A bill to stop his do or die pledge to leave the e. U. At the end of october with or if necessary without a negotiated deal with brussels could the last minute revolt save the u. K. From a no deal brecks it and even topple the Prime Minister said the end of the road for johnson thats our question for today and here are the guests who will answer it alex forrest fighting is a d. W. Recorder and a former westminster Political Correspondent she says the countrys parliament and the conservative party are tearing themselves apart over breakfast at Prime Minister johnson appears to have lost control and friedrich taylan is with us hes an expert on business and economics who formerly wrote for the german newspaper steve belt and the bitch and he says democratic convictions are more deeply rooted in the political system the britain than some populists seem to believe and its a pleasure to welcome john worth he is an e. U. Citizen with you can. A passport who lives in berlin hes a blogger political advisor and a member of the green party he says Boris Johnson is turning the conservative party into their breasts that party but this week has shown that it is a dangerous game so let me start out by asking you alex you say that Boris Johnson appears to have lost control but appearances can be deceiving how does he actually perhaps overplayed his hand or could it be that he is playing into the hands of his opponents and could you wind up winning the endgame alternately well i think we can write him off and this is my point particularly because he has some very strong characters behind him who are very good at the dock she say so we cant write him off at the moment it looks like those who are opposing a no deal brecks it including those who want to remain in the e. U. Are winning the game theyve always lee done very well in parliament by defeating him in these votes this week which has been a very difficult time for the Prime Minister given how he has been Prime Minister for such a short amount of time so it has not been an easy week for him but he is still Prime Minister and he does still have cards up his sleeve i believe and i do not think that we can say that this is the end game for Boris Johnson let me ask you just very briefly could one of those cards still be snap elections yes absolutely i think that we will see an election in the u. K. The question is when will it be talking in a few weeks if you days are all we talking about a couple of months ok well come back to that point in just a minute let me ask you john wirth highly respected tories were kicked out of the party this week for defying Boris Johnson now you say he is reshaping the conservative party into the bracks party but in. Fact britain already has a party namely the new party founded in january by nigel thrush so wouldnt it rather than Boris Johnsons reconstituted conservatives be in the best position to rally those who want to leave Going Forward what you say there is exactly what nigel frauds would like like to think bear in mind however that British Elections require lots of seats on the ground lots of local campaigners and thats what the conservatives at least bolt for breaks in policy is much more of a media operation its very its very polish in the way it comes over but it can actually do Election Campaigning on the ground and thats why essentially Boris Johnsons pitch is essentially to those voters who voted for the brakes and part of european elections in may come back to the conservatives with a real break city is now and to try is trying to unite all of those programs of voters behind the conservative party he thinks the next election will be fought on brets it rather than being forced on other topics and thats hes clear pitch come back to the conservatives we have the true bright city is now ok thanks very much and again were going to take a deeper look at that in just a moment the detail in your Opening Statement said that democratic convictions are deeply rooted in the u. K. s political system but as many of us have discovered over the last 10 days many of those conventions and convictions are not written down as black letter law and doesnt that in fact make it very difficult to rein in an unscrupulous demagogue of the sort that Boris Johnson is proving himself to be if but my confidence is that the machinery of democracy has worked for for them for 400 years and and there may be a solution suddenly we have a snap election out of this as new majority neither labor you know all the tories united and the rest have. The majority then suddenly another person who is somebody around turns up and can unite. Behind him and then suddenly we are in a new situation my trust is that the british political system and the put it to class for whatever weve seen in the last 2. Years or so. Can find solutions we can find solutions because its deeply rooted in the well political senses and heart of the british me just push a little harder on that point because what we certainly heard over the past week as that those conventions depended on the members of the political system says try being to unwritten rules of fair play and integrity and would you really say that Boris Johnson the people around him are doing so moments now but i. Advocated that out of the snap election that was it becomes a no majority for mr johnson but suddenly the country from unites hind someone who is not being a candidate before that is easily possible and that is sort of when to dish it is deeply rooted in the british political so it might come up optimist ok i was just going to say the problem with that is that we that we have seen in the past few months in british politics m. P. s leaving either the labor party or the conservative party and trying to set up a new party to do exactly this and it has not done very well they have some of those members have now left and joined the liberal democrats which is a 3rd party and this is the problem with the british political system at