Transcripts For CSPAN3 Caroline 20240703

The Lincoln Forum continues good morning. My name is Jonathan White and im the vice chair of the Lincoln Forum, and it is a pleasure to introduce caroline janey. Caroline janey is the john l. Now the third professor in this history of the American Civil War at the university of virginia where she also serves as director of the john l. Now the third center for Civil War History where she succeeded her mentor Gary W Gallagher she is the author or editor of seven books and is one of the series editors for the university of North Carolina presses prestigious civil war america series. She has served as the president of the society of civil war historians and is here to talk about her new book ends of war the unfinished fight of lees army after appomattox. Im about 30 pages in and it is riveting. It is a wonderful book and i just this morning saw a brand new review that appeared in todays wall street journal by someone named harold holzer. And he calls it immensely readable and utterly convincing. Please join me in welcoming caroline janey. Good morning. So first a big big thanks to john. Cell phones in my classroom when they go off the entire class gets a quiz. So we can institute that policy right now if that will help curtail the cell phones a big. Thank you to jonathan for for everything and a deep deep. Thank you to harold for inviting me in for a review that i am truly most humbled by so so thank you to everyone and thank you for all of you for coming out in person. So i think were going to get straight. To appomattox, or at least after appomattox . In the years since 1865. Im sure many of you in this room have used appomattox as a shorthand as a short hand for referring to end of the war. Appomattox was and continues to be seen as the end of lees army and therefore the end of the American Civil War. In fact the events between april 9th and april 15th. 1865 have become so well known that i think we take them for granted. We almost seem to read lincolns assassination a week after lease surrender as a postscript. As a close to the war. An event that had little to no effect on how the war ended other than placing Andrew Johnson in the white house which is of course a whole nother story. But what if we step back . What if we try to experience the month between april 15th . In may 15th 1865 day by day uncertain as to what is going to come next. How does the world look differently . How does the end of the war look differently . In particular, how does lincolns assassination complicate or change the policies that grant had set in motion at appomattox . So thats what were going to do this morning. Were going to look closely at that period from april 9th to may of 1865 in an effort to grapple with the uncertainty surrounding the socalled end of the confederacy. And ill point out as a caveat that while Joe Johnstons army was absolutely important. Were going to focus on lees army because lees army is what both confederates and the union high command saw as the most important confederate army. And well start where we should start in mcleans parlor at appomattox. Well begin with the surrender terms that grant offered lee that day. The first was standard in most surrenders confederates would turn in their weapons and their flags. As of vicksburg grant allowed the rebels to go home on parole. Its a really important point that i think we sometimes gloss over they went home as prisoners of war on parole. So rather the than being sent to prisoner of war camps. They go home as paroled prisoners of war. But grant added a provision that had not appeared in other surrenders and one that would prove controversial from the moment that he offered it. That is that paroled confederates would not be disturbed by us authorities. So long as they maintained Good Behavior in other words so long as they didnt break any laws. By including this provision grant had tacitly acknowledged lee soldiers as enemy combatants. And as such they could not be traitors. They could not be tried for treason for waging war. The following morning meeting with lee grant before he did so he would issue special orders number 73 which allowed paroled prisoners of war to have these passes that we are so familiar with these passes that allowed them to go through union lines when necessary to get rations when necessary to allow them to travel free on government railroads and steamers when need be the marks that you see on the passes. Theres our stamps from Provost Marshals office. We also have another and i dont expect you to be able to read this but just know that what this is including this is for a soldier from hoods brigade going home to texas and as late as july of 1865. Hes stopping at Union Provost marshal offices and getting provisions. Hes getting transportation on his way home. So these parole passes are documents that allow these paroled soldiers to do this. The problem was a substantial portion of lees army had not surrendered at appomattox and here were going to do some very rough math. So bear with me of the 60,000 men that lee had available to him. In the trenches around petersburg and richmond as of april 1st. At most 28,000 of those surrendered at appomattox if we account for the casualties along the way between april 2nd and april 8th somewhere around 11,500 casualties a conservative estimate would suggest there were 20,000 men who should have surrendered with lees army at appomattox who failed to do so. Why well, the reasons were as varied as the men themselves some had been foot sore and straggling footstore and starving stragglers unable to keep up with the relentless pace of lees army as it pressed west hoping to find that connection to move south and join joe johnston. Some of these men had dropped out of