that's where he scores. >> howard, why are you so convips convico convinced a pardon is coming for manafort? >> let's assume the prosecution is good enough to get a couple charges here, you're talking five to ten years on any one of the charges. manafort will appeal, play for time as much as he can. they'll look for technical errors. we'll go to the further circuit. then it goes to the supreme court. my question is, when does donald trump think that he has -- i have no doubt in my miebd mind, and from people i know who talked to him that he wants to pardon manafort and wants to get rid of mueller. it's not a question of whether, it's a question of when. >> his other problem is a pardon may not work. >> it's not going to work on federal -- it will work on