without the president's knowledge. juliet, i find it hard to believe. flynn would have had to have gone rogue to have that conversation just when obama imposed those sanctions. i'm sorry, i can't buy into the idea he was out there as a lone wolf without the president's knowledge, the president-elect's. >> i don't buy that either. i find it har d to believe a series of conversations are going on while the obama administration are putting sanctions on not known to trump and his closest political advisers. the proof of that seems to be in how trump handled information from department of justice that they were worried about what flynn was disclosing to vice president pence and that he could be sort of blackmailed by the russians. the fact that trump sat on that information for three weeks and only responded when "the washington post" and other news organizations disclosed it showed that trump didn't really care. if you want to -- none of it -- there's no moment in which i can say yes, it is proof, but