the policy measures that democrats propose, and so that stiffens their resistance on climate. if we have a constructive conversation about the policy options that conservatives could support, we might have a different conversation about the science, itself. >> so, okay, you're agreeing with me that the reasoning is a sort of reverse engineering reasoning, which i understand. liberals do that, too, sometimes with certain things and that's a basic reaction we have as people with a set of priors, with a world view, right? so my question is, what are the acceptable -- what is the right way to go about reverse engineering, a productive conversation, if we can't talk about any of the possible interventions that might deal with the problem? >> well, you're wrong. we can talk about interventions that would deal with the problem. we just don't have to put climate front and center in it and don't have to talk about it as if the only way to engage with it is limiting emissions as the president has proposed through epa regulations, or as congress has proposed through a cap and trade system.