainly his most difficult this speech by calling dresden on december 19th 1989. Shortly after the fall of the of the chancellor addresses the people of east germany. The movies tense the crowd clamors for german unity journalist peter lim borg was at the scene. 30 years later he looks back on the. Interest and starts december 19th d w d t you know that 77 percent. Are younger than 6 oclock. Thats me and me and you. And you know what its time all voices. Of the 77 percent to talk about the issues. This is where you cut. The 77 percent this weekend on d w. In the. Climate change. Goes from a dose of. Looks nice to people. What ideas do they have for their future. G. W. Dot com for can make a serious film making to give. A clear answer. This is news and these are our top stories on mars leader aung sang suu kyi has told the u. N. Stop court that there was no genocide the intense behind her countrys military campaign against broke into muslims and. 17 or than 700000 wrote in just fled to neighboring bangladesh during the plucky crackdown. In the u. K. It was the last day of campaigning before thursdays parliamentary election and closely watched poll suggests the