collect all of this evidence, they fire their subpoena cannon at the white house. but the second they cross that line, where impeachment hearings begin, if they don't have serious evidence of a high crime or misdemeanor, it's going to be viewed as a political stunt and trump will get the advantage. >> how do you define that, though, right? like, every -- one person sits here and says, boy, what he did with fox is an impeachable offense, ordering the justice department to try to get involved in this cnn merger, for instance. but that may not rise to the bar that matthew's talking about that gets you the 15 or 10 republicans that you need. >> right. i mean, we don't have a standard for what high crimes and misdemeanors are. and this is a political process. which is different than the legal process, which is what mueller is doing. but at the same time, you have the house, and we're talking about the house bringing articles in this. forget about the senate momentarily. you have the house, which in the past brought articles of impeachment against a president for perjury. it was a crime.