that kind of argument. >> are you concerned now that paul manafort could say that a promised pardon was hinted at. or the pardon was dangled during the joint defense agreement? >> i doubt that. i think the president was pretty care in what he said and how he said and what was said in public. so i don't think that's a real concern. i think the concern is putting together information that the prosecutor knows about but can't connect. we have to remember again, that collusion is not a crime, conspiracy is a crime, but conspiracy requires knowledge. and it's also possible that manafort was always acting on his own, to make more money. he was using the trump campaign, saying i'll make introductions, i'll help you, but that the trump campaign didn't really know about this. that's a likely explanation,