the ranks because they believed there was little use and resisting anymore. And they simply elected to go home. Others saw the writing on the wall. And hope to avoid what they saw as the humiliation of surrender, there are even letters from a few soldiers who talk about their fears of being marched through the streets of washington as prisoners of war. Some of them simply refuse to acquiesce and made it past the union lines. This is especially true for a number of calvarymen somewhere around 2,000 calvary troopers or other artillery mint. I love these maps from the American Battlefield trust that can can show us rosser and munford and others fits you lee that are escaping the union cordon. We often forget that there was a small battle on the morning of april 9th. Some of these men made it all the way to lynchburg some disbanded some went home for good. Others went home to await word from men like general rosser. Indeed on april 12 the very day that leaves infantry was participating in the formal surrender ceremony that very same day rosser had written to staunton virginia where he issued a proclamation. And again, i dont expect you to be able to see it but heres evidence that it exists. This is a proclamation that he notes is from the headquarters of the army of northern, virginia. Stop for a moment and think about that the army of Northern Virginia is supposed to be at appomattox participating in a formal surrender. And here we have rosser not only declaring this the headquarters of the Army Northern virginia and stanton, but hes also given himself a nice little promotion. Hes now a lieutenant general. And heres what he has to say. He called upon his men to shoulder their arms and muskets once more returned to the field to meet the arrogant invader who had insulted you. Robbed you murdered your dearest friends and relatives. Outraged your fair women despoiled your homes and dishonored all that is most dear and sacred. He promised he would lead his men against this dastardly foe. And promised he would Never Surrender until quote the purple current ceases to flow from my heart or until you are a Free Independent and happy people. Rise like men and come to me. He commanded. He instructed companies and regiments to assemble in charlottesville in stanton or in lynchburg without delay. In other words for men like rosser the war was not over yet. Others headed nor had it south to North Carolina where they hoped to join the forces of Joseph E Johnston continue the fight. In short appomattox represents a great irony it was and continues to be seen as the end of these army and by extension the civil war. But a significant portion of lees army had refused to see it as such for them. The war had not quite yet ended. Grant knew this he knew that there were men missing from the ranks. So what of these 20,000 men . Did the terms that grant had offered at appomattox applied to them . Were they to be included in the surrender . When the morning of april 10th secretary of War Edwin Stanton wrote to grant asking if the troops operating in Loudoun County in particular namely hes concerned about jonas mosby and his partisans he stanton writes to grant and he asks whether these men are to be included in the surrender terms or only those under lees immediate personal command. Grant writes back the surrender was only of the men left with the pursued army at the time of the surrender those that had escaped or were detached to the time are not included. But in this very same telegram the same response to stanton grant shows his flexibility. Even though these men had not been included. He says they should be they should all be included that the terms should be offered to quote all the fragments of the army of Northern Virginia so that they might voluntarily surrender. Generosity flowed naturally from a winning commander who was extending the magnanimous terms that lincoln had told him he should do at appomattox. But we are mistaken to think that it is just a magnanimous gesture on grants part. There is more to this than that. On the morning of april 10th grant was not so sure that the war was over he did not believe that lees forces and then and certainly all the other forces had fully capitulated. An underscoring all of this was grants fear of continued warfare. When he spoke to lee on the morning of april 10th. Lee had pointed out quote the south was a big country and that we might have to march over at three or four times before the war had finally ended. Had this given grant pause. If the cycles of retaliation continued with the likes of mosby and other gorillas, even with the surrender of the main armies this war might never end. Grant needed every single rebel to lay down his guns. Including the partisan rangers included those men who had escaped surrendering at appomattox. You see for grant parrolling was a deterrent. It was a means of keeping these men from fighting the war by other means and he admitted that he saw paroled soldiers as more trustworthy than disloyal citizens and here is where we see grant the soldier really coming into play. He believes that the men would be on our bound by their paroles. And of course the punishment for breaking your parole was according to the libra code was death. Given these set of circumstances on the evening of april 10th stanton wrote to Major General Winfield Scott hancock who was headquartered in winchester and stanton ordered hancock to print and circulate the entire correspondence between lee and grant that had eventually led to the surrender. So those those letters back and forth that were well familiar with stanton once hancock to print these to prove to any rebels who might be hiding out in the Shenandoah Valley that in fact lee has capitulated the secretary instructed hancock that