involved but the investigators could have sought them because they are linked or in theory, the parent were using the children's phones or computers to have contact with journalists. so exactly how many democratic records were secretly seized? why were their families and children drawn into there? and were any republicans investigated? was this an explicit request from president trump? and at a higher level, what does all this mean for the justice department going forward? betsy a national correspondent for politico and just published an article in which william barr denied knowing anything, saying he didn't recall, hmm, getting briefed on the moves. she joins me now. betsy, there has been a lot of, well, cya spinning from william barr and jeff sessions which suggests to me that they at least understand, this doesn't look great. >> you know you're dealing with a big mess when barr and sessions don't want to touch it.