the moment it is very adversarial it is based on a 2 party system and that is why bracks it has proved to be rather complicated i want to come back to that in just a moment but id really like to 1st bring in a report that gives us a somewhat deeper look at the politician who seems to hold the u. K. s fate in his hands at the moment. His career as brick city a leader launched with online. The u. K. Was obliged to pay the e. U. 350000000 pounds each week his campaign claimed that was hugely exaggerated nevertheless his anti e. U. Stance helped him become Prime Minister in late july e. U. Partners have rebuffed his attempts to renegotiate now Boris Johnson is steering the country towards a no deal breaks it. Leaving on the 31st of october. We will see any attempt to go back to. That referendum to stop parliament from passing a law that would rule out a hard break that he ordered a 5 week suspension of the house of commons but the Prime Minister faced a huge backlash when massive protests erupted in many british cities is Boris Johnson harming british democracy. Let me put that question straightaway to john wirth whether Boris Johnson is harming british democracy is certainly some people said as he suspended parliament essential sending it on a forced and lengthy vacation that that amounts to a coup i think to call it a curious perhaps exaggerating it somewhat but nevertheless. In the parliament not sitting for 5 weeks in the middle of a political crisis is an extremely worrying development and its basically said Boris Johnson can avoid parliamentary scrutiny so essentially hes trying to push parliament away because he knows the parliament aarons dont really support his brakes at plans now what were seeing this week and well see more next week at least is that parliament fighting back is trying to use the little time its got available to bind Boris Johnsons hands as much as possible but its a very delicate situation and were not yet certain whether parliament will actually win that battle against helen let me ask you a devils. Question you know the british have been going in circles for the past 3 years essentially said say agreed on brecks it or since the referendum a devils advocate might say look you know what its time for strong leadership even if it is a bit unorthodox well it sounds russian no but it isnt because the. But your system doesnt know and thats nonstress what you said before coalitions only in war times Political Parties have united in a Coalition Government which is the normal procedure in practice in europe and around the world that maybe we have steering in this sold off a crisis situation. But if its not the leader of the labor not called and somebody else comes out of it out of the dark or all of the right and forms this and that we need in this crisis situation a Coalition Government is special if you look at the industrial economic consequences of what is happening after the new deal brecks it all breaks into told. The country will suffer the Common People will lose money and the money which is in the city the financial hotspot to view it is going to go away were going to take a closer look at that as well but let me stay with the point about unscrupulous politicians have what they need within the kind of political system that britain does have serious preferred i think in their very 1st answer to some of johnsons advisers in practitioners of the dark arts i assume you were referring to mr cummings and maybe you can tell us a bit about what youre bent yes so so dominate cummings is Boris Johnson special advisor and he has. Become quite a big name amongst british politics for many years but also among the British Public because a lot of finger pointing. Is going on at that coming saying that he is the man responsible for a lot of this he was the man behind the Vote Leave Campaign back in 2016 for the referendum that campaign succeeded that is why the u. K. Is leaving the view and everybody many people thought that that wouldnt be possible but he turned it round his way is to make bricks it happen and he has the man behind Boris Johnson making sure that breaks it happens using the phrase this is what the people voted for back in 2016 this is democracy so you talk about is Boris Johnson being on democratic or they will say no we are doing what the will of the people called for back in 2016 and this is democratic doesnt it cummings i myself have had some some dealings with him the 1st time i met him i had a night she even know who he was but i had been interviewing the cabinet minister Michael Goves who he then what for i had asked him a couple of questions that michael gove didnt like and he told me he didnt like them he walked away and suddenly the 3 men came towards me one of them was Dominic Cummings who swore at me and told me i was whatever journalist absolutely furious told me i couldnt use this interview. Which was then used and so so so then so saying everythings happening with him swearing at m. P. s on the phone were hearing about including the rebels marching out an advisor to the chancellor thats the finance minister because apparently she wasnt toeing the line you know all these stories that we are now hearing is very much what well certainly i experience some of it but what we have known in westminster for some for many years and he has one aim and that is to get it over the line so dumb that cummings was part of the mystery to read that. Essentially created a red pro Live Campaign for the referendum that was based on lies we heard that in our report as well. Certainly Boris Johnson has shown himself to be perfectly willing to resort to lies from time to time to get what he wants is he to be believed now john when he says that he can get a better deal out of brussels this is one of the things that he has been saying to sort of. Swayed concerns that. Britain could wind up in a no deal situation hes been saying look im on the right track i can get a deal there is no evidence