quote all detachments and stragglers from the army of Northern Virginia who voluntarily turned themselves into Union Authorities would be protected under the same terms of parole. They would be permitted to go to their homes. So throughout winchester and throughout the rest of the lower valley you would find these flyers tacked throughout the city and then if thats not enough hancock has printed in the newspaper and announcement again, i dont expect you to read it, but the announcement says basically come in come in and get paroled. He promises that every military restraint shall be removed. That is not absolutely essential in other words. This war will be over if you want it to be over come in seek your parole. He promises and listened. This is hancock i think speaking to to women as much. As anyone he promised that your sons your husbands and your brothers shall remain with you unmolested if they will come in voluntarily. But then theres the also the this is that the carrot part the stick part is that if they dont come in voluntarily if we have to to go out seek them and arrest them then they will be detained. They will sit they will be sent to northern prisoner of war camps. Well, this works in the days and weeks that followed thousands of leaves men throughout virginia decided that it was in fact in their best interest to turn themselves in and one of the really fascinating things that i found in my research were all of these paroles that took place in sites throughout, virginia into West Virginia, maryland, North Carolina and beyond its very rough map here, but just to give you a sense of the timing in the days immediately following appomattox. Between april 12th and april 16th some 2800 paroles. Where were in lynchburg at burkeville, which is to the right the other red circle that you see there to the to the southeast of appomattox the Provost Marshal recorded more than 1600 names between april 14th and april 17th. These parolees are going on first in in areas that are proximate to appomattox, but were going to them spread out. And heres where lincolns assassination comes into the story. Contrary to what we might expect. Rather than suspending the parrolling process. Lincolns assassination made it all the more pressing that the remnants of lees army who had not surrendered yet do so. You see reports of marauders had only intensified efforts to find and parole. All of lees men. Along the Northern Neck in virginia up and down the Shenandoah Valley in the counties just north of richmond and across the potomac into maryland the United States cavalry went out on a mission hunting any rebel who had not yet been paroled. Their chief target was none other than john s mosby and his rangers. Indeed in midapril confederate artillerists kenna king chapman from richmond observed that quote the guerrilla mosby seems to hang over these yankee lines like some frightful nightmare and they seem to suspect every man as belonging to his command. Grant had long insisted that gorillas remained the chief threat to peace. But rumors that mosby was complicit in lincolns assassination. Had only fueled grants desire to smash all elements of irregular resistance. There was talk in washington that moseby had in fact met with booth in the capital. And some suggested that the assassins had crossed the potomac and were endeavoring to make their way to mosbys rangers. Indeed lewis powell alias lewis payne who attempted to assassinate secretary steward. Had been part of mosbys command. He had deserted in january of 1865. Is reason to believe that perhaps mosby is involved in all of this. Yet again we head back to winchester. Where general Winfield Scott hancock was charged with compelling mosby to surrender. Even before lincolns assassination hancock had forwarded to mosby copies of that exchange of letters between grant and lee. Had offered the rangers the same terms that had been offered to everyone else. But the possibility of assassins escaping through the valley had heightened hancock sense of urgency. Not just where mosby was concerned but for any and all on paroled rebels. Hancock now instructed his Provost Marshals to include information that had not been included on those parole passes that were printed at appomattox. Even at lynchburg and farmville. Now you can see this parole pass looks much different than that that was given out at appomattox now in addition to to the the name the regiment and company now theres a physical description. The age the height complexion hair color eye color all of this was to be included. Perhaps this information would be helpful in confirming paroles. Or more ominously in identifying those who had been involved in the assassination. So hancock sends out calvary patrols up and down the valley looking for detached units looking for stragglers and many of them are coming in and what we need to keep in mind is there is this heightened period of anxiety not just for loyal unionists. But also for confederates many of those men and were talking especially cavalry and artillery here who had horses and had the ability to get away. Are worried they know that these paroles have been offered but will they be taken off the table following lincolns assassination many of them conclude that in fact, they better go in while they can and get paroled. Within a week been a week of this nearly 1,800 men had been paroled in the Shenandoah Valley. Other parole sites included richmond, northumberland, louisa, charlottesville, fairfax, and i want to give you a sense of how this will change. These are the paroles that ive been able to locate between april 10th and april 14th. Look what happens after lincolns assassination. They just absolutely blossom more and more men are coming in. Theres more of an urgency on the behalf of