Transcripts For CSPAN3 Women 20240703

Lecturers, retired u. S. Army historian dr. Speaking on the womens spies of dday. Well have the lecture. Well have time for q a. And then we invite all of you to join dr. Holden and Committee Members downstairs for a reception and that, my friends, is more than enough for me. So, dr. Holden, the floor is yours. Good evening. Thank you very much. Its nice to see all of you here this evening. Were going to take a journey and time. But not that long ago when i first started with this program for the 75th anniversary, four years ago, we actually had some fellow citizens here from normandy who as children had lived through the bombardment on june 5th and june six. And it was incredible to hear their stories. I will attempt to give you an overview. Please understand i cannot touch on every hero. But what i would like to do is to give you a survey tonight and give you some pointers for a future Reference Research on your own. Its like the old library of Congress Series from the 1980s, and at the end of their hour long special would say and the library of congress recommends the following books, and theyd give you two or three or four books. Well, ill talk about some movies. Ill talk about some books. Ill talk about some future avenues of approach. Not everything has been declassified. There are still areas where you can not get into. I know that regarding my own fathers activities at the end of World War Two, at hitlers eagles nest with the band of brothers so bear with me. Well try to make this as intelligently presentable as possible. You may have to jump around with me a little bit because when you work in the field of intelligence, as i have, i had four top secret clearances and four different government agencies. You jump from that to dot and sometimes from dot to know that in order to make connections because a good Intelligence Analyst is putting together a jigsaw puzzle that the other side doesnt want you to put a put together. So with that in mind, the first slide and here you see. Members of i dont know which division they could be the fourth infantry division, they could be the 29th, which from here in virginia and maryland, or they could be big red one, the regular army division. Theyre going into the beaches on the morning of june 6th. And now i will attempt to if you find yourself on enterprise momentarily, youll know whats happened. There we are old friend george patton. You remember from last years lecture and the year before and the year before and the ye before. What would nywithout george . Well, as he would say, nothing but heres the starting quotation for tonight, and well have a num them. If if the proper study of mankind is mir proper study of warfare, our maps. Mapshe key to moving armies. Why is that . The American Army in europe, in World War Two, the average division of 20,000 men consume. 700 tons of supplies per day. Thats mind boggling. And you have to have a road network to do that with. You cant be hollywood and go traipsing over hillandale. It doesnt work that way. And were here tonight because our sister city is con france. And i would like for you to look over here. Heres normandy. Normandy is the key to liberating france, england. Theres no other proper area of beaches that can be covered by support and can be Landing Craft coming in from the english ports. But normandy. And theres paris. Why france . Cause france is the gateway to third reich. And heres the rhine river and the siegfried lineve got come in to normandy, swing through paris to get to the rhine and hitlers thirdch. Going to go to the movies. re 1970, patton. And theyre on the island, sicily, and theyve got huge maps of sicily. George and his headquarters. Says, messina, bill messinas the key to sicily. If they had let me land that syracuse and drive up the coast road. Messina, i have every german on this island now. Its the same thing with con, ladies and gentlemen. If youre going to go into normandy to get into northwest france, to get to the third reich, youve got to go through con imagine the Old Fashioned spoke wheel and the center hub that the roads come through north, south, east, west is con you cannot move an army through normandy unl you have a road network. The only exception, of course, is george pattoause he doesnt go through general mont, stays at con and visits there for six weeks. But thats another story. The next map on your right sho the relationship of con to paris. Heres the rhine river and the third reich. So you can see how important this is, this connection con is like a bow and arrow pointed at the heart of pears, and that points directly east to the ird reich. George knew what he was talking about. So did someone else. This gentleman fromrance, great napoleon master of continental warfare, a go is 20,000 soldiers. Because thats the equivalent of two divisions. And general eisenhower, our leader in the program will t on thatthing greatly others tlike. They see the big picture picture. Our first film, fatal, is an americ lady from minne, family it, b thats wherehow my theyre from. This is called name c. Cynthia was the nom de guerref of Amy Elizabeth fororn in 1910. She is a hollywood central cast model, tall, hair. They said she had the most piercing Emerald Green eyes. Anyone