for people appropriately to behave differently in those different circumstances. >> but looking at all of these accounts that say it just doesn't help to behave differently under the circumstances. you're unswayed by that in your own personal experience, you think it does help to use more extreme practices. >> well, we -- i was back in happier era as director of central intelligence. not only did we not have interrogations of prisoners, we didn't have any prisoners. this was '93, '94, '95. i'm no expert at interrogation law. we didn't have to get into that. but i do think it's really very shortsighted of people to think that collecting intelligence from an individual is like connecting the dots as a lot of people say. if you're talking about a children's game, the dots are numbered. in the real world, the dots