both confederates and at Union Provost marshals in to find these men. If most of these men willingly sought paroles others found themselves arrested for failing to do so. In the Early Morning hours of april 15th. For example, Brigadier General william. Hf payne was arrested by the federal cavalry at his home in warrenton, virginia. Now he would claim when he was arrested that he had actually just been getting ready to go see hancock and to turn himself in. Its a nice claim. But amid the manhunt for the assassins he was sent to washingtons old capital prison. On april 21st. He was sent on to johnsons island in ohio. He would not be released until june 2nd, but keep in mind. He doesnt know that hes going to be released at all. Hes going to sit in prison for a long time for failing to seek out his parole. Then theres mosby. Mosby continued to refuse to surrender his command. Despite several meetings with hancocks subordinates at millwood mosby elected to disband his rangers on april 21st, rather than surrender them. His final act as a colonel complete mosby and six of his men. Climb destroyed their horses and they headed south they headed south to richmond where mosby said that he hoped to confer with lee and find out how he might continue this war. The majority of his men, however road not south but northwest they headed to winchester. By the evening of april 22nd at least 380 rangers had surrendered themselves to hancock including mosbys second in command Lieutenant Colonel william h chapman. Equally if not more important hancock reported that he had convinced some of mosbys men to pursue their commander motivated by a 2,000 reward. My how the tables have turned so if paroleing not only continued but intensified in the wake of lincolns assassination the president s murder also changed the circumstances for many of these men who had already been paroled. For starters on april 9th or following april 9th. I should say in the days following april 9th large numbers of paroled prisoners began streaming into washington into baltimore and even as this would cut illustrates into new york city taking steamers via fort monroe. You see they hoped to sail from fort monroe. Go up through the Chesapeake Bay go to baltimore and from baltimore. They hoped to get on rail lines. Perhaps head west to cincinnati to louisville. So these are soldiers who claimed that they are going to kentucky to tennessee and other places. But hearing from an exasperated general lew wallace in baltimore. Especially in the wake of lincolns assassination grant is going to change the terms that he offered at appomattox, especially in regards to that special orders number 73 that came on the morning of april 10th. Let me read to you from grants response to wallace. It was no part of the agreement that we were to transport or feed paroled prisoners. By the terms of the surrender they were allowed to return to their homes and i ordered that their paroles should be a pass to go through our lines where it was necessary to do so to reach their homes and that when they traveled on roads or boats run exclusively by the government, no fair would be collected. I did not calculate that men from North Carolina, south carolina. And georgia would expect to go home by way of, new york. Why would one think so . In other words, he says we are not furnishing transportation anymore. That deal is off the table part of the problem though doesnt have to do with baltimore or new york it has to do with richmond. Confederates are flooding into richmond both those who are paroled and those unrolled and we can see here this mingling on the Capital Square of union and confederate soldiers. They are descending upon the Spotswood Hotel which had been a place that many confederates had enjoyed having us cigar some nice brandy during the war. Theyre infuriated that Union Soldiers are now occupying Spotswood Hotel. There are brawls that break out here. Theyre remember officers have been allowed to keep their side arms at appomattox confederate officers. So there is a rule that goes up in the Spotswood Hotel that no one can have their sidearms. Because things are getting a little too heated. Theyre also getting paroled in richmond. And this is a photograph from the library of congress collection. That weight raw is pointed out to me just last week that if you scrolled in tight enough on the the white house the confederacy, you can see this line of confederate soldiers and the question is are they there . At paroled we know theyre being paroled in the Customs House eventually, but perhaps these are men who have have lined up to get paroled. Whats going on, though . Is that general ord whos in command . Wants to get rid of all these confederates that are descending on the capitol of virginia, and hes given passes to a few officers and men to travel through northern cities. He said it would be better to have them disperse to have them gone than to have them all congregating here in richmond. This is a city that was already bursting at the seams some 25,000. Destitute women children africanamerican and white are are flooding the city and ord is at his wits end. But grant an orange is writing to grant telling him whats going on grant is becoming increasingly frustrated. And we can see no doubt less magnanimous in the wake of lincolns murder. He shoots back strict guidelines to ord that are very similar to those that he sends to wallace in baltimore that says no more. Theyre not to be sent north. Were not providing transportation anymore, but grant is so infuriated at this point. He adds one more provision quote all issues of forage and subsistence to them must also be discontinued. So for those of you that might be familiar with the notion of rations that were given at appomattox this magnanimous