he begins to think through the whole thing and his book "love wins" you talked about when he was on the show is about that idea. nobody knows better about what is going on- >> about hell than jon meacham. >> that's a different story. >> jon obviously has been fascinated with theology a very long time. is the reverse of that also true, does bell believe if there's no hell there may be no heaven? >> well, i reduce it to this carrot and stick analogy people in religion use, you know, if you don't -- in the evangelical community, if you don't accept jesus as a savior, you're not going to heaven and therefore you're going to hell. he's basically saying religion should be in this more contemplated ethical way we live our lives than this kind of carrot and stick situation. >> isn't the very center of