for ten years, the russian democrats did everything they could to convey the message to the west that if we were interested in the future of democracy in russia, the last thing we should do is expand nato. first wave of nato expansion comes in 1999. guess when vladimir putin first comes on to the political scene in moscow. let's talk about 2008 and the bucharest summit in which nato membership is raised for georgia and the ukraine. the georgian war comes soon after that. and in 2014, the big issue on the agenda with the ukraine was whether it was going to move closer to europe and the eu. >> professor desch, right now, do you believe nato plays an important role in the protection of western europe? certainly latvia, estonia, front line states certainly believe it does. do you believe it does? >> well, i understand why they believe it does. i'm not sure that all europeans -- >> i'm asking do you believe it does. >> do i believe that it does? i believe that the europeans are fully capable of defending themselves with or without the united states. and i think that in some respects, nato has been an irritant and made the situation with russia worse. it takes two to tangle in, you know, international relations and my point is not to defend the president or president putin, but simply say that history didn't start with in 2014 with the russian invasion of crimea. >> i got it. professor desch, i appreciate it. christiane amanpour, as well. we want to turn to another aspect of diplomacy that can't be overlooked, certainly is not this time. it's a contact sport conducted face-to-face, eye to eye. chemistry matters. facial expressions matter. the president himself says so and spoke at length about it after his encounter with kim

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