whatsoever that he is on the right track this was a question that came from a labor leader corbin in all of the debates earlier in the week. Could you show us some proof of how these negotiations of working out and crucially can you show us how youre going to solve the Northern Ireland border question because Boris Johnson keeps on attacking the socalled Northern Island barksdale thats basically the system to prevent there being a whole border in ireland off the brakes it and thats being so the Crucial Point where Boris Johnson said were not going to agree to anything with the Northern Ireland by stopping it says ok so if youre making progress show us and Boris Johnson just bluffed he had nothing to say there is no evidence whatsoever Boris Johnson is just trying to threaten the e. U. He is not going to the e. U. With any sort of sensible and worked out proposals and the e. U. Is sitting maker and what we make of this how do we possibly deal with someone like that whos essentially trying to threaten us rather than negotiate with just him now speaking as a german looking at this situation and also with an incoming head of the e. U. Commission who is herself a former german politician what do you think how much leeway and how much political will is there in brussels to try to find a different solution for the socalled irish backstop i do sing there still is. A portion of good will in brussels not to have the situation deteriorating and. Boyce is in brussels saying maybe we were not totally corresponding to Prime Minister may at the time ever she wanted to get it through the house we could have been more generous and so i think even was on the other side if there is something russian along the way we could just i mean is there any real opening if you look at the law here we have a very clear law that any change in ireland borders must be agreed by the irish people that is law how can brussels possibly offer anything different than what has been negotiated but i mean there are always ok no question but so solutions which have been discussed in there because what everybody i dont know about mr johnson but the rest of the civilized world in britain and what not once is a restart of the Irish Catholic and protestant Northern Ireland the troubles as it was cold and everybody is very happy we have the good friday agreement of the city years ago and stick to that i mean even johnson could be very very careful to if that comes out out of his his proceedings that peace is broken and remembered stream of fall 5 months ago they were the 1st. Killed somewhere in this context is that starts again this is the end and i mean having comings 100. 00 other whatever they are they had no undo the peace between Northern Ireland and the republic i mean this is no way that he would disagree with you to a certain extent like im personally take that point of view and i think playing with with the Peace Process norman is a dangerous thing but ultimately london has not paid adequate attention to the problems of the Northern Ireland issue right since before the referendum and actually the one just kind of hopes it just stays there. On the other divided and so ultimately its not been adequately dealt with now for more than 3 years and so therefore the sticks the key questions of dealing with the Northern Ireland border issues still remain unresolved and so ultimately thats what Boris Johnson has not understood he cant just go off to brussels to say get rid of the bike stop until hes got a workable proposal to replace it with something thats not been forthcoming so now lets talk again about timing these new bills that have been passed by the parliament this week which essentially put off the deadline for the bracks it decision until the end of the year is there any chance that a different agreement no matter what political constellation we wound up with whether or not Boris Johnson stays that a new different agreement could be negotiated by that are they just kicking the can down the road once more while this is the problem isnt it because if they are kicking the can down the road which im sure many in brussels will be looking at and thinking if we do give the u. K. Another extension what is it full a key question what was quite interesting when this bill which was passed the house of commons the moment still has to as were speaking still has to get through the house of lords though were expecting that to happen and then goes to the queen for that for roll a sense of to be signed off what was postes through an amendment to say a change to this bill that was included within the last hour to reason mays withdrawal deal to be put back to parliament this is the deal that was voted down 3 times in parliament could possibly could we see it coming back and that being a way for parliament to be able to vote on not again m. P. s ok not those corporate citizens who cannot vote for the backstop but for other m. P. s to say this is better than a no dale there is. The possibility of joining us can you tell me what the british people make of all of this what are you hearing from family and friends this week. There are 2 components to this 1st is the British Population is generally sick of this argument right they want to solution this this kind of how if we still wont solve this thats one component to it give us a solution and indeed politicians are playing with that Boris Johnson said like if you dont want to have to hit the brakes tell me more than give me my deal will give you my majority but on the other side the population is also still very divided right the general population is a little bit more program main than it was at the referendum. In them opinion polls theres a small majority of remain these days but the population is still very divided into 2 camps theres no be much move since the since the referendum so this is the howards summit up still splits involve the joy of kind of had enough of this argument but just because theyve had enough