gesture by this point grant has had it hes saying no more. So we have this flood of confederates people hadnt thought about what to do with these men. There are other issues that are going on too within the union lines at alexandria and fairfax returning confederates are now being required to show up at the Provost Marshals office and display their parole pass to prove. In fact, they have been paroled. They their names are being printed in the local newspapers the alexandria alexandria gazette is filled every day with names of returning rebels. No doubt a warning to loyal unionist. Theres also the fact that an alexandria several hundred paroled rebels were being held in a former slave pin. Could this be any more ironic . Men who had gone to war to protect their rights as slaveholders. Who had bought and traded human flesh from the confines of this prison are now being held here as prisoners of war. All of this was a reminder that these men were in fact prisoners of war. They were not free men and it was unclear what their status would be in this postwar. If in fact we can call it a postwar world. So while many of lee soldiers are facing this type of situation. Others face the proposition that they had no homes to which to return. On april 16th the day following lincolns death hancock again back in the valley telegraphed Major General henry hallock as to whether confederate soldiers from loyal states. Would be allowed to return to their homes in april 16th is the very first instance that i find of this. Thats why i think its absolutely connected to lincolns assassination. Hancock informs hallock of this. He says many confederate officers and soldiers from missouri and other loyal states are coming here on their paroles desiring to go to their homes. Thus far i have detained them. You see this is yet another problem that the War Department had not considered. What do you do with the 75,000 confederates from the loyal border states men who had left their loyal states and gone off to war to fight for the confederacy . Its one thing to send paroled confederates back to states that had been in a state of disunion where the majority of the population. Had been in rebellion where the terms for the entire state were still up for debate. How would they be readmitted to the union . But sending them back to loyal states. Back to places where the vast majority of the population was. In fact loyal. Should they be allowed to return there . Especially in the wake of lincolns assassination. Especially with the likes of booth and others that are from maryland. Should they be allowed to return home . But in the week following lincolns death both grant and attorney general james speed would offer opinions and policies that modified those terms that had been offered on april 9th. Imperative for us to keep in mind that johnstons army is still in the field kirby smith is still in the field. It is not clear that this war is over. On april 19th the day of lincolns funeral in washington. Grant informed hancock that quote all who claim homes and states that never passed ordinances of secession have forfeited them and they can only return on compliance with the amnesty proclamation. In other words. They had to take the oath in order to go home. He spells out which states he means, maryland, kentucky, delaware and missouri are such states. They may return to West Virginia on their paroles. Well come back to that in a moment. Following the controversy over the terms that sherman had initially offered to joe johnston in North Carolina, which proved both overly generous and overtly political. Secretary of where stanton had asked attorney general james speed to weigh in on his legal opinion of grants terms. So not even the terms that shermans offering but grants terms and specifically speed had several questions dealing with rebel soldiers coming back to loyal states. On april 22nd speed would offer his opinion which said in part . First rebel officers and soldiers who appeared in public in their uniform were breaking their parole and therefore should be arrested and detained. Keep in mind april 9th. Surrender terms had said nothing about confederates wearing their uniforms. Second like grant speed declared that rebels had no homes and loyal states. To this end. He said they could not return to, maryland, missouri, kentucky and delaware. They could return to West Virginia. Well general lou wallace up there in baltimore. He has been waiting for Something Like this. He wastes no time implementing these orders i should say. Its its an opinion by the attorney general that grant then turns into a general order which means that all the military now has to to enforce this. So wallace will order the immediate arrest and imprisonment of confederate marylanders who had already returned home. He issued a circular throughout the newspapers calling for all loyal citizens to help ferret out offenders. In other words, this isnt just a problem playing out among the union high command. On april 24th the Baltimore City council formally protested the return of any rebels quote believing as we do their presence in our midst will be a constant source of irritation fraught with a deadliest mischief. Again, we have to keep the assassination and mind here. A group of unionists in frederick, maryland and in Carroll County bard confederates from returning theres an Allegheny County created what they called a committee of vigilance and safety. Do you hear the revolutionary war rhetoric here . These committees which were created in all the counties that you see shaded here. So the Northern Tier of the maryland counties their job was to look out for returning rebels report any confederate who might return to the state. Benjamin harris a citizen of maryland and a democratic