saw. She was fearless. She apso lutely was fearless. There wasnt. She wouldnt go or anything wouldnt do to achieve her goals, which were espionage. She comes here to washington, a teenager. She comes becomes very fluent and linguistics. And shes bitten by potomac fever. Probably the most deadly fever in the history of mankind. She goes over to spain during the spanish war in the 1930s. And she becomes deeply involved with british espionage in during their civil war. She then goes to for special Operations Executive mr. Churchills little plaything of spies in occupied europe. In the beginning of the war in vichy france. And she does a very credible job, so creditable all that a gentleman by the name of william stephenson, head of Security Operations throughout the entire western hemisphere. You know, his biography, a man called intrepid. He will her the most important spy of World War Two, four, two reasons, one for himself and england and one for general eisenhower. Power and operation torch, the invasion of north africa. What she does is theres a log jam on capitol hill. Gee, that sounds familiar. And senator arthur vanden berg is an old curmudgeon. And hes not going to on lendlease. In the spring of 1941, ill be darned if fdr is going to get lendlease over my vote. Cynthia goes to pay him a midnight visit. And, you know, the next day, he had seen the light and voted for it. And it got passed. Amazed. Because lend lease, say england as youve just been seeing on the fdr series. Then she goes to the french consulate up in the vichy french consulate in georgetown and see seduces a Senior Member of the staff. And while she is having her way with him but letting him think hes having his way with her. Lo and behold, a team of black bag fbi i safe crackers walk in through an open door. Go to the safe and the vichy consulate. Open it up. Pull out the code and cipher books to see if i remember all northwest africa was under vichy control. And they take them out and they photocopy him that night and take him back in just morning. No one the wiser. Those are the code and cipher books that enable general eisenhower to succeed fully launch operation torch. And of course, who else could lead it but george patton. But we need to go to georgetown. We didnt go to northwest africa. We can go six miles up the road to Arlington Hall on route 50. And collins brings road. It was Girls Finishing School as they were at that time, taken over by army signal intelligence. And heee old signal or the old signal school as it was when it was a Girls Finishing School. Theres book written about that cal girls highly recommended. Now they would work th in three shifts of 8 hours each a the clock, seven days a week, 365 days a year. Oby, they werent. Congressional people on capitol these very dedicateddule. Individuals,tly women, because women are much more patient overall than men and they have a much more heightened sense of detail than most men. These are generalized options, yes. But basically troop now on your right side is a photograph of a separate section that work there because virginia was completely segregated at the time. And these ladies and a few gentlemen are all africanamerican cousins. They wereoing same work, but in a different section. A the records are, i want to say missing. I tried to get a hold of them the field there said, we cant come up with them right now. Maybe in a years time. Stuff does get misfiled. Ive worked in top secret in the archives. Stuff does get lost. And then some stuff gets shredded and burned. So you dont know which road theyve down. I feel based on just gut instinct alone, that there is at least masters, if not a doctorate, waiting to be written on this africanamerican section at Arlington Hall. Very dedicated. And they werent technically spies behind enemy lines, but the work that they did was as critically important to bringing about victory. And what im trying do tonight, both on this side of the pond and the other side of the pond, is to have you realize that you need everybody working together as a team. I was born in an Army Hospital and raised on army post. And believe me, youre taught from day one. Youre a member of a team. Excel on your own. Yes. But only as member of a team. So it takes the people back here at Arlington Hall, as well as people out in the field doing their espionage best, such as this lady here from a town just north of us, baltimo i kn have one retati here tonight from th distinguished town. And this is virginia hall, born in 1906,earsfterallace simpson is born up there. There was something obviously in the water because ia hall was uncontrollable. Her family and as g won, she went off and, joined the foreign service. But she was heavily discriminated against because she was a woman. She went out field honey. One day accidentally. Blew off her lower left leg. So she was a w. A wooden prosthesis didnt slow her down a bit. She was e had grit. And then some. She goes work for m churchills. So we special Operations Executive in vichy france, and she has a very good sixth sense. If you. And she finds out that the gestapo was about to come and get her. So she takes cuthbert her wooden leg. And she walks 50 miles through the pyrenees mountains in the middle of a snowstorm to get to neutral