of the argument doesnt mean we should still to stop talking about it or stop trying to seek Political Solutions certainly for detail and what we do see from the polls is an enormous mistrust and actually discussed with the politicians in london so how do you think that would play out if snap elections do wind up being held because of course of course labor has said if this bill goes through if it is passed by the house of lords then they might be prepared to agree to snap elections how would you expect that to play out in in an election this distrust of politicians in general is the 100000 pound question nobody knows what is going to come out of it and whether the public is so fed up with it and maybe even go to have a well participation in voting which is gunned down to 42 percent or some say that as we just heard that theyre fed up with it but. Nobody knows what is in the heart of the voters whats going to come out and my up to mystic believe coming back britain has gone to a lot of crises nothing so spectacular what happened when no t. V. Was around 100 years ago or 200 years ago but i still believe that at the end of the day if the rubbish is choky on the street and that then someone comes up and that we need to rush no solution and i am the one who going to lead it he could but i dont know feel my someone out of the tory ranks someone else when theyre all set up with his boys dungeon certain sorry i just want to bring in our last very short report here and then and then ill come to you alex but certainly if a snap election is held the economic consequences of a brics it with or without a deal are absolutely going to be at front and center of the debate in the past weeks we have seen a dramatic fall in the value of the pound and experts say that could just be the beginning of the economic problems that will result if forced johnson carries through on his policies lets take a look. The u. K. Leaving the e. U. Would damage the economies of both former partners but the british people would be most affected experts believe the u. K. Could descend into chaos as food and medication prices spike and possibly become short in supply european businesses are likely to retreat and the london stock market and british pound could crash the ports along the china endless lines of trucks waiting to enter a huge blow to the economy but you companies and especially export heavy german industrial corporations also risk losing billions all the u. K. And the e. U. Careering towards a recession. So alex remainders will undoubtedly be marshalling all of those arguments if in fact britain does wind up going to the polls where do you think were going to be on say november 1st and i have to ask for a quick answer because were almost out of the fear itself. I think there was still a very high possibility that there was a note that im not the 31st that is not rolled out there are still many things in play that have to be played out before it stops but theres still be a british Prime Minister johnson on october 31st. Oh gosh its a difficult one to call i think so at the moment i think that there will be dont hold me to it if you tell him what do you think where we had a. I dont believe in the snap election i do see that brussels might offer another period of 3 months to negotiate if that is being discussed and will stick to what ive said before it out of the muddled someone that were not going to run the country down someone has to take the banner and. Bring us back to sanity sounds like. A lot of optimism there how about you john worth on 1st november thats the day of the brits miss due to have left britain will not yet have left and one of secured an extension from the European Union to be in the European Union at least until january 2020 and will be in the middle of an Election Campaign which is incredibly fiercely fought probably to take place sometime in november so Boris Johnson will be fighting for his political life up against an opposition that is trying to unify against his present plans and so 1st of november we dont know whether it will yet be the end of course john somebody might be on the way. Above to invite you all back for a 2nd round of the discussion after november 1st but if i did wed be discussing under another name than quadriga because ladies and gentlemen quadriga now ends with this show but the debate here at the will certainly go on we have a new exciting show coming up starting next week its called to the point be sure to tune in thanks so much for joining us all these years long on quadriga and thanks to all of you for being here as well as i. Move. Ana. Alexander fountain more of our series on tomorrow today we want to see what he saw to experience what drove the journey to latin america following in the footsteps of the great scientist. Next stop putting us in colombia trace in the history of slaves. Tomorrow to. Whom much was done. When i was conscious of the fight for survival. But all. These dangerous. Act floods and droughts the Climate Change become the main driver of mass migration you can buy a right any are going to be snide if you want and probably more of them will come to. The climate exodus. 75 minutes on d w. Or. The quiet melody rizzos in mind the light of the. Reasoning when its all. The mind and the music. Mean to. Confessed wrong 2019 from september 6th to september 29th. Where is home. With your family scattered across the globe. The book turning back to the roots you should get a minimum of the. Bush family from somalia live around the world that needed urgent assistance. Family starts october any on. The board. The boat. This is due to abuse live from berlin the end of a new era one of africas most polarizing leaders Robert Mugabe has died at the age of 95 for some the former president of zimbabwe was a Freedom Fighter for others a brutal dictator will look at his complex legacy and ask of people in zimbabwe likely to remain
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