from what they call a sources and megds standpoint, it sounds like a lot of information to give up particularly if the people you're charging are never going to jail because they're never coming to this country. like mueller's indictment of the chinese military attackers was meticulous in its detail down to specific actions and locations of specific individual named chinese hackers. the architect of that 2014 indictment and strategy behind it was a former u.s. attorney for the western pennsylvania, cybersecurity expert named david higdon. he started the u.s. government down this path. now we're seeing how it works in the russia scandal. joining us for the interview is that former u.s. attorney for the district of pennsylvania, now the founding director of the university of pug institute for cyber law and security. it's really nice to have you here. >> thank you for the invitation. >> was that a fair description that chinese hacker was the first time that had been done? >> well done. that was the first time that tool had been used and we indicted nation state