spain. She then cable is the british Contact Office in london saying, i am now in spain. But cuthbert gave a lot of problems and they cable back should crews. Not realizing it was her wouldnt like she is gutsy. So in fearless brave she goes back into occupied france for oasis. You see there their original insignia there. And while bill donovan General Donovan sends in and she does a magnificent job of espionage and then she comes at the end of the war, he wants her to be given a medal at thehite by president truman. She says no, i want stay undercover and continue my work atever it may so he presents her with the army, distinguished service cross. Privately inffic which the photograph here on the right ut instinct havin 41 years and several seven federal agencies. My gutnstit is had she been a man and in uniform, sh would have gotten the of honor. And i think somebody should really seriously look into that. She was in career edible General Donovan, who won the medal of honor in the first war. General donovan called her the finest espionage agent in all of World War Two. That worked for the ss very, very, very high recommendation. Here is someone i met when i was 12 years old, figuratively speaking, because that is when this fabulous book air me out and i have my copy over here on the table. I read it when i was and totally captive by it. It was the first book to come out on pnterpretation analysis in the form of intelligence and what it meant. It meantifference between dday being and not launched and s all to this fabulous hero, oto interpretation. Constance Babington Smith she has three things going for her. Number one, shes from a tit english family, which means everything across pond. Number two, her brother also works in photo analysis. And then the same overall area so he can back her. Number three she looks like she came out of central casting from hollywood and she was in aviation having become aviation buff in the 1930s as a young woman. When Amelia Earhart is flying in and june cochran and and all of these women are in the group that will eventually called the 99 ers. And she is just really an expert on early aviation. She notices something on one of her skirt, stereoscopic views. And theyre looking down like this and thats the illustration here. Now is fuzzy i wish i could have i couldnt. Opy. But that is the v one the buzz bomb. 1965. This is shown the movie George Peppard and sophia loren. Operation ow. And theres also a book by that name i mentioned, the movie becae. Sure. It now its a british. So its better than american movies, especially at the time. But the interesting point here on constance Babington Smith, they show the hardheaded wooden blockheads, she has to go up against, namely professor lindemann, who is churchills scientific advisor. And he is adamant that she doesnt know what shes talking about, that he does. And thats a torpedo, a 30 foot long german torpedo. Well, professor lindemann, ive dealt with those people for 41 years. Its not fun. Theyre a pain that a pill cant reach because are god and they know it. And theyre going to let you know it. And its their way or no way. Well, again, shes titled. She has a brother who looks like he came out of central casting and works in the same general area. And she presents her theory over and over. She sticks her guns. And this is critical because it finally gets to mr. Churchill, as youll in the movie. And he the entire Royal Air Force Bomber Command 800 plus to fly from england over panama and on the North Central german baltic coast and bomb the secret base there. They do so, causing great havoc, great casualties. And it causes the nazi rocket project to go underground down into central germany and southern germany in the hearts mountains and in the four alps. And why is this so important this evening . Because general eisenhower, our when asked the war about the importance of the raid on panama, india said it delayed the german Rocket Program six months in august of 1943. Is the raid if that raid had occurred when it did, the germans would have had literally thousands of these v rockets going into the ports in southern england where the invasion fleet was gathered south hampton, plymouth, etc. And those young men you saw in the first slide going on the troop ships to get ready to go onto the landing boats would have been fishing a barrel and they would have been slaughtered and no invasion have taken place all due to this one woman sticking to her guns. We need some more people like that today. But she didnt do it by herself. There was a whole team in england at bletchley park. Now. If you look at the slide in the upper corner here, you think, well, its a pretty decent place e whole they didnt work there. Thats for the lord high monkey mucks. for visitors coming in to be shown around. This is where they worked unheated huts. Unheated huts. No key, no a and they worked eight hour shifts, three shifts day ye from september, 365 days a of 1939 until september of 1945, when vj declared. Grit. It takt to go in there every day and put in eight hour takes perseverance. I had the distinct honor an privilege to have a lunch at fort myer with one of the la that worked at bletchley park. She was a scots woman. I want t hern a dark ley. We were talking. Of course. All