member of congress was arrested on april 26th the same day that johnston would eventually surrender and booth would be killed a harris was arrested for giving money to two paroled army of Northern Virginia soldiers so that they might disregard their paroles and quote continue to make war on the United States. The war is not over. And an early may in shepherdstown, maryland henry kit douglas was arrested and tried by a military commission for wearing his confederate uniform in public in other words violating his parole. These are all ways in which we can see those terms changing. But in West Virginia unionists felt particularly stung by speed and grants decisions, which said that rebels could return to West Virginia. Now while West Virginians were equally as unhappy about the likes of a potential boost in their midst. They had another reason for being worried. West virginia had been admitted as a state to the union in 1863. But it wasnt clear that this was going to hold there was a great deal of fear that virginia would reclaim those counties that had had left the state to reclaim them as part of virginia and if rebels returned and voted they could potentially outnumber unionists and the state might in fact revert to virginia. Theres some 18,000 West Virginians who had fought for the confederacy. In other words unionists face the prospect of having thousands of paroled confederates returning to a state they had been trying to destroy and so what do we see the same pattern that we see in maryland . In late april and early may at least 12 different communities and union strongholds past resolutions barring formal former rebels from returning home. These are more than just resolutions though. For example in Marion County when reports surfaced of two rebels who had returned home the local union guard goes to their mothers house asks to see the men. She says theyre not here. Well, guess what they were hiding up in the mountains and they were found one was shot and killed and the other was severely wounded. The violence was continuing. There is much much more to the story including as it relates to lincolns assassination the decisions of Andrew Johnson and certainly the story of African Americans both free and enslaved. But id like to leave you with this. Rather than serving as a clear ending to the war. The surrender of lees army at appomattox brought into stark relief. The many legal social and political questions that had plagued the war since its beginning. Equally as important. Rather than seeing lincolns assassination as a postscript to the war. We need to think about the ways in which it shaped the words ending. Indeed it had an enormous immediate. We can debate whether it had a longterm effect or not, but it had immediate effect revealing both the flexibility. The ambiguous nature of grants terms and the willingness to change those terms if necessary. Chief among the questions that were to be asked was with the paroles serve as blanket pardons for every confederate soldier including the likes of lee. Many of these questions would come to the front over the summer of 1865. But all would serve as background for one of the chief questions of reconstruction. Where would former rebels fit into this new nation . Thank you. We have time for questions. Please come to the mics on either side so that you can be heard by your fellow members of the audience. Hi, im Melissa Williams from whitesboro, new york us history teacher at Central Valley academy. My question is is if these. Confederate soldiers whose homes were in the border states where are they supposed to go if theyre not allowed to go back to their homes . So, thank you, melissa, and thank you for what youre doing on the different lines in the class . Youre welcome. So grant and speed and others say not our problem. I mean if youre willing so theres another little piece of this story too. And thats in hampton, virginia or any place where the union army has occupied where the Freedmens Bureau has has set up camp a former governor wise of virginia comes back to one of his farms, and its a Freedman School and he complains and says thats my property and they say not anymore. No, those those legal questions will will get hammered out over the next couple of years, but grant and others feel like that. Thats not their problem if you were willing to give up your and go fight. For rebellion for the confederacy then that is no longer their problem. Do you want the spoiler alert . Sure . Much of this is going to be rolled back in the summer of 1865 but this is an immediate way of trying to dampen down one of that great question. Hello rufus collins. I wanted to ask about the atmosphere in dc itself, and whether they were you know, you lose people at loose and and whether you know booth was sort of on his own or just how many, you know, either paroled or on on. Surrendered confederates were kind of at large and enabling the you know, the assassination great question. So washing is a tender box booth has made it out of the city that night but people are uncertain where he is how many conspirators he has rumors are running wild. And as these confederates most of the confederates that back to washington in particular are those who had homes there before . Thats not always the case. There are lots of exceptions that Porter Alexander is someone who goes to washington as well, but but many of them are coming back and there are reports in all of the newspapers saying hey these men are back and weve got to do something about these men and the the notion of whose paroled and whos not where it connects to booth is that theres a whether its rumor or not. Cant confirm whether its true or not. I should say it that way, but there are stories going around that booth is passing him off