but it also strikes me someone like mick mulvaney, who wrote this budget by all appearances, genuinely believes in what he's doing. i mean the republicans who are proposing this, it is not politically popular, and it just seems to me they have affirmatively chosen this because they genuinely believe in the project they are engaged in. >> well, i wouldn't go so -- the answer is yes and no. they believe in it, but it doesn't hurt that the koch brothers, over many, many years, have spent hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars propping up and creating think tanks and all kinds of so-called nonprofits and putting unbelievable amounts of money into political campaigns. so what their view is, my perception is, they understand they're cutting medicaid, cutting pell grants, cutting nutrition programs, very politically unpopular. but on the other hand, they have unlimited sums of money from the billionaire class behind them to go after -- democrats go after

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