i was doing was asking a few questions. And then i would her go forth. And one time she stops, looks at me and she gets this very intense look on her face, burning eyes are like being eyes of lasers. And she pounds on the lunch table and goes, we did it before and we can do it again. Hey, works for me. So that was the spirit of bletchley park. Here you the group of women working. There were some men working there too. But the majority were women. And in the lower right corner, what were they working on . The enigma machine. I fool around with an enigma machine before you ever try lift one up. Make certain eaten your s like gold. Itay look small. Excuse me. Small. Liketabl typriter or. Its heavy is led. The germans thought, they were unbreakable. But as you would see in the movie, the imitation game came out in 2014. Again, a superior british movie. I hate to think what it would look like if hollywood did it and see. Of course, their focus is on alan turing. But there were a huge amount of women working there day and night doing this. Now we will come to mr. Churchills special Operations Executive for war heroes of the suite. And that book came out a number ears ago. Ou may have to go to ebay to pick it up. The first lady here onour left is violet, and im going to mispronounce ball, i believe she was courageo beyondief. And she got picked up early in occupiede. Now ip early in occupied france . She asked, a b piper cub size aircraft in the middle of the night fly over the channel and get into a darkened field somewhere in france, hoping to god that her contacts are down there to greet her and not the gestapo. The ss. I mean, thats incredibly in and of itself. And then shes a courier. Shes radio transmitter, and they catch her. Heres why ive included her for dday. She never. Just absolutely incredibly courageous. She never gave away any of the secrets of the so agents and. Operatives in occupied france. So the gestapo and the sick or einsteins and the ss who they were, they executed her at ravensbruck concentrate in camp. The british made a nice movie about her in 1958 and its called carve her name with meaning on a monument and i would recommend it. Its a little dated, yes, but gives you what the hair is a german word or high. The spirit of the times. Much better than a movie made today think would do. The next hero. Is a lady who has an america mother from new mexico and her father is from ind and noor khan was princess through her side of the family. And she, like violet sabol, was also 23 years old and she stood five foot nd she was this courageous. Mrs. Violet sabol tragically on, her second night drop into occupince and again, you get in an airplane on a darkened airfield somewhere in england. They fly you over the channel. You dont know if youre going to get shot down. Then they drop you over a darkened somewhere in france and you hope to god youre going to get friends at the bottom of that drop. She did, but one of them wasnt a friend. One of them was a counterintelligence agent for the gestapo, and he betrayed her. They took her prisoner and she ended up never talking, no matter how brutal. They were with her. No matter what the torture and they executed her along with two of her comrades at dachau. Its because of this type of courage that the rest of the underground movements throughout europe and in particular france were not betrayed and therefore enabled dday to go forth and. This lady here is cecile witherinhats close. It may not be exact. And she was a master at blowing up trains where she got this specialty from. I know, but there is a very recently called charlotte gray. And i would highly recommend it. She blew up 800 train loads of german supplies in france as phenomenal. Mber, 700 tons of supplies per, day per division. So if you blowing up 800 train loads of supplies over a period of time, think of the divisions not getting their ammunition, not getting their food, not getting their replacement equipment, not getting their tanks there, artillery pieces, etc. She escaped and survived the war and was a fabulous spy, linguist, specialist. They couldnt tell her french accent from a native of france, a a lot of these women were brilliant linguist. The last lady here. Is somebody that needs to have an individual movie made about her the gestapo. Tried to g her for four and she escaped every time. So they called her the white and that is the title of her biography, the white mouse. Here is nancy wake. Shes originally from new zealand. Great group of people i worked with some in the pentagon, and then she was raised in australia. Fosters beer yes, fabulous people. The aussies are well, nancy wake said whenever she had to travel france and remember shes 2021 she would make sure to put on her perfume her makeup nice clothes for traveling and have a drink. So when the regular german army guards would stop her at a roadblock, they could smell. She had been drinking, but she was also great at flirting them. So they got to know her on her regular runs so they would see her comments. Great, we can relax. We can flirt. Weve got a pretty french etc. She got away with everything as long as she was there and escaped and got all the back to england. All of these ladies were highly decorated. Oh, i forgot to mention on