you said. and the lehman president, joe gregory, was a master at disguising just how machiavellian what he was and going on at lehman. so i think in fairness to dick fuld he wasn't the only person blinded as to also -- all sorts of human resource maneuverings and things happening, the leverage being taken. joe gregory fooled him and fooled a whole lot of are people too. >> did you get the sense, or maybe you know this in the book, that hiding risk -- >> yeah. >> with the repos on the 105s was a business model. basically take on as much risk as you can, take your garbage, hide it when it is necessary and take more risk? >> yes. >> that's fraud! in my book. >> it was a way of life at lehman and not just -- the story starts back in the 1970s when the traders would hide their
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