need which is roads, schools, bridges, infrastructure in this country. that helps to get the small person working who gets money for small businesses. the average person working spending dollars spend s it on small business which spends it. the dollars roll over. >> sounds like a stimulus bill that didn't get the economy stimulated when the money was supposed to go out for roads, infrastructure and all that. here we are . >> two points. >> okay. >> one, all the money didn't go out. the money that did go out did keep us from going over -- well, we did go over the cliff but it padded the landing. it would have been worse without stimulus. >> a lot of people say, look, since the government didn't do a great job, the fear of what would have happened, the argument isn't always very convincing. the american people were promised more, i think. that was the problem. since it didn't have a success there ought to be another way.