princess noor. There is a tv series made in britain about her and that is titled spy princess and its rather recent. I mean, very recently within the past years. So that would be well looking into, if youre interested. This lady is simon kwong. I again pronunciation excuse me. She waa mber of the en underground and she became the darling of robert cappa o magazine photo and of george stevens, the great hollywood director, because they ran across her athey were liberating france and she became their poste fir in life magazine in two issues in september of 1944 and then stens has her quite prominently a few times in his from dday blin. Color film, movie that he did on his exploits how showed general eisenhower how to win the war europe. Whdo i have eye care when were talking about female spies . Were go goack to poleon and remember his quotation in a gy is worth 20,000 soldiers, a division in his time was 10,000. Thats two divisions. I was asked how important the french underground were to the liberation of france and the freeing of all western europe afterwards, he immediately replied. They were worth 40,000 soldiers. Thats the equivalent to two divisions in World War Two time frame. 20,000 soldiers per division. As a sidelight, youd be interested to know the tall lanky lieutenant that hes talking to survived and went back h penylvania to run aas stion. And every member of the 101st airborne. Anhe photo of that could be identified turns survi lucky photograph. And now were going to ha final four final slide and the final slide and caps eights everything were here to tonight to honor and i think its done by the one man who like many of these women stood alone and he did it in 1940 when nobody else was doing it. Ill get out of the way so you can t ov there. Of course, i never got. R. Hill, but his first cousin at maine state when i was working top secret there inand 73 and occasional only. Uld see him walking out of maine state down to the bus stop on lower constitution avenue. He would swear, god, you were seeing a double and he was deliberately out to me by some of the old timers there. They said, if youll stand here and watch at a certain time, monday through friday, youll see churchills first cousin and youll think youll seeing him. And they were right. It quite a fabulous, to say the least. That is the for this evening. Im open for q and a with go please go to the mic. You can ask about the program. You can ask about programs. You can ask about World War Two. You can ask about having to deal the federal bureaucracy. And you can ask about all the spy locations around washington within 200 feet of where youre now sitting or to cold war secret army office. So its all around you, ladies and gentlemen, whether youre aware of it or not, every time you turn a corner around washington, theres a spook there. Theres c. I was going to say, lets go to the mike to wait for the lady with the mp 40 submachine gun there. Her is simon. So google matzo boku yeah thats how you thank you really appreciate that. Apparently your dad was a decorated soldier the First World War french soldier. It runs in the family. How interesting. Theres a lot of Family Connection in all of this. Thank you so much for the lecture. I kind of want to i was kind of interested in your thoughts on Josephine Baker as a spy during the war to Josephine Baker was hollywood central casting. Of course, she was beyond beautiful. She was beyond talented. She was a fabulous spy. As long as her health held up, she spied for the allies against vichy french throughout 1940 and 41. And then she had series of catastrophic illnesses. The likes of which, having gone through seven heart operations. I dont know how she went through what she did and she still survived. Gutsy is is nowhere close to describe her but she did not have a role far as ive been able to determine. She did not have a role in regards to dday. I say that with a caveat files are still classified. God help you if you try to work in english files. They have a 75 year rule automatic and then they can expand it. Another years beyond. I can tell you working top secret in our national archives, the. That things are misfiled honestly misfiled somebodys having a bad day and ill chuck it im home poof it into the wrong file or somebody says thats got to remain off it goes. When i was working top secret in one of those huge vaults like you see in diana jones, raiders of the lost ark, they honestly exist not that far from here. And we would do that and we would run across ultra. This is before declassified. Wed have to automatically our hand and a team leader would come in with clearances above my top secret. God only knows they were, but they were there. And he would come and he would take the document out of the file. He would put in a blank page stamp it the document removed by so and so, such and such a days such and such a time. And then he and i would have to walk over to a safe that looked like something out of a james bond movie. And he would say now have to look away while i it up. And he would open it up. Herb and the big six, seven inch steel door would open. And hed say, okay, look back, look back. And hed say, now i want you to note i am putting the document in here. And then the safe doors closing, and wed have to