passing himself off as a paroled confederate and that thats how hes getting around that he has a fake parole pass. I know these existed they were blank passes most many of the parole passes that that you see from appomattox werent they were given out, but they werent filled out until later and some men are filling them in on their own men who hadnt been at appomattox. So to washington dc as a whole this is this is why speed is so concerned this is why. Why stanton is so concerned this notion that all of these confederates are just willynilly coming back as if there had never been a war in the first place. So it is it is fraught with tension. Thank you very much. Thank you. Hello, mary student scholar, so i was wondering it seems we both agree that lis surrender was not the end of the war. Do you personally have an opinion on when the war actually ended . Thats the 10 Million Dollar question. Right mary. So ill put it this way. Im gonna walk a tight rope of a bit here. I do think it is. Absolutely essential that leaves army the bulk of lees army has surrendered that lee himself has surrendered. That is a signal people from the east coast to to San Francisco are celebrating the surrender at appomattox as the end of the war and so there is this sense that this four long years of what people have been going through is coming to an end and i will say that that thinking of the pandemic if we can think weve only been in this how many months now and we are anxiously awaiting the end you can imagine that everyone whatever side youre on once the war to end. So theres this fer hope that the war is coming to an end, but the legal question of when the war is coming to an end. That wont be resolved for quite some time. Andrew johnson will declare it over in april of 66 for every state except texas, but i think you know, you dont have the major armies fighting anymore. So in that sense, yes, the war is for all intents and purposes over but people dont know that for sure. So thats the benefit of hindsight. We can look back and say thats how it played out, but its not Crystal Clear in that moment. Thank you. Thank you for your question. Hi christian recorder Abraham Lincoln president ial library museum. Thank you for that fascinating talk carrie, and i cant wait to read your book. Id like to try to bridge it with your previous work though, and ask you a memory question because part of what made that talk so fascinating is thats a completely forgotten story. So, why does this whole story you just told and more just get dropped from our memory of the civil war altogether. Christian thats a great great question. So i think what youre asking in particular is this failure to surrender at appomattox. Is that the piece of the puzzle . Yeah, and just this whole aftermath of what happens after appomattox like you say the the narrative is appomattox and you know to putting aside the other surrenders, but yeah, just a messy this all is right and i think so we can talk about the the origins of the lost cause that certainly at play there, but i also think Union Soldiers, especially the army of the potomac and to a lesser extent the army the james are are very much responsible for this narrative too. They want to see appomattox as the end of the war if you look at union regimentals, you look at letters and diaries so many of them are focusing on the war as the end and when those soldiers and veterans are the first ones writing the history of the war in many respects. Theyre the ones telling their stories both in in publications and at gatherings. Thats the narrative that they wouldnt tell thats the neat ending to the war. Thats grant the magnanimous. Sure, and so all of that plays nicely into a Union Narrative as much as it plays into the lost cause in a completely different way. So i think thats part of the story and it but you dont have to dig very deep to find this looking through the confederate veteran. There are lots of stories of men who claim i Never Surrendered and theyll talk about leaving before the surrender at appomattox. So its there. Its just not part of the mainstream narrative that people want to emphasize whether thats for union or reconciliation or otherwise. Yeah. Thank you really interesting stuff. Thank you. Up pop quiz in your research. Did you run across how the in your research that you run across how they were going to treat or any confederated came back into northern states like indiana and ohio i saw from the map that there were these committees in near the border and did you find out how the governments planning to deal with that particular problem . I didnt werent part of the border states, but thats something question and i think thats something that would make a great seminar paper or a grad student paper great question, but i dont have an answer to it. Okay last question mel berger from boston. Is it any bit surprising that the departure from afghanistan was so chaotic given what you described that was not part of the myth of the reality of of appomattox. Well, i certainly couldnt have timed the book to come out as it did in the midst but i mean on very serious note i lot of reading thinking about how wars and over space and time. In fact, i taught a grad course on the several years ago and from that perspective. No that these nice neat clean endings that we think we have i dont think of ever truly been the case and certainly not in the 20th century when we think about neverending wars the war on terror. How do you define an end to a world terror or even something such as the war on drugs . When is there a definitive date that that ends so i had already been thinking about the messiness of all of that so its not surprising to me at all that its not as neat and clean. Because it never has been. Thank you. Thank you