sign off and dated and do everything but a blood test and how careful we were with that stuff. So on. Josephine baker theres a wonderful biography on her. She had courage and grit. Again, grit just to withstand the physical trauma to her body and, all that she went through and yet she came through with flying colors and she, like seamen, whom ill touch on in a minute. She back and she adopted 12 children, and there had been abandon and took care of them and raised them, which i think is just an example for. Everyone similar on the one who became the poster girl for life magazine and george stevens. She became a pediatric after the war, which is quite wonderful. So service to others i think its in these peoples dna. Yes, sir. I wonder if youd comment the roles of hedy lamarr and perhaps Marlene Dietrich in terms of intelligence, or are contribution Marlene Dietrich worked for us as and of course, being a native german and she could listen in on german conversations on the radio and tell you exactly that there are many different german dialects. Forget the hollywood dialects. Theres high, middle, low german, then theres spanish, which is where i come from. And stuttgart, having been born an Army Hospital there and theres which is what they speak in bavaria. And then they got other linguistic twist and turns from the rhineland and every little enclave of germany. That time had its own linguist dialect, and she would be able listen to that and tell you. Thats a native speaker or thats somebody trying to fake it and oh, what did they mean by using that colloquial expression like sick or einsteins . Okay, thats the security service. But how about . Fingers. Fingers you feel you can feel the battlefield danger, your fingertips, which is what they said about rummel. Now, interestingly and then ill get the hedy lamarr, interestingly enough, hitlers original foreign secretary was brought over here to just outside of alexandria bush hill, right along eisenhower avenue today between eisenhower avenue and the beltway at the west end of alexandria bush hill plantation. And thats where they put hitlers press secretary when he fled nazi germany because he thought the inner circle of the nazis were trying to get him. Every time hitler would give public speech, fdr would have them put in the trunk of a car, army staff car, brought over to the white house. And they would sit there and listen. Hitler give his public speech. And fdr, who was fluent in basic german, would ask him, is that really hitlers voice . What does he mean by that . Because remember, hitler was from the from now on in which is down there on the austria and german border in bavaria. He had a lot of local dialects. He had a lot of expressions that they only use locally. And he say to him, what does hitler mean by that . So he was able to give him the real score of what was going on in hitlers mind in his public speech. Now, hedy lamarr or was from austria, she was married to munitions tycoon. She escaped way beforehand and to hollywood. Not only was she beyond beautiful, she was beyond smart. I dont think they measure her iq. She invented that pulsating. Radar transom mission. And its absolutely incredible because i am worthless when comes to technology and i stand in complete of people like that. And she just sat down one day with a counterpart and the two of them together worked it out. But because she was a female well, you know, she didnt get any credit for it at the time and she still really hasnt gotten full appreciation what she did. If congress was to strike another congressional gold medal, which is not the same as the medal of honor, by the way, but if they were to do another gold medal, certain people and their contract ution to the war effort, she should certainly be there. It was for the allies to know exactly what was happening with the atlantic, but without giving away the fact that they were concentrating normandy. I would like pay tribute to the hundreds of nameless people, predominantly women who reported on every single change they saw as they deliberately made their way along the coastline. If the german engineers moved to telegraph pole, it got reported. If they moved a bus stop it got reported and there were hundreds of these people sending back these little bits of information on what made up the atlantic wall. Yes. And theyre nameless today, but i think they theres still time for them to be recognize. I am Firm Believer that a monument should go up to all of those who serve the of freedom in france but are nameless just as a matter of fact when they on the fdr series last night and they talked to fdr the tragic negative cost of bombing in france. And he looked at, i think was general marshall and he said, yes, i understand be civilian casualties. France lost. 40,000 civil aliens killed by allied bombardment from the air. It was the cost of liberation and board stoically and there should be a monument to those individuals also theres still Time Next Year the 80th anniversary. There are still a few survivors left and there are many family members still left that would like to see that done. I think it would be very fitting to do both. Any questions on the bureaucracy and how to deal with them in washington. Well, thank you for your kind attention tonight